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Old
02-14-2010, 03:04 PM
  #76
E = CH²
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Well, another way of looking at it is that despite many, many other injuries, the Habs are 14-8-3 with Markov in the lineup, and he wasn't even at his BEST.

That's on pace for over 100 points, and like I said, there were still a RIDICULOUS number of injuries we played through during those 25 games.
Yes the habs have had injuries, but it's important to remember that most teams go through injuries like we had to. Some teams battle and come out of it alright. The good teams do. The bad teams are where they're at. Senators went through a pretty rough time too. Look where they're at now. You can't explain the position the habs are in right now just with injuries (us being 8th, with the 9th, 10th and 11th team in better position than we are due to games in hand).

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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
To help give us the tools to build the team up even further, I advocate getting 5 more picks or decent prospects by trading between now and the deadline:

Metropolit
Mara
D'Agostini
Spacek
Bergeron

If Spacek doesn't happen, keep trying, we have more time in his case. If we can't move Spacek, then as a last resort, I would accept moving Hamrlik, but on condition that we MUST use some of the money saved to find a strong #2 to Markov. A D-corps with Spacek and Gorges as #2 and #3 just won't cut it.
I agree 100% with that assessment. I feel that would be the thing to do atm all things considered.

I also agree with your intentions regarding hammer. It would be unwise to move the guy right now if we still intend to make the playoffs.

A lot of the guys you named would probably not be of interest to any contenders however. Who would want d'agostini or bergeron?

I guess a team could use Mara/Metro as depth guys in case of injuries.

I believe those guys would be difficult to move at the deadline. Maybe a couple of them, but all of them would be quite the feat.

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Old
02-14-2010, 04:06 PM
  #77
TheBuriedHab
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Hamrlik is 35 years old; you are right. But he is also a legit and solid top4 D. And you must also remember that some teams, like TB, are having difficulties to respect the lower limit.

Because of a guy like Subban, moving Hamrlik or Spacek (with youth and in return of a big forward), during the off season is not only doable: it’s a likely scenario imo.


Edit: I just noticed E = CH²'s post... I agree with him!
Uhh what? TB is at 50 million in payroll so that point is wrong. He is a legit top 4d but 3 years ago we were the highest bidder. If no team thought he was worth 5.5 mill back then what makes you think they are gonna give assets to get him now? Now that the cap is not rising, Teams are going to be a lot more carefull of what type of salaries they take on. 5.5 is a big hit.

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Old
02-14-2010, 04:15 PM
  #78
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You keep this core

Forwards:

Pouliot-Gomez-Gionta
A.K-Pleks-Cammy
Moen-Moore-S.K
X -Lapierre - X

You get big,hard nosed players who can fight and chip in for your 4th line. (Artuykin(sp?),Rypien,etc. These type of players)

Defence:

Markov-O'byrne
Spacek-Subban
Gill-Gorges

Defensivly I think were good.

Goalie:
Price
Veteran back-up

We trade/get rid of
-Halak
-Hamrlik
-Mara
-Metro
-D'ags

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Old
02-14-2010, 05:54 PM
  #79
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The correct thing to do is fire Martin. This team is actually pretty decent with the players we have - the problem is this crap system that does not work in today's NHL. The fact that Martin teams are always in the top 5 of penalties taken shows all you need to know. The simple fact that the Habs play passively means they are chasing and that equals lots of penalties. How do you expect to survive in today's NHL doing that?

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Old
02-14-2010, 06:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Smoopok View Post
Uhh what? TB is at 50 million in payroll so that point is wrong. He is a legit top 4d but 3 years ago we were the highest bidder. If no team thought he was worth 5.5 mill back then what makes you think they are gonna give assets to get him now? Now that the cap is not rising, Teams are going to be a lot more carefull of what type of salaries they take on. 5.5 is a big hit.
Yeah you're failing to consider the fact no team thought Hammer was worth 5.5M for 4 years. That's an entirely different matter than 5.5M for remainder of the year + next. It completely changes the value of the player. You're clueless, go away.

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Old
02-14-2010, 06:11 PM
  #81
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoopok View Post
Uhh what? TB is at 50 million in payroll so that point is wrong. He is a legit top 4d but 3 years ago we were the highest bidder. If no team thought he was worth 5.5 mill back then what makes you think they are gonna give assets to get him now? Now that the cap is not rising, Teams are going to be a lot more carefull of what type of salaries they take on. 5.5 is a big hit.

Ok... please replace "TB" (I did not notice that they were operating 10M$ above the lower limit; it was not the case 1-2 years ago... I think!) by:

"Some NHL teams are having financial difficulties so respecting the lower limit is not, contrary to Montreal, an 'automatic' for everyone and it sometimes involves M$ in deficit. For these teams, moving a front loaded contract (high salary) for a player with a similar cap hit but a much lower salary, become very interesting."

For instance... I don't know... (yes... I do have a "not so hidden agenda"! ), if the Habs send Hamrlik + youth + xyz to TB in return of 6'4" 223 pnds Lecavalier, TB would save 4,5M$ in salary while staying, because of their similar cap hits, higher than the lower limit.

So that's one way to look at it (you think Hamrlik is "unmovable"; I think he is very movable): if necessary, Hamrlik can be move, to a financially struggling team, for a player with a front loaded contract.

That being mentioned (and back to: Hamrlik: moveable or not?), you are right: 5,5M$ - only one year left to his contract though - is a big hit. However... how much is worth a solid 6'2", top 4, 30-40 points/season D with experience in your opinion Smoopok?


PS A reminder: because right-handed puck moving Subban is the real deal, I think (and hope!) they will make room for him in 2010-11. I have nothing against Roman "The Stabilizer" Hamrlik but, if I were the GM, I would try to ship Hamrlik or Spacek out during the off season; ideally, in a package that would include "youth" for a forward with size.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-14-2010 at 06:24 PM.
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Old
02-14-2010, 07:41 PM
  #82
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This team is closer than you think.

The bottom 6 need to be overhauled. I'd keep Moen, Moore (I wish he had an extra year left on his contract) and Lapierre. The rest could go. I like Sergei, but I don't think he fits anywhere. Either he's in the top 6 or I trade him. I want an angry team. I'd get a goon who can pot the odd goal but can actually skate. The problem with Laraque is he couldn't skate and had 0 offensive ability. I'd also like a Scott Harntell type to play on the 3rd line. I hate how this team is so passive and soft. 3rd and 4th lines need to hit, shut down the top lines and generate a bit of offense.

I'd overhaul the D core. I'd trade either Spacek or Hamr at the deadline for a pick and/or a young unproven/underachieving defenceman. I'd trade the other during the offseason/at the draft for a pick/and or a prospect.

The last move I'd make to shore up the defense is to sign a mid-range free agent d-man. I don't care about the offensive numbers, just a solid, ROUGH, defenceman.

Halak would get traded... I'd like to bring in a competent veteran who could either start or play half the games. I wouldn't give up on price just yet.

Martin would be on a short leash. If the team struggles out the gate, he's gone.

Pouliot-Gomez-Gionta
A.K-Pleks-Cammy
Moen-Moore-(Hartnell type player)
(Goon who can skate) -Lapierre - White

Markov-O'byrne
(Tough, stay at home d-man)-Subban
Gill-Gorges

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Yeah you're failing to consider the fact no team thought Hammer was worth 5.5M for 4 years. That's an entirely different matter than 5.5M for remainder of the year + next. It completely changes the value of the player. You're clueless, go away.
Yeah that was also when the Cap was on the rise. And your failing to mention that when he was 3 years younger nobody thought he was worth 5.5 million except us. Your an idiot please leave the boards. I laugh at the fact people think we can just dump our salary problems on other teams. Gainey and Gauthier aren't running all 30 teams...

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:24 PM
  #84
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Dion Phaneuf was made available people. A top pairing 24 year old defenseman making 6.5 million dollars. There was no Bidding war over his services, look at what the flames got, left overs from the leafs. Seeing how that contract was hard to move and given the upside Phaneuf has. It is a different story if you move hammer NEXT deadline. Trust me Your not moving him with a full year left. SORRY.

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:58 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Well, another way of looking at it is that despite many, many other injuries, the Habs are 14-8-3 with Markov in the lineup, and he wasn't even at his BEST.
His return coincided with a seven game stretch against some of the worst teams in the league. Even before that seven game stretch (and Markov's return) most of us predicted that we'd do well and we went 6 for 7 there. No surprise.

And let's be honest here, we get outplayed pretty much every night. We're overly reliant on our goaltending and we just don't really have all that good a team otherwise.

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Old
02-14-2010, 11:19 PM
  #86
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BTW,

On a sidenote, it's good to see that there are some folks here who understand that leaving things as they are and using excuses like injuries will never lead us anywhere.

I liked reading some of the posts in this thread from the folks 'who get it' and want to see us win a cup again someday.

The first step is admitting you have a problem. Some fans are slowly are starting to realize that the team we have is broken and needs to be fixed. I can only hope that management comes to this realization as well.

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Old
02-14-2010, 11:54 PM
  #87
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Get rid of this old, slow D squad. And add grit to the bottom six forwards.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:24 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoopok View Post
Dion Phaneuf was made available people. A top pairing 24 year old defenseman making 6.5 million dollars. There was no Bidding war over his services, look at what the flames got, left overs from the leafs. Seeing how that contract was hard to move and given the upside Phaneuf has. It is a different story if you move hammer NEXT deadline. Trust me Your not moving him with a full year left. SORRY.
Nah, I'm not going to trust you, and you have nothing to be sorry about because Hammer is a good dman that would have a spot on any team in the NHL. Maybe not at 5.5M but I'm 100% positive if we put him on waivers tomorrow, he'd get claimed in a heartbeat. Not that we'd ever do that because it would make little sense to trade our 2nd best dman if we're trying to make the playoffs.

You're undervaluing Hammer's contribution on the ice, and completely missing the point about the length of his contract.

Phaneuf has literally nothing to do with Hammer. They are two different players, with different attitudes, different play style, different strengths, different average salaries and different AMOUNTS OF YEARS LEFT ON THEIR CONTRACT.

If you think 4 years at 5.5M = 1 year at 5.5M, or 5 years at 6.5M = 1 year at 5.5M you're just clueless to the reality of a salary capped league. Not to mention that the salary cap has gone up every single year since Hammer was signed which means his contract is actually smaller every year all things considered. Is hammer still overpaid, yeah. Does that matter a lot to a team that has cap room, and needs a dman for one season ? No. Hammer would be one of the easiest player to move on the habs (we probably wouldn't get a lot for him), but they're not going to move him.

If you want players that would be hard to move, your list should start with Gomez and Gionta.

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:54 AM
  #89
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trade markov. hes our best player but in the end he would bring the best prospects back. build with youth. ol markov wont be in his prime forever

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02-15-2010, 02:06 AM
  #90
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You definitely need to gain some size. The system needs to go as well. Played a much more aggresive system under Carbo and that worked more for the strengths of the players Montreal has/had. Obviously need to gain some depth at D and a good 3rd line to take the pressure off the top lines. I wonder what Pierre is going to do and that is the question. I guess you'll have to wait till the offseason.

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02-15-2010, 02:13 AM
  #91
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I wonder what Pierre is going to do and that is the question. I guess you'll have to wait till the offseason.
Pierre is not going to address problem #1, because he's too close to Martin. Gauthier no doubt had a hand in hiring Jacques Martin, which is unfortunate because as magical as he was with the pre-lockout Sens, his system is wholly inappropriate for the post-lockout game, and singularly inappropriate for the Habs' roster, not that there's a lineup that wouldn't look slow and soft and weak defensively with that crap.

I say we actually try to get an idea of what we've got before we call for it being blown up. And it would be best if people realized that blowing up teams and stinking is done for monetary reasons, not so much for winning reasons, and that it's got about a 20% success rate. The NHL is not junior hockey.

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Old
02-15-2010, 05:35 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Yes the habs have had injuries, but it's important to remember that most teams go through injuries like we had to. Some teams battle and come out of it alright. The good teams do. The bad teams are where they're at. Senators went through a pretty rough time too. Look where they're at now. You can't explain the position the habs are in right now just with injuries (us being 8th, with the 9th, 10th and 11th team in better position than we are due to games in hand).

I sincerily don't agree. The Habs have been 15-8-3 with Markov in the lineup, which is about the same win% average the team's had with Markov in the lineup since the 05-06 season and on the opposite side, the team's been 14-20-3 without him, as in the past, the team was never able to play ,500 hockey without Markov, he's that important. And in those 26 games with Markov, we had other injuries. The Habs have had more injuries than most of the teams out there. 3 out of our 4 best snipers are out at the moment, all 4 of them will have missed 20+ games each this season. The defense has had more games missed than any other team, look it up.

I have no doubt that a healthy Habs team could do very well, and even better if Subban can keep it up.

The only things we need to change are inevitable anyway, as Mara, Gill, Hammer and Spacek will all be gone in a matter of 2 years, but the remaining core is very solid, what will determine how good we will be, is to see how the void will be filled. But already having Markov, Subban, Gorges and O'byrne to work with, what could be added could turn us into a dominant team, as we'll have plenty of money to go around with the 13 mil of cap space the other guys will leave behind.

The injury bug is bound to have a let down somewhen.

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Old
02-15-2010, 07:40 AM
  #93
TheBuriedHab
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Nah, I'm not going to trust you, and you have nothing to be sorry about because Hammer is a good dman that would have a spot on any team in the NHL. Maybe not at 5.5M but I'm 100% positive if we put him on waivers tomorrow, he'd get claimed in a heartbeat. Not that we'd ever do that because it would make little sense to trade our 2nd best dman if we're trying to make the playoffs.

You're undervaluing Hammer's contribution on the ice, and completely missing the point about the length of his contract.

Phaneuf has literally nothing to do with Hammer. They are two different players, with different attitudes, different play style, different strengths, different average salaries and different AMOUNTS OF YEARS LEFT ON THEIR CONTRACT.

If you think 4 years at 5.5M = 1 year at 5.5M, or 5 years at 6.5M = 1 year at 5.5M you're just clueless to the reality of a salary capped league. Not to mention that the salary cap has gone up every single year since Hammer was signed which means his contract is actually smaller every year all things considered. Is hammer still overpaid, yeah. Does that matter a lot to a team that has cap room, and needs a dman for one season ? No. Hammer would be one of the easiest player to move on the habs (we probably wouldn't get a lot for him), but they're not going to move him.

If you want players that would be hard to move, your list should start with Gomez and Gionta.
Ok, I'd like to see a list of 30+ year old dmen with 5 mill + contracts getting moved i'd really like to see it. I can only think of Pavel Kubina. So call me when they move him in the offseason. Won't be holding my breath.


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Old
02-15-2010, 07:47 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Edwin Valero View Post
Goalie Situation:

Trade Carey Price, I really like Carey but I dont think he does well under the Canadiens atmosphere and will prosper somewhere else. Jaroslav Halak has repeadidly shown he deserves the #1 spot and Montreal can benefit more if they trade Price (value wise)

Defence

Trade away all the big slow and old defence. Get rid of all the older guys and make this a young mans team and build an identity on it

Forwards


Again, trade away all the older guys for PICKS .... build from the draft and young guys. Keep guys like Cammelleri though. Build it around Cammelleri and Subban and Halak.



Price need to be moved and will prosper somewhere else.





Please!!!
Price is getting everything he needs. This season he is getting pushed by Halak...which was what he needed 2 years ago instead of trading away Huet. It's going to be easier for Subban to develop elswhere also, should we trade him away too?

All you HF "blow it up" fans don't live in the real world. NHL GM's don't even have this option unless their team is 10 oir more points out of the playoffs at the deadline.

When you consider all the injuries this team had had and the fact that they still sit in a playoff spot after 60+ games is nothing short of heroic...but "loyal" Hab fans want to "blow it up" and trade everybody away. I guess we have quite the fans in Montreal.

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02-15-2010, 07:52 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by walsy37 View Post
The correct thing to do is fire Martin. This team is actually pretty decent with the players we have - the problem is this crap system that does not work in today's NHL. The fact that Martin teams are always in the top 5 of penalties taken shows all you need to know. The simple fact that the Habs play passively means they are chasing and that equals lots of penalties. How do you expect to survive in today's NHL doing that?
As much as I hate knee-jerk moves...I hate Martin's coaching style even more. Maybe it works fine for bland teams with no skill, but in the brief time the team has been mostly heatlthy, it's apparent that this system is outdated and antiquated. I have to agree with your post.

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Old
02-15-2010, 08:17 AM
  #96
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If E = CH² can put together an exciting team that will still fill up Centre Bell, while being bad enough to ensure the #1 or 2 pick in the draft for a few years in a row, be certain that in those years the Habs are going to be able to get a Crosby or Malkin, then start a new dynasty, he should be a GM in the NHL, not a HF Boards poster.

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02-15-2010, 08:59 AM
  #97
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I don't understand why no one can see that the problem with the Habs is the coaching style and the defense.
This "puck possession" coaching system does not work with the calibre of players that are currently on the team.

Carey Price is the future of the Habs. Sure he's let in some bad goals but he's still to young to call a bust. Marc Andre-Fleury was BRUTAL for the Pens, up until a 2 years ago, when they decided "we need some d-men."

The Habs will not win a cup in the future with the given mentality they have. The fans and media need to get off the players backs.

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02-15-2010, 09:01 AM
  #98
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I wonder what it would take to rebuild the fan-base....

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Old
02-15-2010, 09:08 AM
  #99
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the problem with our team is that it's full of big ass contracts that are overypayments , making trades almost impossible.

Even if we wanted to blow up this team, who's going to take Spacek, Gionta, Gomez... even Cam is overpaid by a good million imo. Hamrlik might be movable considering he only has 1 year left.

Markov is are only big name that we could probably move for the deadline... Not saying I would, but that's reality.

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Old
02-15-2010, 09:21 AM
  #100
ChuckyToGally
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Originally Posted by Edwin Valero View Post
trade markov. hes our best player but in the end he would bring the best prospects back. build with youth. ol markov wont be in his prime forever
There's a reason people ignored your post the first time... no need to repeat the same thing!

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