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Value of Kubina to Ottawa

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:25 AM
  #1
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Value of Kubina to Ottawa

Sens need a Dman. what would Atlanta want for this guy?

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02-14-2010, 12:30 AM
  #2
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a lot, he is too important to us if we are to make an attempt and sliding into the 8 spot

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02-14-2010, 12:31 AM
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a 1st rounder +

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02-14-2010, 03:23 AM
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Ottawa would have to overpay. Atlanta is firmly in the playoff hunt, and Kubina is too valuable on the blueline. I don't know if he'll re-sign, but mgmt will likely take the risk that he'll walk in the hopes of snagging the 7th seed to play the Devils

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02-14-2010, 03:37 AM
  #5
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Jason Spezza.

That may give you a clue as to how untouchable Kubina is at this point.

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02-14-2010, 11:42 AM
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Yea, if we had lost the last four, after the Kovy trade, I'd say we'd move him... but 4 points in 4 games against the Caps, Avs, Wild, and Hawks (last three being away games) is a decent effort.

At this point, I think we're willing to "give up" a possible first rounder to keep Kubina around and hope to re-sign him.

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02-15-2010, 02:19 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownvm View Post
... but 4 points in 4 games against the Caps, Avs, Wild, and Hawks (last three being away games) is a decent effort.
Not to mention the big home win against Florida... yeah, I think Kubina is untouchable at this point.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:13 PM
  #8
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He's our next captain.

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:50 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucky17 View Post
He's our next captain.
oh come on

he's been good this year, but in no way does he have as much value as spezza and i highly doubt he is going to be our captain. i really don't think it would be much of a loss to let him go. with kulda and valabik both living up to expectations and oduya playing very well defensively he may be expendable. we already have enstrom, bogosian, oduya, hainsey, and kulda signed for next season and one would assume valabik as well. that's 6 d-men already. if you add kubina who sits? the easy answer would be kulda but then we are just stealing another year of development from him. valalbik? he's played too well before his injury. none of the six guys we already have deserve to be sitting on a consistent basis.

is
enstrom-kubina
hainsey-oduya
bogosian-kulda
valabik
really that much better than
enstrom-oduya
bogosian-kulda
hainsey-valabik

i really don't think so. i want to keep kubina for this year, but i won't be hurt if we don't re-sign him for next year. once valabik is back all he would be is an older player taking a roster spot and ice time from kulda or valabik.

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02-15-2010, 03:01 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
oh come on

he's been good this year, but in no way does he have as much value as spezza and i highly doubt he is going to be our captain. i really don't think it would be much of a loss to let him go. with kulda and valabik both living up to expectations and oduya playing very well defensively he may be expendable. we already have enstrom, bogosian, oduya, hainsey, and kulda signed for next season and one would assume valabik as well. that's 6 d-men already. if you add kubina who sits? the easy answer would be kulda but then we are just stealing another year of development from him. valalbik? he's played too well before his injury. none of the six guys we already have deserve to be sitting on a consistent basis.

is
enstrom-kubina
hainsey-oduya
bogosian-kulda
valabik
really that much better than
enstrom-oduya
bogosian-kulda
hainsey-valabik

i really don't think so. i want to keep kubina for this year, but i won't be hurt if we don't re-sign him for next year. once valabik is back all he would be is an older player taking a roster spot and ice time from kulda or valabik.
Kubina and how well he has played says yes. Yes it is better.

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02-15-2010, 03:04 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Ashe View Post
Kubina and how well he has played says yes. Yes it is better.
maybe for next year, but you have to think about the big picture. is it worth kulda and valabik losing ice time they could be learning with? what happens if in 3 years we are all ready to try and make a cup run but kulda only has a year and a half of experience and is being counted on to be one of our best penalty killers?

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02-15-2010, 03:05 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
is
enstrom-kubina
hainsey-oduya
bogosian-kulda
valabik
really that much better than
enstrom-oduya
bogosian-kulda
hainsey-valabik
Yes...yes it is.

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:07 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
maybe for next year, but you have to think about the big picture. is it worth kulda and valabik losing ice time they could be learning with? what happens if in 3 years we are all ready to try and make a cup run but kulda only has a year and a half of experience and is being counted on to be one of our best penalty killers?
It would be nice to give our top prospects (Vis too) the ice time, but it's not worth letting our top D (yes...Toby too...) walk because you have good prospects. Re-sign him and we have a huge amount of depth at D.

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Old
02-15-2010, 04:00 PM
  #14
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I have to agree with Rhodes a bit. Bogosian will be better, Enstrom will be better, Valabik will be better, Kulda will be better.

Is the lineup better with Kubina? Ofcourse. Is it $5 million dollars better? Not in my opinion, and I still think Kubina will command that on the open market.

I think our money is better spent on either of a stronger netminder or a true #1 centerman. I'd be happiest with both, and the money is there to get it; it's been hard in recent years, though, to get UFA's to come to Atlanta. That said, you'd have to be dense not to see the good we've put together recently, and actually MAKING the playoffs will prove that; particularly without Kovalchuk.

If we make the playoffs without Kovalchuk, we're a trendy UFA spot, in my opinion. Maybe even if we just miss them, like Chicago did two years ago.

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02-15-2010, 05:23 PM
  #15
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(1) It is critical to have the right veteran presence on a playoff team. Don W. made a point that Kubina has presented himself as the leader of the D-men during the Town Hall meeting. He is high on him and is already talking extension.

(2) Quality playoff teams have more than just a starting 6 defensemen. It's called depth. They rotate. With DEPTH, Bogosian can sit upstairs and watch a game when he hurts his wrist, instead of playing like crap with the injury like he did. With depth, the team wouldn't have missed a beat.

This year, we've actually been fortunate with man games lost amongst the main 5. But now, Valabik, Popovic, and Schubert are out. It could easily have been Hainsey and Bogo out.

Next year:

Kubina - Enstrom
Oduya - Hainsey
Bogosian/ Kulda/ Valabik

you earn your playing time like Slater did. JA gets flexibility to play Valabik vs. physical teams and Kulda vs. quick teams.

Until an inevitable injury happens.

Build from the net out, and, we still have Kovy, Zhitnik and Slava money to the tune of 10mil.+ coming off the books.

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Old
02-15-2010, 05:34 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucky17 View Post
(1) It is critical to have the right veteran presence on a playoff team. Don W. made a point that Kubina has presented himself as the leader of the D-men during the Town Hall meeting. He is high on him and is already talking extension.

(2) Quality playoff teams have more than just a starting 6 defensemen. It's called depth. They rotate. With DEPTH, Bogosian can sit upstairs and watch a game when he hurts his wrist, instead of playing like crap with the injury like he did. With depth, the team wouldn't have missed a beat.

This year, we've actually been fortunate with man games lost amongst the main 5. But now, Valabik, Popovic, and Schubert are out. It could easily have been Hainsey and Bogo out.

Next year:

Kubina - Enstrom
Oduya - Hainsey
Bogosian/ Kulda/ Valabik

you earn your playing time like Slater did. JA gets flexibility to play Valabik vs. physical teams and Kulda vs. quick teams.

Until an inevitable injury happens.

Build from the net out, and, we still have Kovy, Zhitnik and Slava money to the tune of 10mil.+ coming off the books.
Would I rather have Kubina sign....yes, but short of Hainsey getting traded, I would rather see him walk at the end of the year. Yes depth is great, but too much depth can also hurt an organization. From what I have read on several boards, the perception is that if Vish doesn't make the big team next season he would likely go back to Russia and play in the KHL. I really don't want to lose a good looking young defenseman because we have too much depth. I don't think Kulda, or Valabik, or Vish want to spend another season in the AHL. None of the 3 have anything to prove at that level and we can't carry 8 defenseman. So outside of trading Vish, Boris, or Kulda.......I don't see how we can keep Kubina without losing one of those 3 young talented defenseman. Hainsey, Toby, and Oduya will have to take up the veteran slack. I think signing Kubina creates more problems than it solves in my opinion.

With your strategy in mind

Enstrom-Oduya
Bogo-Kulda
Hainsey-Valabik(physical team)/Vish (speed team)

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Old
02-15-2010, 05:35 PM
  #17
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I understand what you're saying, but when you have an ownership that, currently, is unwilling to spend to the Cap, you are going to have to use AHL guys to fill those depth roles and cross your fingers. We, usually, average about $10 Mill below the cap. If we were spending even half that, I wouldn't be arguing with you, but the fact is we lack a True number one center. Hell, we've only had ONE in the franchise's existence, really.

If we intended to use some of that $10 Mil to go after Olli Jokinen or Patrick Marleau this summer, I'd be all for re-signing Kubina. Really, I AM all for it... but the reality is that our ownership, as we are financially, simply won't be putting the money up for an elite Center if we spend it on Kubina.

Now, I realize that Antropov and his 40% in the faceoff circle has been playing Center this year, but I don't count him. He wasn't playing Center for Toronto before us.

In the end, if Kubina wants to stay, we're probably going to keep him. We'll stick with Antropov, and probably throw some money at Ponikarovsky, Tanguay, someone like that. We'll take a chance on a goalie: Biron, Emery, Turco, Theodore.

And while our goalie situation will certainly have improved, I just haven't decided how I feel about this configuration. Bergfors will be an asset, but we still have to replace 20 goals between his likely output and Kovalchuk's, and that only gets us to the point we're at now.

I guess, if we can get Ponikarovsky for 4, and a Torres for 3, Turco for 3, that still leaves us $10 Mil for 8 more role players. We'll see. It's fun to speculate, though.

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02-15-2010, 05:59 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownvm View Post
I understand what you're saying, but when you have an ownership that, currently, is unwilling to spend to the Cap, you are going to have to use AHL guys to fill those depth roles and cross your fingers. We, usually, average about $10 Mill below the cap. If we were spending even half that, I wouldn't be arguing with you, but the fact is we lack a True number one center. Hell, we've only had ONE in the franchise's existence, really.

If we intended to use some of that $10 Mil to go after Olli Jokinen or Patrick Marleau this summer, I'd be all for re-signing Kubina. Really, I AM all for it... but the reality is that our ownership, as we are financially, simply won't be putting the money up for an elite Center if we spend it on Kubina.

Now, I realize that Antropov and his 40% in the faceoff circle has been playing Center this year, but I don't count him. He wasn't playing Center for Toronto before us.

In the end, if Kubina wants to stay, we're probably going to keep him. We'll stick with Antropov, and probably throw some money at Ponikarovsky, Tanguay, someone like that. We'll take a chance on a goalie: Biron, Emery, Turco, Theodore.

And while our goalie situation will certainly have improved, I just haven't decided how I feel about this configuration. Bergfors will be an asset, but we still have to replace 20 goals between his likely output and Kovalchuk's, and that only gets us to the point we're at now.

I guess, if we can get Ponikarovsky for 4, and a Torres for 3, Turco for 3, that still leaves us $10 Mil for 8 more role players. We'll see. It's fun to speculate, though.
Anh, again its where the team needs translate to where to spend. Bottom 6, center, and defense are honestly not needs. Goalie, depending on if the club resigns Moose and Top 6 scoring wing to play with Pevs and most likely opposite Kane is the biggest need.

I have no desire to trade Kubina, I think the team will honestly miss his presence more than Kovy's if he were traded as we attempt to make the playoffs. With that said, I am on the side of letting him walk at the end of the season and promoting some of our young up and comers before we lose them.

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Old
02-15-2010, 06:11 PM
  #19
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Ponikarovsky is a top-six scoring winger, that's why I mentioned him. Quite simply, I have a hard time believing we're going to be able to land any of the big boys. And, though no one has agreed with me yet, Antropov is no good at center. The only reason he's ever been put there is because he's responsible defensively. He's terrible at faceoffs, which is frustrating. Maybe Little should take faceoffs and just shift to wing during the play? Zetterberg does that when playing with Datsyuk.

And I agree with you about where to spend, that's why I suggested trading/not re-signing Kubina. Just doesn't make sense, financially.

Patrick Marleau would do more for this team than Kovalchuk ever did. I realize he's played a lot of wing this year, but he's a natural Center. I'm not getting my hopes up that we land him, but I can dream.

Ideally, we need a #1 Center. Realistically, they think Antropov fills that role, so instead we're looking for a Top-6 forward. I suggested Ponikarovsky because Antro played well with him in Toronto.

Assuming he costs us 4, and we spend 5 on a goalie, that still gives us several million to the Cap floor, and around 11 Million to our self-imposed "budget" area to sign an additional 9 players. I like the way Torres plays, assuming Cormier isn't ready next year, so I suggested him, but I was really just throwing his name out there.

Ideally - Marleau
Realistically - Ponikarovsky

Ideally - Turco/Theodore
Realistically - Biron

Those are the two most pressing needs, in my eyes. I say #1 Center, you say Top-6 forward. We're splitting hairs... Antropov is a Top-6 forward posing as our #1 Centerman. No biggie.

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02-15-2010, 06:43 PM
  #20
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are you kidding me? Valabik is trash he is no where near and never will be as good as Kubina.

Trade Valabik for a 4th while we can. He is not needed with out depth.

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02-15-2010, 07:41 PM
  #21
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are you kidding me? Valabik is trash he is no where near and never will be as good as Kubina.

Trade Valabik for a 4th while we can. He is not needed with out depth.
Valabik has been our best bottom pairing defencemen this year. It sucks injuries have hampered him that we havent got a good look at him. He's proved he right now is a good 6-7 slot defencemen.

I'd much rather have a Proven leader and Vet then Kulda/Vish up right now. Kulda last game would of gotten beat by hossa if it wasnt for armstrongs hit, and could of scored. The kids young, and i think this two game set will see how he translates it to the AHL over the break.

Realistically, We wont be signing a goalie. He's going to re-sign hedberg, and have pavs. Then the year after that, Pav's+AHL dude. We have never spent money on goalies, And with the crop that is out there(Minus nitty) I dont think its worth it either way.

Center? Do we want to pay 8 million for marls(Thats probably what we'd pay to attract him here if we dont hit the post season and make it a 6-7 game series). Im more then fine having antro as our top center, especially with how he has played with Berg and Little.

Right now, We have a top6 spot open, and a bottom 6 for next year(afi will walk/traded / God knows if slater earned himself a contract so it could be more)

If this team is serious about making the playoffs next year, You pay for Kubina's vetern leadership regardless. Do you really want hainsey helping the kids along? Or would you prefer kubina? Easily Kubina. Thats why i say we sign him.


If vish walks back to russia, let him. The kid obviously doesn't realize becoming an NHL defencemen takes time, especially when you lack serious deficiencys in your defensive game.(Which he does)

Kulda could easily be carried as well with valabik next year and rotate them in and out.

Kubina/Estrom
Hainsey/Oduya
Bogo/Kulda/Valabik You arent gaining anything by playing Kulda+Valabik at the same time, They are both young still. And i can imagine an 82 game sched being hard the first go around.

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02-15-2010, 08:01 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by AtlantaSportsFan View Post
are you kidding me? Valabik is trash he is no where near and never will be as good as Kubina.

Trade Valabik for a 4th while we can. He is not needed with out depth.
OK Mike Milbury.....you traded Zdeno Chara after 4 seasons and claimed he was a mistake. Maybe you would still have a job if you hadn't given up on the likes of Chara, Luongo, Bertuzzi, and McCabe. Was ASF giving you suggestions?



Oh c'mon! It's Funny!!!!

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02-16-2010, 12:32 AM
  #23
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for the record i want to keep kubina the rest of the season, but i think it's in our best interest to let him walk later. lets keep in mind who we traded for him. exelby and stuart, two guys who would probably have been gone by this time anyway.

i understand having depth, but that's why we got oduya. unless we are cursed there's no way bogosian is as brutal next season as he is this season, he's just too talented and too smart to be a bust. let's also not forget that hainsey was probably our best d-man last season. or at least the first half of last season. he's a legitimate 2nd pairing d-man. oduya is a guy a lot of us were hoping to sign last offseason. he is a very legitimate 2nd-3rd d-man and is a similar player to kubina(very good defensively and holds his own offensively) but without the lack of speed. valabik was looking good before he went down, and this is coming from a huge detractor of his. kulda has looked very good two games in and i will be interested to see what he does with any more time he get's this season. enstrom is enstrom. if we really need depth we can always re-sign schubert, and he can also fill in at forward making him extra valuable.

as already mentioned, there's such a thing as too much depth. we are not detroit. people will not sit in our depth chart until they are 25 to get a chance to play for us. if they continue to be kept back by 32+ guys getting re-signed they will bolt. we saw it happen last year with lavallee, and reports are that vishnevskiy is khl bound if he doesn't get a shot next season, i'd rather not end up having traded lehtonen for a 4th round draft pick. with kubina our depth chart next season will most likely be
enstrom
bogosian
kubina
oduya
hainsey
valabik
kulda
vishnevskiy
schubert

without
enstrom
bogosian
oduya
hainsey
valabik
kulda
vishnevskiy
schubert

we would still have loads of depth and all of that depth would be legitimate contributors.

think of it this way, if you had
ovechkin-datsyuk-malkin
kovalchuk-crosby-zetterberg
hossa-backstrom-pat kane
and then let's say evander kane in the minors. hossa is the only guy you have not under contract next season. evander kane(kulda/valabik) has been in your minors for a few years and he's your highly touted prospect. hossa(kubina) has been one of your better players this season and has made up for a lack of contribution from your younger and bigger name guys. for some reason despite your ludicrous amount of depth at forward you probably won't be a serious contender for another few years.
if you keep hossa, you might make a good run next year, but after that hossa will be either too old to contribute much or he will have retired/moved to another team. kane meanwhile is pissed that he's still in the minors and has missed out on yet another season of experience. he's behind where he could have been and because of this your serious push is delayed by another year.
or you could make the unpopular decision to let hossa go and bring kane up. kane is happy he got his chance around the time he deserved it and plays well. your team will probably barely squeak into a playoff spot and most likely won't get very far, but kane is now ready experienced and ready to lead your team deep into the playoffs the next year and make a run at the cup. rather than have a pissed off rookie behind schedule you have a seasoned and happy sophomore progressing well.

i know thats a crazy comparison but it's far more similar to our current situation than you might think. sure we could re-sign kubina next year and go farther in the playoffs than we probably would without him, but it would be at the price of vishnevskiy going to the khl, either kulda or valabik losing a ton of ice time they could be gaining experience with, and having kulda/valabik just getting their feet wet while the rest of the team is up to their neck ready to go for the cup. we need to make every move right now thinking about how it impacts us next week and not tomorrow.

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02-16-2010, 01:53 AM
  #24
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I think Shoes is gone regardless after the season. We have younger guys who can take his place on the bottom pairing and do just fine.

I think pairing Hainsey with Valabik/Vish and letting Kulda and Bogo play together next season makes a lot of sense. Then you have Enstrom and Oduya as your top pairing and I think that is a pretty good defense to go into next season with. Kubina is having a good season, but he is on the wrong side of 30 and already slowing down. He has a long reach, a very good grasp of the game, and is a plus positionally. That said, those skills are only going to do so much as father time continues to catch up with him and erode his physical skills....*cough* Kozlov *cough*

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02-16-2010, 12:16 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownvm View Post
Ideally - Turco/Theodore
Realistically - Biron
Turco or Theodore? You realize both of these guys are in their mid-30's and on their last contract, right?

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