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02-16-2010, 05:43 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't disagree with your assessment, but what teams really do have that? Generational players are hard to come by that's why they're generational.

What the Rangers do lack is a guy you can look to and pencil him into a top line forward spot.
Gaborik?

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02-16-2010, 05:43 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't disagree with your assessment, but what teams really do have that? Generational players are hard to come by that's why they're generational.

What the Rangers do lack is a guy you can look to and pencil him into a top line forward spot.
Gaborik

He's a guy who will compete for the Hart, think that's about all you can ask for for you top player realistically

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02-16-2010, 05:45 PM
  #103
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No, no we don't.
That's debatable. Take away the guys already in the NHL, and you'd be hard-pressed to find as diverse and accomplished group as Stepan, Kreider, Grachev, Sanguinetti, Macdongh.

Power forward, playmaking center, two-way skill forward, PP QB and top-2 pairing potential.

I didnt even include, Werek, Bourque, Sauer, Byers and Hagelin, who will get Hobey Baker consideration this year.

Didnt HF rank us 3rd in the NHL in October? I would interpret that as having elite prospects.

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02-16-2010, 05:46 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Gaborik?
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Gaborik

He's a guy who will compete for the Hart, think that's about all you can ask for for you top player realistically
In their farm system.

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02-16-2010, 05:48 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
In their farm system.
Oh okay, see that's why I want a top pick.

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02-16-2010, 05:50 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
In their farm system.
Umm... I hope you're just trying to cover your past mistake, because otherwise you're just making an unfair argument. Name some prospects who you can with no doubt say will achieve their potential in the minors...

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02-16-2010, 05:51 PM
  #107
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Legit blue-chip 80 point forwards are sometimes scarce even high in the first round.

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02-16-2010, 06:04 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Umm... I hope you're just trying to cover your past mistake, because otherwise you're just making an unfair argument. Name some prospects who you can with no doubt say will achieve their potential in the minors...
What are you talking about? Perhaps you need to re-read what I originally wrote.

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02-16-2010, 06:04 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Legit blue-chip 80 point forwards are sometimes scarce even high in the first round.
I agree. That's part of what I'm saying. That said, I just don't see the guy in the farm system than you can say projects out to a top 3 forward.

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02-16-2010, 06:21 PM
  #110
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I agree, Singn'...nobody's really jumping out and leading the league, or his team, by a margin that would suggest this guy is a 30-40 goal scorer/70-80 point getter in the NHL. That doesn't mean one won't become that, but it's a leap given what's known today.

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02-16-2010, 06:29 PM
  #111
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I agree, Singn'...nobody's really jumping out and leading the league, or his team, by a margin that would suggest this guy is a 30-40 goal scorer/70-80 point getter in the NHL. That doesn't mean one won't become that, but it's a leap given what's known today.
I agree. Someone might take that step.

My original point was it's hard to damn the organization for not having a generational player because their aren't many of them.

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02-16-2010, 06:33 PM
  #112
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I'm not sure Tanking is going to result in more success. I understand there's a difference between selecting at 5, instead of 17th. But there is no guarantee that the #5 pick actually develops into a better NHL player.

I think this team needs an overhaul. And that's a shame too, since we seem to be having mini-overhauls every season.

By the time our next 2~3 1st round picks develop into NHL ready players, guys like Drury and Rozsival will be off our roster. If there's an Amnesty buyout too, the Redden problem will be remedied.

The real question is, can Sather properly invest that 20M+ in cap space and build a winning product? I think we have the core necessary to compete against most teams; we just lack talent. Fortunately, NYC is a pretty attractive place to play for, so acquiring talent has never been a problem. It's acquiring the right type of talent.

I have no issues pawning off guys like Prospal, Jokinen, Rozsival, Girardi, and Lisin for picks/prospects. I just don't agree with the 'tank' mentality, when all we need is a good tweak in the right direction, followed by good investments.

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02-16-2010, 06:39 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I agree. Someone might take that step.

My original point was it's hard to damn the organization for not having a generational player because their aren't many of them.
Don't you think we kind of ruin our own fate when a sliding organization like ours didn't go with the rebuild around the time the Ovechkins and Crosbys were coming into draft years? That would've been a good time to get lucky. But I also think if we just played the cards we were dealt and not tried to use the monetary fix to 'stay competitive' we wouldve had a better chance at 'luck'

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02-16-2010, 06:40 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
That's debatable. Take away the guys already in the NHL, and you'd be hard-pressed to find as diverse and accomplished group as Stepan, Kreider, Grachev, Sanguinetti, Macdongh.

Power forward, playmaking center, two-way skill forward, PP QB and top-2 pairing potential.

I didnt even include, Werek, Bourque, Sauer, Byers and Hagelin, who will get Hobey Baker consideration this year.

Didnt HF rank us 3rd in the NHL in October? I would interpret that as having elite prospects.
Elite collectively, meaning very good depth in the farm system, or elite individuals within the farm system?

I don't believe we have any truly "elite" (which is a completely subjective term anyway) prospects, even though several of the players you mentioned have top line/pairing potential.
I'm talking about a blue-chip guy, someone you can pencil in as a first line NHL forward, as Singn said.

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02-16-2010, 06:44 PM
  #115
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I've said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: the term "tanking" as used in this debate really bugs me.

As far as I can tell, no one (at least no one I can remember) is advocating actually, truly tanking. TANKING would be sitting Gabby "for precautionary reasons"; tanking would be deciding that "Hank needs to rest every other day due to the Olympic strain"; tanking would be sending MDZ back to his junior team "to experience their playoff run".

TANKING IS NOT SELLING NON-CORE PARTS LIKE PROSPAL AT THE DEADLINE.

Again, for those who are going to be stubborn about this, rational, planned selling =/= tanking.


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Old
02-16-2010, 06:49 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Don't you think we kind of ruin our own fate when a sliding organization like ours didn't go with the rebuild around the time the Ovechkins and Crosbys were coming into draft years? That would've been a good time to get lucky. But I also think if we just played the cards we were dealt and not tried to use the monetary fix to 'stay competitive' we wouldve had a better chance at 'luck'
Couldn't do anything about Crosby because of the lockout.

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02-16-2010, 06:50 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I've said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: the term "tanking" as used in this debate really bugs me.

As far as I can tell, no one (at least no one I can remember) is advocating actually, truly tanking. TANKING would be sitting Gabby "for precautionary reasons"; tanking would be deciding that "Hank needs to rest every other day due to the Olympic strain"; tanking would be sending MDZ back to his junior team "to experience their playoff run".

TANKING IS NOT SELLING NON-CORE PARTS LIKE PROSPAL AT THE DEADLINE.
That term is thrown around way too often around here.

Prospal is a huge asset right now. Hes worth just as much or more as a trading asset for the future as he is to get this team to the playoffs. Sure, you wont get a bonafide star out of it, but you should get something of substance back that you can grow, trade for a higher draft pick, or use in a trade.

And after all of that - you CAN REACQUIRE HIM IN THE SUMMER and probably for a good price again too.

Our luck is, Slats finally decides to trade him for a 4th rounder or something nominal and totally blows his value.

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02-16-2010, 06:53 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Couldn't do anything about Crosby because of the lockout.
Thats part of the Ranger luck. Remember how bad we were gonna be that year?

And dont get my started on that lotto where we were practically guaranteed a top 5 pick. Instead we had the worst draw of the draft. Thats the Ranger luck i'm tellin ya

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02-16-2010, 06:53 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I've said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: the term "tanking" as used in this debate really bugs me.

As far as I can tell, no one (at least no one I can remember) is advocating actually, truly tanking. TANKING would be sitting Gabby "for precautionary reasons"; tanking would be deciding that "Hank needs to rest every other day due to the Olympic strain"; tanking would be sending MDZ back to his junior team "to experience their playoff run".

TANKING IS NOT SELLING NON-CORE PARTS LIKE PROSPAL AT THE DEADLINE.

Again, for those who are going to be stubborn about this, rational, planned selling =/= tanking.
Maybe another word needs to be used. That word does suggest intentionally losing games.

How about REBUILD? I think that's a nicer way of saying the team is not competing for a championship at this point in time. And is looking to rebuild through the draft.

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02-16-2010, 07:08 PM
  #120
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Where are the Rangers going? The salary cap jumped from $39 million in 05-06 to $44 million in 06-07 to $50.3 million in 07-08(Chris Drury and Scott Gomez) to $56.7 million in 08-09(Wade Redden and Michal Rozsival). It stagnated to $56.8 million for this season and it will remain status quo for next season. It might increase or decrease. The Canadian dollar will determine the cap for next season. The Rangers have $45-$46 million committed for next season. They have so many decisions to make by March 3 and this summer. Sather used the cap increases to go shopping and now that the cap has stagnated or might decrease,the Rangers are in a bind.

The current CBA expires after next season with the NHLPA having the option of extending the agreement by an extra year. That promises to be another tough negotiation. Pierre LeBrun mentioned there might be another round of compliance buyouts in the next CBA. That is where and when the Rangers divest themselves of Wade Redden's contract.

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02-16-2010, 08:10 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Thats part of the Ranger luck. Remember how bad we were gonna be that year?

And dont get my started on that lotto where we were practically guaranteed a top 5 pick. Instead we had the worst draw of the draft. Thats the Ranger luck i'm tellin ya
The same thing happened to the Boston Celtics in the Tim Duncan draft.

That's part of the beauty of the lottery system. I've always advocated even going a step further, and reversing the odds for the #1 pick; giving the team that just missed out on the playoffs the greatest probability of securing the #1 pick, and giving the worst team in the league the worst odds.

Losing shouldn't be rewarded the way it currently is. Pittsburgh is a wonderful example. We're talking about a team that was a complete wreck and almost relocated as a model franchise? If it wasn't for out and out luck, there wouldn't be a Pittsburgh Penguins today, so they shouldn't be portrayed as a model for how to build a successful club. Same for Chicago; let's not forget where that franchise was headed before Bill Wirtz died.

To me, it just all seems too logical to not be reality. The 8 best teams in a conference get the chance to go on and obtain the ultimate goal for every NHL team. The teams that just miss out on that opportunity should have first crack at the upcoming draft class.

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02-16-2010, 08:35 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by polako View Post
The same thing happened to the Boston Celtics in the Tim Duncan draft.

That's part of the beauty of the lottery system. I've always advocated even going a step further, and reversing the odds for the #1 pick; giving the team that just missed out on the playoffs the greatest probability of securing the #1 pick, and giving the worst team in the league the worst odds.

Losing shouldn't be rewarded the way it currently is. Pittsburgh is a wonderful example. We're talking about a team that was a complete wreck and almost relocated as a model franchise? If it wasn't for out and out luck, there wouldn't be a Pittsburgh Penguins today, so they shouldn't be portrayed as a model for how to build a successful club. Same for Chicago; let's not forget where that franchise was headed before Bill Wirtz died.

To me, it just all seems too logical to not be reality. The 8 best teams in a conference get the chance to go on and obtain the ultimate goal for every NHL team. The teams that just miss out on that opportunity should have first crack at the upcoming draft class.
You make a great point, but until the system changes teams that either barely make the playoffs or barely miss out will be in a state of perpetual hell.

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02-16-2010, 09:00 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I've said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: the term "tanking" as used in this debate really bugs me.

As far as I can tell, no one (at least no one I can remember) is advocating actually, truly tanking. TANKING would be sitting Gabby "for precautionary reasons"; tanking would be deciding that "Hank needs to rest every other day due to the Olympic strain"; tanking would be sending MDZ back to his junior team "to experience their playoff run".

TANKING IS NOT SELLING NON-CORE PARTS LIKE PROSPAL AT THE DEADLINE.

Again, for those who are going to be stubborn about this, rational, planned selling =/= tanking.
Who says Prospal is non-core?

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02-16-2010, 09:16 PM
  #124
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grachev

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Elite collectively, meaning very good depth in the farm system, or elite individuals within the farm system?

I don't believe we have any truly "elite" (which is a completely subjective term anyway) prospects, even though several of the players you mentioned have top line/pairing potential.
I'm talking about a blue-chip guy, someone you can pencil in as a first line NHL forward, as Singn said.

Grachev, Stepan, Krieder.

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02-16-2010, 09:16 PM
  #125
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Who says Prospal is non-core?
Oh, c'mon - really?

He's THIRTY FIVE. Do you think the Rangers are in line for a cup this year? Next year when he's 36 (and a year closer to retirement and in line for his traditional down year after an up year)?

Our current young players and young prospects will NOT be ready for the big time before he RETIRES, much less by the time he's no longer effective as a top 6 player (which could be as early as next year).

His salary this year was a little over a million. He's in line for his last big payday. He will not be the same feel-good bargain he was this year - and he's gonna want multiple years.

He is the very definition of non-core.

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