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Why is Norway not a hockey power?

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02-17-2010, 12:13 PM
  #76
David Brent
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
Racism and xenophoby so disgusting regardless the form and shape.

This one is even funny. The way a short term economical prosperity (last 40-50 years) gives an individual or a nation the false feeling of superiority. Before the WWII Czechoslovakia was one of the most developed countries in Europe in terms of living standard, technology and industry. In the eyes of pre-war Czechoslovaks Scandinavia was a next-door-to-starving hickey dead-end where people survived on hunting squirrels and foxes. And see how the card has turned in say 75 years. Literally within one lifespan. Nowadays Scandinavians feel superior to "eastern block" based on wealth and prosperity most of them had no part in making.

Human nature, I guess. It's always been that way. Just as the Romans of old considered (and treated) all the native peoples north of Alps no better than animals.

Valuable lesson is the fact that the superiority is shifting and is not granted. Maybe you shall see yourself, within your own lifespan.
Isn't a bit harsh to judge all Scandinavians based on one article describing the history og HOCKEY?

Edit: All this article says is that hockey was the preferred sport for the working class on Oslo's east side. It does not say anything about the relationship between eastern and western Europe. Chimps interpretation is lacking, to say the least.


Last edited by David Brent: 02-17-2010 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Additional information
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02-17-2010, 12:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by David Brent View Post
Isn't a bit harsh to judge all Scandinavians based on one article describing the history og HOCKEY?

Edit: All this article says is that hockey was the preferred sport for the working class on Oslo's east side. It does not say anything about the relationship between eastern and western Europe. Chimps interpretation is lacking, to say the least.
Well, yes and no. It was a quote from one man, so it shouldn't have too much relevance I guess.
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– Hockeyen har alltid slitt med et østkantimage. Det eneste vi kan trøste oss med er at vi er større enn bandy. Lenge har det vært sånn; har du hockeysveis, er du tjukk i huet. Altså, du er tjukk i huet hvis du spiller hockey.
Isn't "østkantimage" = eastern block image, sort of? The feeling of worn down, unpainted concrete blocks. The "stupid in the head" and "eastern block image" were not mentioned in the same sentence. I think the man tried to say the common Norwegian viewed hockey as unattractive and crazy.

I think it's FreakyEuro that is spinning it to the extreme.

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02-17-2010, 12:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by David Brent View Post
Isn't a bit harsh to judge all Scandinavians based on one article describing the history og HOCKEY?
I didn't judge all the Scandinavians. I firmly do believe that in EVERY single country in the world there is about the same amount of good and bad people. I'll try to stick to good people regardless of their passport.

But honestly, public image of a country doesn't grow on trees. It is given by the country's prosperity, international relations, cultural references and the image of that country portrayed by media. And those play a big role, you see some footage from lesser developed countries, you see dirt, mess, problems, you're far away and you take the coloured and exclamated news for granted.

Can you really say all of your countryman see eastern Europeans or Middle Easterners as their equals? I guess in all honesty you cannot. Because people scrutinize, judge and disregard. If they didn't the term "eastern block" wouldn't exist or you wouldn't understand what it means.

The fact is, I don't judge Scandinavians. I tried to make clear I made a point about the humanity as a whole. About human nature in general. Cause it's all the same and it all has been here:

-Nihil novum sub sole- as the Romans of old would say.

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02-17-2010, 12:27 PM
  #79
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haha
my grandfather (whos a Finn) and I were musing about this yesterday

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02-17-2010, 12:28 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Well, yes and no. It was a quote from one man, so it shouldn't have too much relevance I guess.

"Eastern block image".
"Østkantimage" can not be interpreted as "easter block image".
It basically means "working class image" or "poor image". It has nothing to do with the East block, or any other aspects of the Cold War. It describes local distinctions between the rich and poor in Oslo at the time.


Last edited by David Brent: 02-17-2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Typo
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02-17-2010, 12:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Isn't "østkantimage" = eastern block image, sort of? The feeling of worn down, unpainted concrete blocks.
No, in this instance it refers to the east side of Oslo. Traditionally the poor, working class side of town.

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02-17-2010, 12:35 PM
  #82
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Aha. Well then yes, it was a poor translation by me.
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Originally Posted by Redwingsfan View Post
Thats not true.. Every team in the highest league in Norway have nice locker rooms located inside the rink.. I agree with everything else you said though
Well, of course I didn't mean every Norwegian top team has poor conditions. I missed a can there in my post, heh. I just remembered an article in a Swedish sports paper, where the Norwegian players in one team had to walk outside to reach the rink. This was some time ago though and I don't know about the exact circumstances. Media can be misleading I guess.

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02-17-2010, 12:36 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
I didn't judge all the Scandinavians. I firmly do believe that in EVERY single country in the world there is about the same amount of good and bad people. I'll try to stick to good people regardless of their passport.

But honestly, public image of a country doesn't grow on trees. It is given by the country's prosperity, international relations, cultural references and the image of that country portrayed by media. And those play a big role, you see some footage from lesser developed countries, you see dirt, mess, problems, you're far away and you take the coloured and exclamated news for granted.

Can you really say all of your countryman see eastern Europeans or Middle Easterners as their equals? I guess in all honesty you cannot. Because people scrutinize, judge and disregard. If they didn't the term "eastern block" wouldn't exist or you wouldn't understand what it means.

The fact is, I don't judge Scandinavians. I tried to make clear I made a point about the humanity as a whole. About human nature in general. Cause it's all the same and it all has been here:

-Nihil novum sub sole- as the Romans of old would say.
I do not think that our xenophobia is more developed than in any other country in the western hemisphere. Just look at your countrys treatment og Romas and immigrants.

You should also look at the reasons behind the Nordic countrys economical and social success. Is it all luck and history just strolling along, or is there anything in the Scandinavian distribution of wealth?
I would also like to add that Norway spends a bigger part of its GDP on development in other countrys than any other nation in the world.


Last edited by David Brent: 02-17-2010 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Typo
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02-17-2010, 12:36 PM
  #84
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Is it possible to play pond hockey where most Norwegians live? It seems like that's how hockey initially got popularized in most places.

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02-17-2010, 12:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Isn't "østkantimage" = eastern block image, sort of? The feeling of worn down, unpainted concrete blocks.
The feeling I have in every second small Czech city. And the feeling I had when I visited Malmo.

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I think it's FreakyEuro that is spinning it to the extreme.
Why extreme? I just stand on the receiving side of a name calling and I wanted to show you there are two sides to every coin.

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02-17-2010, 12:47 PM
  #86
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Russian influence has nothing to do with Finland's hockey culture (coach Jursinov of the early 90's excluded). Russia will always be "the enemy" for Finland, even during the peaceful eras like the one we have currently. Deep down every finn resents russians.

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02-17-2010, 12:50 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by David Brent View Post
Just look at your countrys treatment og Romas and immigrants.
I never wanted this to go that far. But honestly do you think your knowledge of the problematics is deep enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brent View Post
You should also look at the reasons behind the Nordic countrys economical and social success. Is it all luck and history just strolling along, or is there anything in the Scandinavian distribution of wealth?
I would also like to add that Norway spends a bigger part of its BNP on development in other countrys than any other nation in the world.
It's regretable how you believe that the wealth of your country is based on the correct "distribution of wealth". Europe is doomed in case should many people believe so.
The wealth of Scandinavia is based on old-days protestant morale, responsibility and work ethics of past generations of Scandinavians. Not on the proper "distribution of wealth". That's just the way to dilute the fruits of hard labor of former generations of your fathers and grandfathers who got you where you are right now.

I think we both know what this "distribution of wealth" is an euphemism for.

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02-17-2010, 12:54 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
Did you read my original post on page 1 of this thread? I think that explains at least with some accuracy why Norway aren't a big hockey nation.

I think the reason why Norway ain't a hockey nation can be summed up like this:

1) Not enough hockey rinks throughout the country. Imagine the second largest city in Norway doesn't even have it's own team (at least one to speak of). It should give you an idea

2) The sport has a huge reputation/image problem. See my earlier post

3) Other sports are more popular and easier to access and play. Hockey requires a great deal of equipment. Football and skiing doesn't.

4) No success for the national team generates no interest

5) No media exposure. Games are not shown on national, free tv-channels.


Sweden and Finland have had decades of success and international star players. That generates interest among the public and gives respectability to the sport. Norway has had none of the above.
Dude, CTHD, did you even read my reply to him? I simply said lack of rinks was a symptom of the problem, not the problem. Got it?

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02-17-2010, 12:58 PM
  #89
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The success of nordic countries is because of strong public education system and good public health system. Protestant work-ethic doesn't hurt either.

Too bad the liberal immigration policy is starting to cripple societies, there already areas you can call ghettos in Oslo, Malmö and Stockholm.

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02-17-2010, 01:04 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Is it possible to play pond hockey where most Norwegians live? It seems like that's how hockey initially got popularized in most places.
In the most sparsely populated northern Norway (where there are no rinks at the moment, a couple are being built as we speak) it is possible.

Eastern Norway which is the most populated and also where most of the rinks are it is possible to a certain extent.

In western Norway this is the first winter in many years that it has been possible for a long time (almost two months as we speak).

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02-17-2010, 01:04 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Is it possible to play pond hockey where most Norwegians live? It seems like that's how hockey initially got popularized in most places.
Not unless you clear the pond yourself and invite people to come an join

There is no shortage of ponds but you won't find anyone turning up in hockey gear...

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02-17-2010, 01:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
I never wanted this to go that far. But honestly do you think your knowledge of the problematics is deep enough?



It's regretable how you believe that the wealth of your country is based on the correct "distribution of wealth". Europe is doomed in case should many people believe so.
The wealth of Scandinavia is based on old-days protestant morale, responsibility and work ethics of past generations of Scandinavians. Not on the proper "distribution of wealth". That's just the way to dilute the fruits of hard labor of former generations of your fathers and grandfathers who got you where you are right now.

I think we both know what this "distribution of wealth" is an euphemism for.
Nice to see the Ayn Rand Kool Aid has made it to Europe.

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02-17-2010, 01:08 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
The success of nordic countries is because of strong public education system and good public health system. Protestant work-ethic doesn't hurt either.

Too bad the liberal immigration policy is starting to cripple societies, there already areas you can call ghettos in Oslo, Malmö and Stockholm.
Yes but you cannot actually prevent this. It's a civilization cycle. Our modern economies are based on growth. Non-present growth is a grain of sand in the clockwork. And nothing can grow sky high: in the beginning you can support the growth by better qualified work force (improved education system, proficiency and efficiency), but the problem is every civilization that reaches certain level of saturation and luxury somehows stops reproducing. The infant/woman ratio declines.

Thus you have to supply the demand for the workforce by incoming individuals. And that's the start of the civilization turnaround. New people will come, they will be more dynamic, more hungry for success etc.

I can see it here as well, we have a lot of Vietnamese immigrants and their second generation are the best students at elementary schools and high schools. Perfectly integrated, speak the language. They are the go-geters, they want it more, they're ready to try harder and sacrifice more to be successful.

The first generation of immigrants always assumes low-grade jobs (as this sector is always happily abandoned by the locals), but the second or third generation will take a bite of the cake of captaining the industry, business etc.

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02-17-2010, 01:08 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
The success of nordic countries is because of strong public education system and good public health system. Protestant work-ethic doesn't hurt either.
Too bad the liberal immigration policy is starting to cripple societies, there already areas you can call ghettos in Oslo, Malmö and Stockholm.
News to me that Protestants were given the copyright to hard work. Man is the next page going to be spawning quotes from Der Fuhrer?

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02-17-2010, 01:09 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by doakacola View Post
Nice to see the Ayn Rand Kool Aid has made it to Europe.
Honestly I have no clue what you're referring to.

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02-17-2010, 01:12 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
Yes but you cannot actually prevent this. It's a civilization cycle. Our modern economies are based on growth. Non-present growth is a grain of sand in the clockwork. And nothing can grow sky high: in the beginning you can support the growth by better qualified work force (improved education system, proficiency and efficiency), but the problem is every civilization that reaches certain level of saturation and luxury somehows stops reproducing. The infant/woman ratio declines.
Thus you have to supply the demand for the workforce by incoming individuals. And that's the start of the civilization turnaround. New people will come, they will be more dynamic, more hungry for success etc.

I can see it here as well, we have a lot of Vietnamese immigrants and their second generation are the best students at elementary schools and high schools. Perfectly integrated, speak the language. They are the go-geters, they want it more, they're ready to try harder and sacrifice more to be successful.

The first generation of immigrants always assumes low-grade jobs (as this sector is always happily abandoned by the locals), but the second or third generation will take a bite of the cake of captaining the industry, business etc.
This is due in large part to how costly a modern mature economy becomes in relation to child rearing. Who in their right minds would rack out a half dozen kids today?

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02-17-2010, 01:15 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
Honestly I have no clue what you're referring to.
Your comment on "wealth re-distribution". It's classic US style, Libertarian, Ayn Rand, Kool Aid drinking drivel. Got it now?

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02-17-2010, 01:16 PM
  #98
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I'm afraid the protestant work ethic went out the door in this country back in sixties or something...

I actually think it's a bit of a shame that this thread has gone a bit sour and moved away from the intent of the original poster. Let's not make this into a political issues thread, please.

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02-17-2010, 01:17 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
The feeling I have in every second small Czech city. And the feeling I had when I visited Malmo.



Why extreme? I just stand on the receiving side of a name calling and I wanted to show you there are two sides to every coin.
Point taken.

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02-17-2010, 01:19 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by doakacola View Post
News to me that Protestants were given the copyright to hard work. Man is the next page going to be spawning quotes from Der Fuhrer?
Come on. Nobody said they had the copyright to hard work. But the Northern-European protestants (Denmark, Netherlands, Iceland, Finland, Norway, Sweden) were hard workers. Give credit where it's due. Those cold-climate countries didn't actually flourish with fruits that were just within a reach of an arm. Those countries were built by generations of hard working people. That's no Nazism, that's a fact. And let's leave Der Fuehrer to rot in hell.

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