HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Mike Moore

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-17-2010, 10:26 AM
  #26
fxhomie
Registered User
 
fxhomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East CoCo County, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Yeah, but for the purposes of discussion here the AHL salary isn't really important.
Well, for the purposes of this discussion his NHL salary isn't important either, as I don't recall him getting in any NHL games.

fxhomie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 11:21 AM
  #27
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
Think Moore-Murray would have a similar effect?
I would think it's certainly possible...

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 11:22 AM
  #28
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxhomie View Post
Well, for the purposes of this discussion his NHL salary isn't important either, as I don't recall him getting in any NHL games.
He hasn't gotten any NHL games because his NHL cap hit is much higher than other alternatives...

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 11:31 AM
  #29
TheGooooch
HFBoards Sponsor
 
TheGooooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 17,886
vCash: 500
So he makes a million in the NHL and 65K in the AHL. Ouch, or was that 65 supposed to be 650

TheGooooch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 11:43 AM
  #30
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGooooch View Post
So he makes a million in the NHL and 65K in the AHL. Ouch, or was that 65 supposed to be 650
$65k sounds right...that's not that uncommon for players on their first contracts.

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 12:07 PM
  #31
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,951
vCash: 500
so basically his "high" rookie contract probably cost him at least 50 grand this year and hes not making that mistake again.

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 12:15 PM
  #32
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
so basically his "high" rookie contract probably cost him at least 50 grand this year and hes not making that mistake again.
I think you'll start to see players in their first NHL contracts looking for low NHL salaries and then trying to "max" their AHL salary just below the recall waiver line.

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 01:27 PM
  #33
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxhomie View Post
Well, for the purposes of this discussion his NHL salary isn't important either, as I don't recall him getting in any NHL games.
no it is important because he's not getting NHL games because right now he's too expensive compared to Joslin or Demers. The fact that he's taking a pay cut at the NHL level is a big boost to his chances at getting some games with San Jose.

__________________

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent."
'14-15 Sharks CI Tracker: 7 GP, 1-4-2 (home-away-Nat'l/In-Region)
Sorry, I am not taking signature requests at this time.
The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 01:30 PM
  #34
CBJenga
Registered User
 
CBJenga's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 1,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I think you'll start to see players in their first NHL contracts looking for low NHL salaries and then trying to "max" their AHL salary just below the recall waiver line.
Honestly, I'm surprised that wasn't already standard. Seems to me that they could expect to make more with 1 NHL season than like 5-8 AHL seasons (random numbers, but fits well within a 65k --> 1M), and that if they think they have a real chance to get to the big club in a reasonable amount of time, they'd make it as easy for the big club to take them in and then prove themselves there for the big bucks.

CBJenga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 01:51 PM
  #35
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
Honestly, I'm surprised that wasn't already standard. Seems to me that they could expect to make more with 1 NHL season than like 5-8 AHL seasons (random numbers, but fits well within a 65k --> 1M), and that if they think they have a real chance to get to the big club in a reasonable amount of time, they'd make it as easy for the big club to take them in and then prove themselves there for the big bucks.
I think a lot of agents didn't really understand how big a factor the cap would be in younger players not getting the "cup of coffee" they used to get, which is why it's taken so long for them to come around to looking for low value NHL deals for players that look like they'll begin their careers in the AHL.

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 03:08 PM
  #36
tarlinian
Registered User
 
tarlinian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pasadena, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,162
vCash: 500
To be fair, it wasn't as much on an issue until the recession hit and the cap started stagnating like this. Back then, practically any ELC was a great deal.

tarlinian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 03:47 PM
  #37
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarlinian View Post
To be fair, it wasn't as much on an issue until the recession hit and the cap started stagnating like this. Back then, practically any ELC was a great deal.
Its more of an issue now because there seems to be more teams right on the cap than in the past. I think these contracts may end up being based on the financial situation of the teams doing the drafting

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:09 PM
  #38
Nighthock
**** the Kings...
 
Nighthock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 15,840
vCash: 500
Sweet. Hopefully he can do more than just be a bruiser ...

Nighthock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:45 PM
  #39
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
Replace Murray? In the next season and a half? I'm confused. We aren't happy with Murray?
I am not but I am in the minority on the issue.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 05:05 PM
  #40
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I am not but I am in the minority on the issue.
are you not happy with him or are you not happy with his salary or his position as a #3/4 on the team.


He may be slightly overpaid for what he brings and its not his fault DW felt like getting rid of a top 4 dman for nothing.

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 05:10 PM
  #41
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,876
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
Replace Murray? In the next season and a half? I'm confused. We aren't happy with Murray?
I know. He is still at a good age and a decent enough contract (as compared to what some are making throught the league in his similar spot) and, gives us WAY MORE than the likes of Leach, Huskins and Wallin. Murray is a rock back there for us. We are solid in our top core with the likes of Boyle, Vlasic and Murray and, the likes of Moore and Demers are building blocks around them and the likes of Moore deserves a shot just as some others have had. He is having a very solid season in Worc. I've been calling for Moore to get a shot all season and, not one call up. Can't be for the money because,,,,,,didn't we just waste some good money for the spot Moore could have been brought up for with the move for Wallin?? But, very glad to see he has re-signed with us. Maybe he will get a shot in a couple years when Huskins is gone, and Leach and Wallin and maybe T.M. (did you all see how Babcock gave each line about 45 seconds to a minute per shift?? Awesome to see as, gives them a chance to actually get into play. T.M., did you take some notes???).

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 06:12 PM
  #42
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
are you not happy with him or are you not happy with his salary or his position as a #3/4 on the team.


He may be slightly overpaid for what he brings and its not his fault DW felt like getting rid of a top 4 dman for nothing.
I was never happy with Murray's salary the moment he signed it. I'm also not happy that he was put into the position he's in out of necessity due to DW's idiocy. I'm happy with his play for the most part but to me it is not up to snuff for his salary nor what the team needs him to be.

In reality, he should have been the #5 this year and he in no way deserved 2.5 mil and should've been paid around 1.5-2 mil instead for what he has done and what his realistic potential was throughout his time here.

I don't place the blame on Murray at all though. He's not going to turn down a 4 year, 10 mil contract and there is no shortage of effort, heart, and desire in his game. He's just being asked to do more than he was ever really capable of. The problem is that the team eventually will have to suffer if he doesn't improve to a point where he's an acceptable 4th defenseman.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 06:29 PM
  #43
RainbowDash
20% Cooler
 
RainbowDash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Equestria
Posts: 2,023
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I was never happy with Murray's salary the moment he signed it. I'm also not happy that he was put into the position he's in out of necessity due to DW's idiocy. I'm happy with his play for the most part but to me it is not up to snuff for his salary nor what the team needs him to be.

In reality, he should have been the #5 this year and he in no way deserved 2.5 mil and should've been paid around 1.5-2 mil instead for what he has done and what his realistic potential was throughout his time here.

I don't place the blame on Murray at all though. He's not going to turn down a 4 year, 10 mil contract and there is no shortage of effort, heart, and desire in his game. He's just being asked to do more than he was ever really capable of. The problem is that the team eventually will have to suffer if he doesn't improve to a point where he's an acceptable 4th defenseman.
Well said. I think it would have been more sound to offer 4 years, 8 mil and he would have taken that and the team would be in better Salary cap situation.

RainbowDash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 09:50 PM
  #44
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,876
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Well said. I think it would have been more sound to offer 4 years, 8 mil and he would have taken that and the team would be in better Salary cap situation.
So, he`s at only .5 mil. above what you guys think he should be at and, the savings of his half mil. would put us in a whole lot better place? Okay. Well, is he not pretty much the ONLY D man with a physical presence to protect our net and a very strong of the reason our P.K. is so good? And P.F., Please don`t say that Vlasic does this a whole lot better than Murray and, if most agree with that, then they have to stop ridiculing his physical game on the boards. A D man like Murray is a wish for any G.M. whom loves the physical game of Hockey (at the front end, this type of game from the likes of Lucic in beantown is so cherished simply for his incredible physicality and desire). Not saying the likes of Murray and Moore are Lucic but, they bring a similar and much needed heavy game. Look at the success of the very strong D on the Hawks! Their physicality in their game speaks for itself.

Just look at how our soft D, outside of Murray, gets pushed around BADLY by the much smaller Wings! We lost in the first round last season from being too soft (aside from additional reasons-no secondary scoring, terrible goaltending) that, our top guy had to get into a fight to try and inspire us.

Murray is extremely important to us and, at the little over-valuation you guys see him at, I think he`s worth it. D.W. has wasted much higher dollars elsewhere and that`s where you have to look at. Moore `may` be the next Murray type so, with the organization obviously seeing this, they`ve kept him around. Great move.

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 10:49 PM
  #45
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
So, he`s at only .5 mil. above what you guys think he should be at and, the savings of his half mil. would put us in a whole lot better place? Okay. Well, is he not pretty much the ONLY D man with a physical presence to protect our net and a very strong of the reason our P.K. is so good? And P.F., Please don`t say that Vlasic does this a whole lot better than Murray and, if most agree with that, then they have to stop ridiculing his physical game on the boards. A D man like Murray is a wish for any G.M. whom loves the physical game of Hockey (at the front end, this type of game from the likes of Lucic in beantown is so cherished simply for his incredible physicality and desire). Not saying the likes of Murray and Moore are Lucic but, they bring a similar and much needed heavy game. Look at the success of the very strong D on the Hawks! Their physicality in their game speaks for itself.

Just look at how our soft D, outside of Murray, gets pushed around BADLY by the much smaller Wings! We lost in the first round last season from being too soft (aside from additional reasons-no secondary scoring, terrible goaltending) that, our top guy had to get into a fight to try and inspire us.

Murray is extremely important to us and, at the little over-valuation you guys see him at, I think he`s worth it. D.W. has wasted much higher dollars elsewhere and that`s where you have to look at. Moore `may` be the next Murray type so, with the organization obviously seeing this, they`ve kept him around. Great move.
lol I won't argue with you because you're wrong. Suffice it to say that Murray's effectiveness is vastly overstated to me. Looking over all the little overpayments adds up eventually and the result shows in the Ehrhoff trade.

You seem to absolve Murray of all the blame when it comes to d-zone issues even though he was a part of it too. Yeah he's physical but he's not nearly the shutdown defenseman that people make him out to be.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2010, 12:34 AM
  #46
RainbowDash
20% Cooler
 
RainbowDash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Equestria
Posts: 2,023
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
So, he`s at only .5 mil. above what you guys think he should be at and, the savings of his half mil. would put us in a whole lot better place? Okay. Well, is he not pretty much the ONLY D man with a physical presence to protect our net and a very strong of the reason our P.K. is so good? And P.F., Please don`t say that Vlasic does this a whole lot better than Murray and, if most agree with that, then they have to stop ridiculing his physical game on the boards. A D man like Murray is a wish for any G.M. whom loves the physical game of Hockey (at the front end, this type of game from the likes of Lucic in beantown is so cherished simply for his incredible physicality and desire). Not saying the likes of Murray and Moore are Lucic but, they bring a similar and much needed heavy game. Look at the success of the very strong D on the Hawks! Their physicality in their game speaks for itself.

Just look at how our soft D, outside of Murray, gets pushed around BADLY by the much smaller Wings! We lost in the first round last season from being too soft (aside from additional reasons-no secondary scoring, terrible goaltending) that, our top guy had to get into a fight to try and inspire us.

Murray is extremely important to us and, at the little over-valuation you guys see him at, I think he`s worth it. D.W. has wasted much higher dollars elsewhere and that`s where you have to look at. Moore `may` be the next Murray type so, with the organization obviously seeing this, they`ve kept him around. Great move.
Ok. Well, I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll give you the lowdown.

500k is a significant chunk of change for a tight salary cap that this org has.
Murray doesn't rank high amongst our top tier best PK guys. There are plenty of guys I can name off that in that top tier before Murray. In proper order....Nabby, Vlasic, Pavs, Patty, Malhotra, Nichol, Boyle, THEN finally Murray or Blake.
Theres nothing wrong with D men being physical players. You expect that when its appropriate. I don't think anyone is arguing that its a bad quality. Hes a great player. Hes just not fast enough, and lacks the stick skills.
The success of the Hawks isn't the physicality of their D core. Their success works out because of the speed and physicality of their forwards and the high pressure forecheck system they use. Not the D men.

RainbowDash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2010, 08:57 AM
  #47
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
lol I won't argue with you because you're wrong. Suffice it to say that Murray's effectiveness is vastly overstated to me. Looking over all the little overpayments adds up eventually and the result shows in the Ehrhoff trade.

You seem to absolve Murray of all the blame when it comes to d-zone issues even though he was a part of it too. Yeah he's physical but he's not nearly the shutdown defenseman that people make him out to be.
Murray is playing on the Swedish Olympic team, the defending gold medal Swedish Olympic team. He was personally endorsed by the best defensemen to ever play the game. So far from what I understand he's played very well (I missed the game).

Apparently some of the best hockey minds in the business think Murray is in fact quite valuable. Personally I think 2.5m is more than fair. Also, remember, Murray is one of the few players we have that takes it to another level in the playoffs.

Also, saying "i'm not going to argue with you" and then arguing anyway is just disrespectful. Mod delete

Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Ok. Well, I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll give you the lowdown.

500k is a significant chunk of change for a tight salary cap that this org has.
Murray doesn't rank high amongst our top tier best PK guys. There are plenty of guys I can name off that in that top tier before Murray. In proper order....Nabby, Vlasic, Pavs, Patty, Malhotra, Nichol, Boyle, THEN finally Murray or Blake.
Theres nothing wrong with D men being physical players. You expect that when its appropriate. I don't think anyone is arguing that its a bad quality. Hes a great player. Hes just not fast enough, and lacks the stick skills.
The success of the Hawks isn't the physicality of their D core. Their success works out because of the speed and physicality of their forwards and the high pressure forecheck system they use. Not the D men.
What the heck does that even mean? Nabby is a better penalty killer than Murray so that proves Murray is not worth 2.5m? That makes absolutely no sense. Comparing him with forwards on the PK is one thing, comparing him with the goalie is illogical. Basing his pay on his PK skills is also an unusual point since Murray is a very physical defensemen and the PK is the one place he cannot use that effectively (throwing hits on the PK is generally unusual). Besides that Murray plays big minutes on one of the league's best PK squads.


So Murray is undisputeably:

One of the top hitters in the league.
A very solid defensemen capable of playing #4 minutes.
Is a career +25 (and he's not sheltered)
More than able to throw down with the big boys if needed.
Plays big minutes on one of the best PK's in the league

And he's not worth 2.5m? I think almost any team in the league would love to have him at that price.


Last edited by Patty Ice: 02-21-2010 at 09:29 AM.
hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2010, 09:30 AM
  #48
Patty Ice
Best in the World
 
Patty Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: OxNard
Country: Northern Ireland
Posts: 10,245
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Patty Ice Send a message via MSN to Patty Ice
The topic is Mike Moore not Douglas Murray. Please, keep it on topic guys.

__________________
Patty Ice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
  #49
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,876
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Murray is playing on the Swedish Olympic team, the defending gold medal Swedish Olympic team. He was personally endorsed by the best defensemen to ever play the game. So far from what I understand he's played very well (I missed the game).

Apparently some of the best hockey minds in the business think Murray is in fact quite valuable. Personally I think 2.5m is more than fair. Also, remember, Murray is one of the few players we have that takes it to another level in the playoffs.

Also, saying "i'm not going to argue with you" and then arguing anyway is just disrespectful. Mod delete



What the heck does that even mean? Nabby is a better penalty killer than Murray so that proves Murray is not worth 2.5m? That makes absolutely no sense. Comparing him with forwards on the PK is one thing, comparing him with the goalie is illogical. Basing his pay on his PK skills is also an unusual point since Murray is a very physical defensemen and the PK is the one place he cannot use that effectively (throwing hits on the PK is generally unusual). Besides that Murray plays big minutes on one of the league's best PK squads.


So Murray is undisputeably:

One of the top hitters in the league.
A very solid defensemen capable of playing #4 minutes.
Is a career +25 (and he's not sheltered)
More than able to throw down with the big boys if needed.
Plays big minutes on one of the best PK's in the league

And he's not worth 2.5m? I think almost any team in the league would love to have him at that price.
Firstly, sorry Patty. Just a little bit more on Murray as I will correlate him to Moore.

Secondly, thanks H.B.

I'm not "argueing" with you P.F. Being we cheer the same team and have Murray as one of our top D players, just debating his value with you. H.B. says it all above. I mean, look around the league at players of LESSER quality and the money they are signing for and/or have contracts for. With the value you and U.R. put him at, you put him below the likes of Huskins and Wallin! Again, H.B. says it all above and, for U.R., not just the silly comparison you have given with the goalie but as well with the forwards, I mean we are talking on the defensive end here. The only valid names you really added in there was Boyle and Vlasic. So, then where does Murrays value stand at then?? I guess right behind those two via the D core. Yes, we all know we need another top 4 D man, hopefully an offensive type that will be a solid 2 or 3 but, that would only leave Murray as a #4 which he will be steadfast and solid at for some time to come. I'll say it again and again that, when our team gets pushed around by a much smaller club like we have over and over and over again like the Wings, and we only have a couple guys (outside our top line whom SHOULDN'T be doing the heavy crashing and banging) like Murray and Clowe and Manny, Ort and Nichol, in the game of Hockey something is wrong there. And for U.R., you tell me that when guys are coming down against the likes of Keith and Seebrook, they don't keep their heads up?????

With Moore, the organization must know of the value of Murray and the likes in Moore so, they went ahead and re-signed him which is nothing short of a good thing for us.

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
  #50
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I think a lot of agents didn't really understand how big a factor the cap would be in younger players not getting the "cup of coffee" they used to get, which is why it's taken so long for them to come around to looking for low value NHL deals for players that look like they'll begin their careers in the AHL.
Part of that change might be a gamble. Some of the cap hit from those first contracts is the signing bonus which is lumped in with the NHL salary although it is paid up front. They get it whether they play in the NHL or the AHL. It is not counted as part of AHL salary but it is counted as part of NHL salary and cap hit. For college guys who haven't been paid while attending school, it gives them a lump sum to start living on their own (security deposits for living quarters, expenses for things cars, furnishings, etc.). The signing bonus can be up to 10% of the total contract value of the NHL salary part of the ELS. IIRC, Matt Carle had a signing bonus of $225k. Does a guy want money up front to get started or take a gamble for much more by hoping he makes the team with a low cap hit? From the size of the post-college ELS's, it is pretty obvious that there are some hefty bonuses in them.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.