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Old
02-18-2010, 10:02 AM
  #26
IrishSniper87
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Couple of things...

1) Flyers aren't trading Carter anytime soon.

2) If you're looking for players to compliment Iginla, Jeff Carter is the last player you would choose. He's a shooter, not a playmaker.
this and this

thanks for playing

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yea haha i was thinking that as well

iggy needs giroux but we wouldnt give him up unless we get iggy haha
Iggy needs a good passer with him. Or some talent in some form. He has nothing.

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
im sick of giroux on the 3rd line i think we need to compact our talent into 2 lines, cut this 3 line BS

giroux JVR carter richards briere gagne hartnell

7 good guys, but we need 6 for two lines, not 7 for three.

IMO we should trade 1 (hartnell, gags, briere) for a good dman and a 3rd line grinder, but i think i've made that point...

gags richie carter
JVR briere giroux (flip briere and giroux?)

thing with giroux/briere is that they are both competant at wing and center and are both pretty small, i'd take giroux up the middle over briere though.
It's like this. Stack the powerplay, but set the lines where everything is most comfortable.

Carter's line doesnt need to be stacked. The guy shoots a lot and dominates the puck. Putting too much talent with him is a waste in a way. He doesnt dish.

Richards dominates the puck also and has good chemistry with Gagne. Again, this line is in many ways our top defensive line. I wouldn't mind Giroux with these guys, but again, stacking lines when one guy dominates the puck is silly. If there were 2 pucks on the ice, I'd be all for it, but there is one.

Giroux, JVR and Asham have a lot of chemistry, so why not let them all play together? Nobody dominates the puck here, but Giroux at center lets him get more chances with the puck on his stick, so this works for me. JVR could also use the icetime with the puck on his stick. Throw those two with Richie or Carter, and they DON'T see the puck, which is counter-productive.

However yes, on the PP I would stack it way the hell up with all 7 of our best forwards and Richie on point.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Richards and Carter are our centers...and neither should be moved from that in our top 6 given our current roster.
Bingo.

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Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
We definitely don't look very competitive without Carter. It just goes to show how many people seriously were ready to give up on the season at one point. I'll admit I came close to making the "ok, i agree, it's possible we might not make the playoffs" post once, maybe twice. Glad I never did because now it sounds as ridiculous as my gut feeling said it was.
Very true, which is why I wouldn't move Carter for anything but Kovalchuk. That was the only proposal I saw that even made some sense.

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02-18-2010, 10:53 AM
  #27
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Look I understand you're reasoning, I just simply disagree that carter +richards shouldn't get paired.

This is like trying to convince someone coke is better than pepsi...it is preference, not quantitative logic

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02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And to be brutally frank, Calgary is a cautionary tale for why you build down the middle, not on the wing.
A tale reinforced by the Pens with Crosby, Malkin and Staal.....

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02-18-2010, 12:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
giroux/iggy is a sick combo, no matter how young giroux is...hes got incredible vision, im sure the two would be a more than capable duo.
I agree. Carter for Iggy?

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02-18-2010, 12:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Richards and Carter are our centers...and neither should be moved from that in our top 6 given our current roster.
Idk...it seemed like a lot of the goals carter was scoring before the break were coming down the left side. I always thought it would be interesting to try Carter at LW, I think he might get more space to work with, especially with Richards as his center. When I think of other right handed snipers in the league like Carter, I think of Kovy and Ovy, both of whom play LW, and are deadly coming down the left side with that right handed shot. Plus Richards and Carter are also best friends so youd have to figure there would be some chemistry there.

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02-18-2010, 01:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
Idk...it seemed like a lot of the goals carter was scoring before the break were coming down the left side. I always thought it would be interesting to try Carter at LW, I think he might get more space to work with, especially with Richards as his center. When I think of other right handed snipers in the league like Carter, I think of Kovy and Ovy, both of whom play LW, and are deadly coming down the left side with that right handed shot. Plus Richards and Carter are also best friends so youd have to figure there would be some chemistry there.
Look, I'm sure Carter could be an effective winger in this league if he was put there and stayed there.

However, you're ignoring some stuff in thinking about this:

1) Part of the reason you want Carter at center is because he gets the puck on his stick more at center (Note: this is why Giroux likes to play center, as well...and people like him there). You note that he looks good coming down the wing...as a center, he can go to either wing side without being out of position (he has more room to operate as a center).

2) You are completely ignoring the other side of the puck, and the defensive ramifications of taking Carter (or Richards) away from center and then replacing them with someone else. Richards is an excellent defensive center, and Carter isn't shabby himself. Carter is also our only center with any real size.

He scored 46 goals last year, is on pace for 37 this year with an outside shot at 40. It isn't broken, why are we trying to fix it?

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02-18-2010, 01:06 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
Idk...it seemed like a lot of the goals carter was scoring before the break were coming down the left side. I always thought it would be interesting to try Carter at LW, I think he might get more space to work with, especially with Richards as his center. When I think of other right handed snipers in the league like Carter, I think of Kovy and Ovy, both of whom play LW, and are deadly coming down the left side with that right handed shot. Plus Richards and Carter are also best friends so youd have to figure there would be some chemistry there.
i really liked them last year as our OT line carter-richie
they had a few GWG that way, imagine the entire game together o_0
obviously the 4th line is set, i think we all agree on that.
but the top 3 could still move around a little...
carter-richie-briere
JVR-giroux hartnell
-------powe------
carcillo betts lappy

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02-18-2010, 01:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, I'm sure Carter could be an effective winger in this league if he was put there and stayed there.

However, you're ignoring some stuff in thinking about this:

1) Part of the reason you want Carter at center is because he gets the puck on his stick more at center (Note: this is why Giroux likes to play center, as well...and people like him there). You note that he looks good coming down the wing...as a center, he can go to either wing side without being out of position (he has more room to operate as a center).

2) You are completely ignoring the other side of the puck, and the defensive ramifications of taking Carter (or Richards) away from center and then replacing them with someone else. Richards is an excellent defensive center, and Carter isn't shabby himself. Carter is also our only center with any real size.

He scored 46 goals last year, is on pace for 37 this year with an outside shot at 40. It isn't broken, why are we trying to fix it?
cause we are barely in 6th place with less than an outside chance of winning the cup, this being the year we mortgaged for a cup run...

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02-18-2010, 01:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
Idk...it seemed like a lot of the goals carter was scoring before the break were coming down the left side. I always thought it would be interesting to try Carter at LW, I think he might get more space to work with, especially with Richards as his center. When I think of other right handed snipers in the league like Carter, I think of Kovy and Ovy, both of whom play LW, and are deadly coming down the left side with that right handed shot. Plus Richards and Carter are also best friends so youd have to figure there would be some chemistry there.
I don't understand why people fail to grasp this concept, but I'll try again:
Carter does not need to be a LW to score from the left side. He's obviously finding his way over to that way and able to score goals from there, so you don't need to sacrifice his size in the center of the rink and defensive abilities just to have him on the wing.

Carter is still free to drift over to the left side off of the rush and take the shot from there - that's the purpose of weaving on the attack. Additionally, in the offensive zone, he can use his big body in a cycle to come off of that side and shoot as well.

If we had another big, defensively capable center who can provide the physical presence that Carter can in his stead on our roster, then sure, move him to wing. But we don't have that, so why shift him over and then have a weaker center on his line he'll only have to make up for?

Having him at C doesn't prohibit him from moving over to the wing off the rush and off the cycle - which are the only times that having him on that wing for the off-wing shot even makes sense.

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02-18-2010, 01:11 PM
  #35
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No...

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02-18-2010, 01:12 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, I'm sure Carter could be an effective winger in this league if he was put there and stayed there.

However, you're ignoring some stuff in thinking about this:

1) Part of the reason you want Carter at center is because he gets the puck on his stick more at center (Note: this is why Giroux likes to play center, as well...and people like him there). You note that he looks good coming down the wing...as a center, he can go to either wing side without being out of position (he has more room to operate as a center).

2) You are completely ignoring the other side of the puck, and the defensive ramifications of taking Carter (or Richards) away from center and then replacing them with someone else. Richards is an excellent defensive center, and Carter isn't shabby himself. Carter is also our only center with any real size.

He scored 46 goals last year, is on pace for 37 this year with an outside shot at 40. It isn't broken, why are we trying to fix it?
Agree completely. What a lot of people don't always notice about Carter is how good his positioning is at both ends of the ice. He's always in the right lane or on the wall.

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02-18-2010, 01:13 PM
  #37
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cause we are barely in 6th place with less than an outside chance of winning the cup, this being the year we mortgaged for a cup run...
We're 6th place because of a catastrophic 3-13-1 run, where just about everything went wrong. Our starting goalie got hurt and fell apart. Our special teams cratered. The team lost complete and utter confidence in itself.

What's our record outside of that stretch?

29-12-2.

It isn't broken. We are 7th in the NHL in goal scoring, 11th in goals against. We are a very good team, with a not so great record at the moment...due to reason that can be easily isolated, and none of which have anything to do with moving Carter off of center, which creates more problems than it solves.

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02-18-2010, 02:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I don't understand why people fail to grasp this concept, but I'll try again:
Carter does not need to be a LW to score from the left side. He's obviously finding his way over to that way and able to score goals from there, so you don't need to sacrifice his size in the center of the rink and defensive abilities just to have him on the wing.

Carter is still free to drift over to the left side off of the rush and take the shot from there - that's the purpose of weaving on the attack. Additionally, in the offensive zone, he can use his big body in a cycle to come off of that side and shoot as well.

If we had another big, defensively capable center who can provide the physical presence that Carter can in his stead on our roster, then sure, move him to wing. But we don't have that, so why shift him over and then have a weaker center on his line he'll only have to make up for?

Having him at C doesn't prohibit him from moving over to the wing off the rush and off the cycle - which are the only times that having him on that wing for the off-wing shot even makes sense.
maybe people do grasp it, but just disagree.

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02-18-2010, 02:37 PM
  #39
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maybe people do grasp it, but just disagree.
Okay, well then I just must not understand the counter argument.

If your whole thesis is that Carter can score better off the left wing, and should therefore play left wing....then it's not making sense.

He can still do it all he wants as a center, and be more effective defensively. If he wasn't adequately performing his responsibilities as a center, I would understand wanting to move him..but he's the second best center on the team, the best natural scoring center on the team, and has the freedom as a center to drift over to the left wing on the rush all he wants.

What part of that do you disagree with? Why would you want to move him to the wing when he can choose to drift over there when it's effective for him to be there, while better fulfilling needs elsewhere on the ice?

Putting Carter on the wing is a waste of his size and ability to carry the puck and control the play, unless you have a bigger or better center. I just don't get it, and if the whole argument is that he has a nasty shot from the left wing, that's a moot point because he's still free to use it as a center.

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02-18-2010, 02:49 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Okay, well then I just must not understand the counter argument.

If your whole thesis is that Carter can score better off the left wing, and should therefore play left wing....then it's not making sense.

He can still do it all he wants as a center, and be more effective defensively. If he wasn't adequately performing his responsibilities as a center, I would understand wanting to move him..but he's the second best center on the team, the best natural scoring center on the team, and has the freedom as a center to drift over to the left wing on the rush all he wants.

What part of that do you disagree with? Why would you want to move him to the wing when he can choose to drift over there when it's effective for him to be there, while better fulfilling needs elsewhere on the ice?

Putting Carter on the wing is a waste of his size and ability to carry the puck and control the play, unless you have a bigger or better center. I just don't get it, and if the whole argument is that he has a nasty shot from the left wing, that's a moot point because he's still free to use it as a center.
This sums up what I was going to say. Carter doesnt even need great linemates and he still produces. But he needs the freedom to roam to be most effective.

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02-18-2010, 02:49 PM
  #41
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carter is not talented enough to perform when the other team focuses on shutting him down. that is my argument and/or belief if you dont want to buy into it im not going to be able to force it down your throat.

(on a side note, i dont think hes all that defensively, at times i see him as being lazy in our zone.)

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02-18-2010, 02:54 PM
  #42
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Can we please stop with the Giroux to C thing. Anybody who watches that line knows it's a moronic idea idea, no ifs ands or buts about it.

That line has problems defensively and they'll only get worse as we play better teams.

I like Lavy, but the whole Carcillo in the top-6 and Giroux at C thing needs to stop.

Put him in the top-6, keep JVR on the 3rd for now unless Hartnell hits a new level of suckitude.

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02-18-2010, 02:54 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
carter is not talented enough to perform when the other team focuses on shutting him down.
Not sure I buy this...I think what shuts Carter down is himself more than any other player. However, I'm also not sure how making us weaker down the middle comes out as a net gain even if this is a real problem.

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that is my argument and/or belief if you dont want to buy into it im not going to be able to force it down your throat.
True enough.

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(on a side note, i dont think hes all that defensively, at times i see him as being lazy in our zone.)
There's some merit to this criticism. However, on the whole he's rather effective defensively...and, yes, objective statistical information backs up that statement.

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02-18-2010, 02:55 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
carter is not talented enough to perform when the other team focuses on shutting him down. that is my argument and/or belief if you dont want to buy into it im not going to be able to force it down your throat.

(on a side note, i dont think hes all that defensively, at times i see him as being lazy in our zone.)
So when he was scoring 40 goals last year, teams weren't focusing on him at all? When he's been by far our best forward this year, teams aren't focusing on him?

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02-18-2010, 03:41 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
carter is not talented enough to perform when the other team focuses on shutting him down. that is my argument and/or belief if you dont want to buy into it im not going to be able to force it down your throat.

(on a side note, i dont think hes all that defensively, at times i see him as being lazy in our zone.)
True, it's possible to shut Carter down, just as Carter does a great job shutting Malkin down too. Anyone can be shut down. The Pens shut down Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Heck, Poulin and Sutter used to team up to shut Mario down. The key is having a few options, so that when team uses it's best lines and D pairs to shut you down you can respond by punishing their lower lines and pairs. (see 'Shut down Gretzky-Kurri and Messier-Anderson-Tikkanen kill you' or vice versa).

And Carter may look lazy in our zone, but this is caused by two things:

1. He's so fast he gets back in position faster than the rush, so he has to slow down and glide to avoid overpursuing.

2. He is excellent at keeping himself between his man and the net/slot, so he isn't running around like a headless chicken, he just plays the angles, stops the opponent and goes the other way.

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02-18-2010, 03:59 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, I'm sure Carter could be an effective winger in this league if he was put there and stayed there.

However, you're ignoring some stuff in thinking about this:

1) Part of the reason you want Carter at center is because he gets the puck on his stick more at center (Note: this is why Giroux likes to play center, as well...and people like him there). You note that he looks good coming down the wing...as a center, he can go to either wing side without being out of position (he has more room to operate as a center).

2) You are completely ignoring the other side of the puck, and the defensive ramifications of taking Carter (or Richards) away from center and then replacing them with someone else. Richards is an excellent defensive center, and Carter isn't shabby himself. Carter is also our only center with any real size.

He scored 46 goals last year, is on pace for 37 this year with an outside shot at 40. It isn't broken, why are we trying to fix it?
I didnt say we need to change Carter to a permanent winger...I just think it would be an interesting idea to try him out there. This team has a history in getting into offensive slumps, Carter at LW wing gives the offense a new look if they ever need to change something up to get the offense rolling again, and also forces other teams to change their game plan. A little flexibility with the line up doesnt hurt.

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Can we please stop with the Giroux to C thing. Anybody who watches that line knows it's a moronic idea idea, no ifs ands or buts about it.
I disagree...I think Giroux is much more affective at center. He plays a foppa style game...he likes to hang on to the puck and make things happen (if you watch him hes always directing traffic out there)...and he has the talent to do it. Being at center give him more freedom. I am not sure why people think hes a defensive liability, he always gets back and plays both ends of the ice.

What frustrates me the most about this team is that they have the talent to be a top offensive team in the league, it just hasnt been there this year. If they can get guys like Briere and Gagne scoring, theres no need for outside help. I like what lavys done I just wish there was a little more creativity with the lines when the team isnt scoring. I still want see a Gagne-Giroux-Briere line....

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02-18-2010, 04:09 PM
  #47
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I didnt say we need to change Carter to a permanent winger...I just think it would be an interesting idea to try him out there. This team has a history in getting into offensive slumps, Carter at LW wing gives the offense a new look if they ever need to change something up to get the offense rolling again, and also forces other teams to change their game plan. A little flexibility with the line up doesnt hurt.
...yes, by making us easier to defend.

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I disagree...I think Giroux is much more affective at center. He plays a foppa style game...he likes to hang on to the puck and make things happen (if you watch him hes always directing traffic out there)...and he has the talent to do it. Being at center give him more freedom. I am not sure why people think hes a defensive liability, he always gets back and plays both ends of the ice.
Because when you're 180 lbs, you're a defensive liability against a guy that weighs 200+ lbs. Giroux can be the most conscientious defensive player in the league...he's at a significant disadvantage in weight and reach against most guys that play C in the league at this point.

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What frustrates me the most about this team is that they have the talent to be a top offensive team in the league, it just hasnt been there this year. If they can get guys like Briere and Gagne scoring, theres no need for outside help. I like what lavys done I just wish there was a little more creativity with the lines when the team isnt scoring. I still want see a Gagne-Giroux-Briere line....
...they're 7th in the league in scoring, and have spent the majority of the year above that position, and have a top 5 PP in the league.

They are one of the top offensive teams in the league.

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02-18-2010, 04:35 PM
  #48
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can the Flyers.....

honestly trade their most natural goal scorer at this time ?? You'd have to floor Homer with a proposal. Carter is durable, fast, great hands and still young.....

No


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02-18-2010, 04:38 PM
  #49
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...yes, by making us easier to defend.



Because when you're 180 lbs, you're a defensive liability against a guy that weighs 200+ lbs. Giroux can be the most conscientious defensive player in the league...he's at a significant disadvantage in weight and reach against most guys that play C in the league at this point.



...they're 7th in the league in scoring, and have spent the majority of the year above that position, and have a top 5 PP in the league.

They are one of the top offensive teams in the league.
would it be so terrible to TRY it before the playoffs? nothing ventured nothing gained :/

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02-18-2010, 04:40 PM
  #50
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would it be so terrible to TRY it before the playoffs? nothing ventured nothing gained :/
Do I want to screw around with Carter when it looks like he's finally gotten into a bit of a groove offensively (albeit messed up by the Olympics) and has been playing great since the beginning of the new year?

No, I do not.

Of course, I also think Giroux needs to move to wing before we get to the playoffs.

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