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HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

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Old
02-20-2010, 03:18 PM
  #151
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by hockeymaneeak View Post
Howe won 4 Stanley Cups in his 193 Year Career, 6 Hart trophies, All Star teams, blah blahblah sounds good right? Too bad there were 6 teams and even less teams than what Kharlamov had to compete against.
The Ussr league had around 9 teams. He led his championship team in points nearly every year.
You claim the USSR league was weaker? Why did the Soviet Union (Basically USSR league all stars) win every Super Series against NHL All Star teams?
Kharlamov played in a more advanced time. Howe only played against other Canucks.
Howe accomplished nothing Internationally, and I mean nothing. No Olympic competition understood, but still. It was a time when the NHL was afraid to play against the Soviets.

-11 time USSR championship
-8 WC Winner
-2 Time OLY. Gold Medalist (We'll talk about '80 a different day.)
-USSR League MVP 1972, 1973
-USSR All Star Team 1971-1976, 1978
-Scoring champion (goals) 1971
-Scoring champion (points) 1972
-IIHF All Star: 1972, 1973, 1975, 1976
-Inducted into Hockey Hall of Fame in 2005


By the way Canadians, If it weren't for Bobby Clarke fracturing Kharlamov's ankle in game 6, you lose the Summit Series.


Those Soviet national teams were losing to Canadian amateurs (players who probably mostly weren't good enough for the AHL, let alone the NHL) during Howe's career. Sorry, but Canada vs USSR in a best-on-best format in the 1950's would have seen scores similar to the ones the Canadian women's hockey team is putting up at the Olympics right now.

Even if you considered the Soviet league the complete equal of the NHL (which it most certainly wasn't), Kharlamov's accomplishments still fall far, far short of Howe's. There is considerable debate as the whether or not Kharlamov was even the best in his league. Tretiak's MVP voting record is far superior, and people make arguments for guys like Firsov and Mikhailov routinely.

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Old
02-20-2010, 03:21 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post


Those Soviet national teams were losing to Canadian amateurs (players who probably mostly weren't good enough for the AHL, let alone the NHL) during Howe's career. Sorry, but Canada vs USSR in a best-on-best format in the 1950's would have seen scores similar to the ones the Canadian women's hockey team is putting up at the Olympics right now.

Even if you considered the Soviet league the complete equal of the NHL (which it most certainly wasn't), Kharlamov's accomplishments still fall far, far short of Howe's. There is considerable debate as the whether or not Kharlamov was even the best in his league. Tretiak's MVP voting record is far superior, and people make arguments for guys like Firsov and Mikhailov routinely.
We're talking about the Russians during Kharlamov's time, not Howe's.
And I REALLY don't want to talk about Tretiak because I have my own opinion
on his greatness that most people wouldn't agree with.

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02-20-2010, 03:33 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by hockeymaneeak View Post
We're talking about the Russians during Kharlamov's time, not Howe's.
And I REALLY don't want to talk about Tretiak because I have my own opinion
on his greatness that most people wouldn't agree with.
I guess I misunderstood, but even if you were talking about Kharlamov's time this is not true at all. The Canadians had no interest in playing them because they felt that the Soviets were too inferior to offer up close competition, not because they were afraid of losing. Just the opposite. An eight-game sweep for Canada in the Summit Series was considered a certainty until they actually dropped the puck.

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02-20-2010, 03:39 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I guess I misunderstood, but even if you were talking about Kharlamov's time this is not true at all. The Canadians had no interest in playing them because they felt that the Soviets were too inferior to offer up close competition, not because they were afraid of losing. Just the opposite. An eight-game sweep for Canada in the Summit Series was considered a certainty until they actually dropped the puck.
Yeah, I worded my statement about being afraid wrong. Man, what the series that was.

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02-24-2010, 02:53 PM
  #155
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Good to see Hull at #5, he was like 9th last time I saw this.

And glad to see Orr close the gap that shouldn't even be there because he's the unquestionable #1.

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02-24-2010, 03:39 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by 99wasnotthebest View Post
Good to see Hull at #5, he was like 9th last time I saw this.

And glad to see Orr close the gap that shouldn't even be there because he's the unquestionable #1.
on a per-game basis, he absolutely is the best ever. But there's something to be said for having the durability to play at a high level for two decades. In my opinion, both Howe and Gretzky provided more value in their careers, even if Orr was better per game.

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02-24-2010, 09:52 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
on a per-game basis, he absolutely is the best ever. But there's something to be said for having the durability to play at a high level for two decades. In my opinion, both Howe and Gretzky provided more value in their careers, even if Orr was better per game.
If durability is so important, than why is Joe Sakic still being ranked below guys that he was more durable than and superior to in the playoffs. I think people just like to rank older players like trotts, bossy, lindsay and lafluer over sakic even though burnaby joe easily has the better career value.

Especially trottier, I think Joe Sakic's playoff resume and longevity in the regular season is more important than 'trottier's defense'. If Jagr gets ranked above trottier, sakic should too.

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02-24-2010, 10:55 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If durability is so important, than why is Joe Sakic still being ranked below guys that he was more durable than and superior to in the playoffs. I think people just like to rank older players like trotts, bossy, lindsay and lafluer over sakic even though burnaby joe easily has the better career value.

Especially trottier, I think Joe Sakic's playoff resume and longevity in the regular season is more important than 'trottier's defense'. If Jagr gets ranked above trottier, sakic should too.
Well, Orr was winning Norrises and Harts. So did Gretz. A lot of them.

Same thing for Lafleur.

Sakic didn't.
Don't bother replying.

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02-24-2010, 11:47 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
on a per-game basis, he absolutely is the best ever. But there's something to be said for having the durability to play at a high level for two decades. In my opinion, both Howe and Gretzky provided more value in their careers, even if Orr was better per game.
A popular sentiment, but I'm not so sure it's this clear cut. I mean, if your measuring the average "value" of an Orr game vs a Gretzky game, he'll come out ahead, but he never had a decline phase. The average per game value of Gretzky would have spent a full decade decreasing. If Gretzky retired after the 1988 season, I think it would still be highly debatable as to who was better between him and Orr.

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02-25-2010, 06:29 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, Orr was winning Norrises and Harts. So did Gretz. A lot of them.

Same thing for Lafleur.

Sakic didn't.
Don't bother replying.
Sakic's hart season is better than any of lafluers and he actually knew what defense was, on top of that his career trumps guy's anyday. Dont bother replying.

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02-25-2010, 10:21 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sakic's hart season is better than any of lafluers and he actually knew what defense was, on top of that his career trumps guy's anyday. Dont bother replying.
Joe Sakic was a great player, one of my favorites who I always felt was a bit underrated.

But I find it hard to believe anyone who saw Lafleur play whould think Sakic was the better player.

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02-26-2010, 02:01 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, Orr was winning Norrises and Harts. So did Gretz. A lot of them.

Same thing for Lafleur.

Sakic didn't.
Don't bother replying.
When did Gretz win a Norris? Or Lafleur?

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Old
02-26-2010, 04:56 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
A popular sentiment, but I'm not so sure it's this clear cut. I mean, if your measuring the average "value" of an Orr game vs a Gretzky game, he'll come out ahead, but he never had a decline phase. The average per game value of Gretzky would have spent a full decade decreasing. If Gretzky retired after the 1988 season, I think it would still be highly debatable as to who was better between him and Orr.
That is a very good point. I decided to put it to the test the best way I can, which is judging the impact they had on the goal differentials of their teams in their 8 best seasons. Luckily, they each had an 8-year peak in which they were healthy and dominant and on similarly strong teams. Gretzky obviously had a much bigger offensive impact, and Orr a more defensive one. But which one was larger?

Orr's best 8 seasons for adjusted +/- (1968-1975): 29 59 60 96 76 42 57 86
Gretzky (1980-1987): 30 63 55 27 43 80 36 59

Totals:

Orr: 505
Gretzky: 393

I still say Orr was the best player per-game. I admit it's close and this is a perfect example of why Gretzky and Howe (who I believe would have had a similar peak if the numbers existed) should rank ahead of Orr on an all-time list - they bridge the talent gap with longevity, durability, and consistency.

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02-26-2010, 04:20 PM
  #164
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When did Gretz win a Norris? Or Lafleur?
...you the point.
Still, as a professional writer, that's kindof inexcusable.

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03-03-2010, 05:24 PM
  #165
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Isn't that a top 70, or am I being dumb?

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03-03-2010, 07:23 PM
  #166
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Yeah, it got derailed. I am still hoping I can get it going.
Posted via Mobile Device

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03-09-2010, 05:52 PM
  #167
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is Shore or Doug Harvey ever going to get replaced by a d-man from this era, on this list. (like a Scotty Niedermayer [recent], Tyler Myers [future])

i didn't get the chance to watch either greats play. But the game has changed so much

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03-09-2010, 06:42 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
is Shore or Doug Harvey ever going to get replaced by a d-man from this era, on this list. (like a Scotty Niedermayer [recent], Tyler Myers [future])

i didn't get the chance to watch either greats play. But the game has changed so much
Shore and Harvey were both generational superstars. Until somebody comes along that has the abilities/potential of a Crosby or Ovechkin but plays defense, we're not going to see them challenged. Lidstrom is the closest among active players, but is still a sizeable step down from those two. With all due respect to Niedermayer, he doesn't belong in a top 100 list, let alone top 10. Myers and Doughty look like they will be superstars, but reaching a Shore/Harvey level seems unlikely.

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03-09-2010, 07:00 PM
  #169
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Dammit, too much hard work went into this for it to die on the vine because FF has no time for it anymore. We've got to take this over.

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03-09-2010, 08:11 PM
  #170
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Dammit, too much hard work went into this for it to die on the vine because FF has no time for it anymore. We've got to take this over.
What are people's thoughts on the idea of re-submitting a list of 50 players (71-120) and continuing on with the same format? The reason I say this is because FF doesn't seem to be around anymore so we may not have access to the orginal tally from when we submitted our Top 120 lists.

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03-09-2010, 08:12 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
What are people's thoughts on the idea of re-submitting a list of 50 players (71-120) and continuing on with the same format? The reason I say this is because FF doesn't seem to be around anymore so we may not have access to the orginal tally from when we submitted our Top 120 lists.
I think this is a great idea.

I know my list of 50 would be a lot different than the one I submitted to FF anyway.

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03-09-2010, 09:17 PM
  #172
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I think this is a great idea.

I know my list of 50 would be a lot different than the one I submitted to FF anyway.
mine would be a lot different too.

I am behind this idea 100%.

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03-09-2010, 09:29 PM
  #173
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Not So...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
What are people's thoughts on the idea of re-submitting a list of 50 players (71-120) and continuing on with the same format? The reason I say this is because FF doesn't seem to be around anymore so we may not have access to the orginal tally from when we submitted our Top 120 lists.
FF is definitely around:

http://hfboards.com/search.php?searchid=9694548

Quite active the last few months.

Cold pizza even reheated is cold pizza.

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03-09-2010, 10:33 PM
  #174
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It's no concern to me whether he is not here, or just not interested. We are. I'd like to see this through.

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03-10-2010, 11:16 AM
  #175
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You know, I think at this point that even if FF had the originally submitted lists, I'd still rather re-submit 71-120.

I'm definitely down for this. Do we want to start relatively soon or wait for the ATD to finish in a few months?

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