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RW Martin Frk - Halifax Mooseheads, QMJHL (2012 Draft)

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Old
02-15-2010, 08:46 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
If the quality of players has declined significantly in a program can it be anything but weaker?



I didn't say it was.



Making an outrageous claim without a valid basis for it is hype. Really good players can be severely overhyped.
1) The programs may have always stayed the same, just not as many players with natural ability have been coming through.

2) How is there no valid basis for this player, he has some pretty nice credentials already?

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02-15-2010, 09:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Gman3 View Post
1) The programs may have always stayed the same, just not as many players with natural ability have been coming through.
We're arguing different points here. The Czech program may be following the same development procedures and having less success because of a lack of natural talents. I agree with you there. However, the competition in the leagues that are a part of the Czech development program will suffer because of a lack of naturally talented players. One effect of that could be inflated stats for any more talented player that comes through the league.

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Originally Posted by Gman3 View Post
2) How is there no valid basis for this player, he has some pretty nice credentials already?
What I'm saying is that I don't believe alesmarv has a valid basis for saying Frk is "head and shoulders" better than a guy like Frolik was at the same age based on the facts he's presented. The comment is just hype.

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02-15-2010, 10:18 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
We're arguing different points here. The Czech program may be following the same development procedures and having less success because of a lack of natural talents. I agree with you there. However, the competition in the leagues that are a part of the Czech development program will suffer because of a lack of naturally talented players. One effect of that could be inflated stats for any more talented player that comes through the league.



What I'm saying is that I don't believe alesmarv has a valid basis for saying Frk is "head and shoulders" better than a guy like Frolik was at the same age based on the facts he's presented. The comment is just hype.
1) I will say I have heard criticism of the program recently, if it's true or not is to be determined.

2) If like you say Frolik had similar credentials, then I suppose I agree, at the same time though we also don't maybe know enough about him to say that he probably won't be any better than Frolik, would you agree with that?


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02-16-2010, 01:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
How exactly can you make a statement like that? You're in western Canada so it's certainly not from having seen them all play at the same age. It seems to me you're basing the argument around stats. Considering the Czech junior programs were in a much better state five years ago than they are now, this seems like a very poor basis for an argument (though most would say it's a very poor basis for an argument either way)

Frolik played in the U18 wjc's as a 15 year old and the U20 wjc's as a 16 year old. He also played extensively in the Czech Extraliga as a 16 year old. Frk hasn't done any of those things yet.

Voracek, while not having the list of accomplishments Frolik had accumulated, had very good stats as a 16 year old in junior play as well. That said, I don't remember anyone hyping him the way you're hyping Frk.

To bring some other players into the conversation, Michael Repik had very comparable stats to Frk at the same age. He didn't get a whole lot of hype either.

For a more recent example, Richard Panik's stats were better than Frk's at the same point in development. Again, he didn't get the kind of hype you're giving Frk.

Frk may end up a very high NHL draft pick but the hype you're putting on him is just excessive at this point. It's not just this thread either. You've taken every chance you could to pour it on with him. I don't think you're being very objective here at all.

So, he's got his thread now and I'm sure you'll keep us all up to date on him. That's cool, but I hope there'll be more substance and less hype in the future.
I entirely agree with everything you said in this thread. I think Im the only one in this thread who has been following Czech juniors on regular basis for years so I can express legitimate view. 1.Frolik and Voracek were better prospects than Frk in his age, no doubt about it. 2.Czech junior Extraleague was much superior five years ago.

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02-16-2010, 01:37 AM
  #30
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Nail Yakupov no less talented.

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02-16-2010, 02:33 AM
  #31
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Czech hockey currently does not emit as much talent...
I love you, Google Translator.

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
here we go....let the overhyping begin...
Yeah, I'd rather hear about some USNDPT DMan who'll be a massive steal in the sixth round this year.

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02-16-2010, 12:41 PM
  #32
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As far as Czech talents go, how does he compare to Michael Frolik at the same age?

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02-16-2010, 01:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NoThreat View Post
As far as Czech talents go, how does he compare to Michael Frolik at the same age?
Czechexpert already asnwere that a couple of posts above.

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02-17-2010, 03:15 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
How exactly can you make a statement like that? You're in western Canada so it's certainly not from having seen them all play at the same age. It seems to me you're basing the argument around stats. Considering the Czech junior programs were in a much better state five years ago than they are now, this seems like a very poor basis for an argument (though most would say it's a very poor basis for an argument either way)

Frolik played in the U18 wjc's as a 15 year old and the U20 wjc's as a 16 year old. He also played extensively in the Czech Extraliga as a 16 year old. Frk hasn't done any of those things yet.

Voracek, while not having the list of accomplishments Frolik had accumulated, had very good stats as a 16 year old in junior play as well. That said, I don't remember anyone hyping him the way you're hyping Frk.

To bring some other players into the conversation, Michael Repik had very comparable stats to Frk at the same age. He didn't get a whole lot of hype either.

For a more recent example, Richard Panik's stats were better than Frk's at the same point in development. Again, he didn't get the kind of hype you're giving Frk.

Frk may end up a very high NHL draft pick but the hype you're putting on him is just excessive at this point. It's not just this thread either. You've taken every chance you could to pour it on with him. I don't think you're being very objective here at all.

So, he's got his thread now and I'm sure you'll keep us all up to date on him. That's cool, but I hope there'll be more substance and less hype in the future.
I have seen all three play in juniors, I travel back and forth between Prague and Vancouver all the time as I am from Prague, and currently live in Vancouver. I havent seen Frk play live since last year but I still do think he is a better player, he has a strong drive, a game that is more suited to NA, and he is I beleive a biger player at the same age.

Regarding Frolik, he turned 17 when he played in the extra league and did that one season before his draft season. If you want to compare the two then compare Froliks 2003-2004 season to Frks 2009-2010 season, it would make much more sense. In 2003-2004 Frolik played in the Juniors putting up 21goals and 23 assists for 44 points in 53 games while scoring 2 goals in 5 games for the U18 team and 4 goals and 7 assists for 11 points in 15 games for U17 team. Frk will play for Karlovy Vary next year im sure, and likely the U20 team which will be the same progression as Frolik. Simply put Frk imo is a better NHL prospect and is accomplishing as much or more then Frolik at the same age(two years before his draft), and Voracek. Number wise if you dont want to look at juniors(which Frk has produced at a much higher clip then Frolik, while at the same time being on pace to spend more then a extra 180min in the penalty box in the same amount of games compared to Froliks 03-04 season, and over 120pm extra in the 04-05 season). We can look at what Frk has done on the national teams on which he as dominated while Frolik was simply very good.

In the end it comes down to personal opinion and I think Frk is shaping up to be a special player. Also your right I am maybe too excited about this prospect but realy there has been absolutly nothing to be excited about in Czech hockey for a few years.

Panik the most recent example also didnt accomplish the same things two before his draft, two years before his draft he put up 16 goals and 9 assists for 25 points in 27 games. The year after that he put up 1.6points per game compared to Frks 1.4 this year. Keep in mind Frk plays a aggressive style of game and like I mentioned has been spending crap loads of time in the penalty box, equivalent to a good chunck of the games. Now sure PIM arent always a good thing but imo a bit of aggressiveness from a Czech hockey player isnt a bad thing once it gets under control.

Time will tell and I will refrain from posting here until after the april tournament. i thought it was a good time to start a thread dedicated to this player because imo he will need one sooner or later.


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Old
02-17-2010, 04:22 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by alesmarv View Post
I have seen all three play in juniors, I travel back and forth between Prague and Vancouver all the time as I am from Prague, and currently live in Vancouver. I havent seen Frk play live since last year but I still do think he is a better player, he has a strong drive, a game that is more suited to NA, and he is I beleive a biger player at the same age.

Regarding Frolik, he turned 17 when he played in the extra league and did that one season before his draft season. If you want to compare the two then compare Froliks 2003-2004 season to Frks 2009-2010 season, it would make much more sense. In 2003-2004 Frolik played in the Juniors putting up 21goals and 23 assists for 44 points in 53 games while scoring 2 goals in 5 games for the U18 team and 4 goals and 7 assists for 11 points in 15 games for U17 team. Frk will play for Karlovy Vary next year im sure, and likely the U20 team which will be the same progression as Frolik. Simply put Frk imo is a better NHL prospect and is accomplishing as much or more then Frolik at the same age(two years before his draft), and Voracek. Number wise if you dont want to look at juniors(which Frk has produced at a much higher clip then Frolik, while at the same time being on pace to spend more then a extra 180min in the penalty box in the same amount of games compared to Froliks 03-04 season, and over 120pm extra in the 04-05 season). We can look at what Frk has done on the national teams on which he as dominated while Frolik was simply very good.

In the end it comes down to personal opinion and I think Frk is shaping up to be a special player. Also your right I am maybe too excited about this prospect but realy there has been absolutly nothing to be excited about in Czech hockey for a few years.

Panik the most recent example also didnt accomplish the same things two before his draft, two years before his draft he put up 16 goals and 9 assists for 25 points in 27 games. The year after that he put up 1.6points per game compared to Frks 1.4 this year. Keep in mind Frk plays a aggressive style of game and like I mentioned has been spending crap loads of time in the penalty box, equivalent to a good chunck of the games. Now sure PIM arent always a good thing but imo a bit of aggressiveness from a Czech hockey player isnt a bad thing once it gets under control.

Time will tell and I will refrain from posting here until after the april tournament. i thought it was a good time to start a thread dedicated to this player because imo he will need one sooner or later.
Frolik was much better skater than Frk, actually Frks skating ability is very average which could be problem at higher level. Both Frolik and Voracek had great hockey sense and better hands than Frk. Also Frolik and Voracek were much less physically developed than Frk at same age which is IMO very important.
Tomas Knotek simply dominated in Czech junior Extraleague as underage the way Frk does and still was(is) not NHL prospect.
I dont say that Frk isnt NHL prospect but Im not that excited.

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02-17-2010, 09:26 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by alesmarv View Post
I have seen all three play in juniors, I travel back and forth between Prague and Vancouver all the time as I am from Prague, and currently live in Vancouver. I havent seen Frk play live since last year but I still do think he is a better player, he has a strong drive, a game that is more suited to NA, and he is I beleive a biger player at the same age.

Regarding Frolik, he turned 17 when he played in the extra league and did that one season before his draft season. If you want to compare the two then compare Froliks 2003-2004 season to Frks 2009-2010 season, it would make much more sense. In 2003-2004 Frolik played in the Juniors putting up 21goals and 23 assists for 44 points in 53 games while scoring 2 goals in 5 games for the U18 team and 4 goals and 7 assists for 11 points in 15 games for U17 team. Frk will play for Karlovy Vary next year im sure, and likely the U20 team which will be the same progression as Frolik. Simply put Frk imo is a better NHL prospect and is accomplishing as much or more then Frolik at the same age(two years before his draft), and Voracek. Number wise if you dont want to look at juniors(which Frk has produced at a much higher clip then Frolik, while at the same time being on pace to spend more then a extra 180min in the penalty box in the same amount of games compared to Froliks 03-04 season, and over 120pm extra in the 04-05 season). We can look at what Frk has done on the national teams on which he as dominated while Frolik was simply very good.

In the end it comes down to personal opinion and I think Frk is shaping up to be a special player. Also your right I am maybe too excited about this prospect but realy there has been absolutly nothing to be excited about in Czech hockey for a few years.

Panik the most recent example also didnt accomplish the same things two before his draft, two years before his draft he put up 16 goals and 9 assists for 25 points in 27 games. The year after that he put up 1.6points per game compared to Frks 1.4 this year. Keep in mind Frk plays a aggressive style of game and like I mentioned has been spending crap loads of time in the penalty box, equivalent to a good chunck of the games. Now sure PIM arent always a good thing but imo a bit of aggressiveness from a Czech hockey player isnt a bad thing once it gets under control.

Time will tell and I will refrain from posting here until after the april tournament. i thought it was a good time to start a thread dedicated to this player because imo he will need one sooner or later.
My fault for the assumption that you hadn't seen all three play in juniors. From reading previous posts I got that impression but I should have waited to confirm it.

The way you're comparing stats as far as Frk's late birthdate is concerned is very debatable. He's in his 16 year old season as far as his developmental experience goes so I'd be comparing his stats to the following year of each of the examples you cite. Being an earlier birthdate can give an advantage over later birthdate players in a year but you've still grown up playing in that group together. Even if we look at it the way you are Repik's stats would be comparable.

It's good to know about all these things we're discussing here and I'm sure those reading will be able to form an opinion and watch like the rest of us to see how it all progress' for Frk.

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02-17-2010, 01:24 PM
  #37
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It will be intresting to see which 5 prospects THN will rank for 2012 in the next Future Watch issue. Frk,Grigorenko,Yakupov,Forsberg & at this rate it seems 2012 could be a very good draft year.

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02-17-2010, 02:33 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
It will be intresting to see which 5 prospects THN will rank for 2012 in the next Future Watch issue. Frk,Grigorenko,Yakupov,Forsberg & at this rate it seems 2012 could be a very good draft year.
It will be interesting for sure...those are the 4 names I keep hearing about. I do find it interesting that none of those 4 are Canadian or American, although I might be wrong about Forsberg. Is he Canadian? Either way, I somehow doubt come 2012 draft day that 3 or 4 Europeans will go in the top 5. I am by no means a homer, but historically it just doesn't happen very often, if ever.

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02-17-2010, 02:38 PM
  #39
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It will be interesting for sure...those are the 4 names I keep hearing about. I do find it interesting that none of those 4 are Canadian or American, although I might be wrong about Forsberg. Is he Canadian? Either way, I somehow doubt come 2012 draft day that 3 or 4 Europeans will go in the top 5. I am by no means a homer, but historically it just doesn't happen very often, if ever.
Forsberg is Canadian.

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02-17-2010, 03:48 PM
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Ok I lied I will respond once more. I completely agree that Frolik was considerably more skilled, thats why they called him baby Jagr. But there was one thing Frolik always lacked and that was drive, just like Panik, and although imo Voracek has drive he doesnt have that fire in his game like Frk does. I think the fight that Frk shows is more important because it cannot be taught. He isnt more skilled then Frolik at the same age but I think he is a better player, his pure skill will improve and he will get better, he is only 16, and frankly he isnt exactly unskilled as it is. Its his mental game and drive that im excited, I cant remember a Czech player like him, he has what almost all the recent high picks out of Czech republic severely lacked.
In any case Frk and Musil are the best Czech players coming up, before these two there has been nothing to be excited about since Voracek.

Oh Frk at the start of his 2009-2010 season was 4.5 months younger then Frolik at the start of his 2003-2004 season. The age difference is 4 months with Voracek. Sure it helps Frk but 4 months isnt that significant. We will see how Frk progresses next year when he should get the same opportunities Frolik got in his 2004-2005 season. I know most of you heard about Frk more then a year ago now and it would seem that he has progressed nicely since then instead of stagnating.


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02-17-2010, 04:01 PM
  #41
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Ok I lied I will respond once more. I completely agree that Frolik was considerably more skilled, thats why they called him baby Jagr. But there was one thing Frolik always lacked and that was drive, just like Panik, and although imo Voracek has drive he doesnt have that fire in his game like Frk does. I think the fight that Frk shows is more important because it cannot be taught. He isnt more skilled then Frolik at the same age but I think he is a better player, his pure skill will improve and he will get better, he is only 16, and frankly he isnt a bad player as it is. Its his mental game and drive that im excited, I cant remember a Czech player like him, he has what almost all the recent high picks out of Czech republic severely lacked.
In any case Frk and Musil are the best Czech players coming up, before these two there has been nothing to be excited about since Voracek.
Voracek had same drive as Frk, of course Frk is more physical but Voracek had same passion and determination as Frk and he was more of team player, Frk is selfish at times.
I would not compare Panik and Frolik at all, Panik very probably wont be player, he lacks desire and competitiveness.
Frk is physically much more developed than Frolik at the same age which from my standpoint is not very positive. As I said, Frk is very average skater while Frolik was always excellent skater, plus had better hands and higher hockey IQ.

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02-23-2010, 02:33 PM
  #42
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Frolik isn't the only Czech who has had good credentials before he got drafted and before he made the NHL, Olesz was even better for instance.

If the Czech programs are supposedly worse now, is it maybe because alot of young players come over to play in North America?


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02-23-2010, 02:47 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by alesmarv View Post
I have seen all three play in juniors, I travel back and forth between Prague and Vancouver all the time as I am from Prague, and currently live in Vancouver. I havent seen Frk play live since last year but I still do think he is a better player, he has a strong drive, a game that is more suited to NA, and he is I beleive a biger player at the same age.

Regarding Frolik, he turned 17 when he played in the extra league and did that one season before his draft season. If you want to compare the two then compare Froliks 2003-2004 season to Frks 2009-2010 season, it would make much more sense. In 2003-2004 Frolik played in the Juniors putting up 21goals and 23 assists for 44 points in 53 games while scoring 2 goals in 5 games for the U18 team and 4 goals and 7 assists for 11 points in 15 games for U17 team. Frk will play for Karlovy Vary next year im sure, and likely the U20 team which will be the same progression as Frolik. Simply put Frk imo is a better NHL prospect and is accomplishing as much or more then Frolik at the same age(two years before his draft), and Voracek. Number wise if you dont want to look at juniors(which Frk has produced at a much higher clip then Frolik, while at the same time being on pace to spend more then a extra 180min in the penalty box in the same amount of games compared to Froliks 03-04 season, and over 120pm extra in the 04-05 season). We can look at what Frk has done on the national teams on which he as dominated while Frolik was simply very good.

In the end it comes down to personal opinion and I think Frk is shaping up to be a special player. Also your right I am maybe too excited about this prospect but realy there has been absolutly nothing to be excited about in Czech hockey for a few years.

Panik the most recent example also didnt accomplish the same things two before his draft, two years before his draft he put up 16 goals and 9 assists for 25 points in 27 games. The year after that he put up 1.6points per game compared to Frks 1.4 this year. Keep in mind Frk plays a aggressive style of game and like I mentioned has been spending crap loads of time in the penalty box, equivalent to a good chunck of the games. Now sure PIM arent always a good thing but imo a bit of aggressiveness from a Czech hockey player isnt a bad thing once it gets under control.

Time will tell and I will refrain from posting here until after the april tournament. i thought it was a good time to start a thread dedicated to this player because imo he will need one sooner or later.
Panik is Slovak, or is it because he played in the Czech. Rep.?

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02-23-2010, 03:14 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
It will be intresting to see which 5 prospects THN will rank for 2012 in the next Future Watch issue. Frk,Grigorenko,Yakupov,Forsberg & at this rate it seems 2012 could be a very good draft year.
Forsbert? do you mean Alex Forsberg or Filip if it is Alex he is not ranked untill 2013 and i dont think Filip is that good to go that high....I think Nick Ebert could be up there for a possible pick that high or Sebastien Colleberg


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02-23-2010, 05:29 PM
  #45
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Forsbert? do you mean Alex Forsberg or Filip if it is Alex he is not ranked untill 2013 and i dont think Filip is that good to go that high....I think Nick Ebert could be up there for a possible pick that high or Sebastien Colleberg
I think he means Jesse Forsberg or whatever. That's the only Canadian Forsberg I've heard of anyway.

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02-23-2010, 05:46 PM
  #46
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I think he means Jesse Forsberg or whatever. That's the only Canadian Forsberg I've heard of anyway.
Alex Forsberg is Jesse's younger brother. Playing major midget- which is very rare for kids in their WHL draft year. Almost certain first pick in the WHL draft.

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02-23-2010, 06:39 PM
  #47
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I think he means Jesse Forsberg or whatever. That's the only Canadian Forsberg I've heard of anyway.
he can't be ranked for 2012 he is 2011 ranked....and he did not say canadian just Forsberg so could be Filip Forsberg from sweden he is the only forsberg for 2012 i know of.

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02-23-2010, 10:01 PM
  #48
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he can't be ranked for 2012 he is 2011 ranked....and he did not say canadian just Forsberg so could be Filip Forsberg from sweden he is the only forsberg for 2012 i know of.
I'm pretty sure it's the Canadian.

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Old
02-24-2010, 08:58 AM
  #49
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There are just too many Forsberg's in the upcoming drafts for me to keep track of them all. Can someone knowledgeable please list them all, their countries, and where they are expected to go in their respected drafts (top 5, first round, second round, etc.)?

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02-24-2010, 09:42 AM
  #50
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What's the big deal with this guy? I don't see it.

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