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Rinne's deal sets the bar for Halak?

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Old
02-25-2010, 03:28 PM
  #76
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Playing for .936 and having a 2.06 GAA in playoff is shaky to you? Damn, I wish he was always that shakey

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02-25-2010, 03:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Xyklok View Post
Playing for .936 and having a 2.06 GAA in playoff is shaky to you? Damn, I wish he was always that shakey
We're talking about the Calder Cup, and the games he played in Hamilton, he was awful.

I'm not a Price hater, I want our team to win, and right now Jaro is the better goalie.

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02-25-2010, 03:45 PM
  #78
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Lmfao this thread makes me laugh, are you people actually serious about giving Halak 3+Million when has played one game in the playoffs and choked. Don't forget he was a AHL #'1/Nhl back-up the last 2 years which made his NHL numbers inflatted.

Both the goalies want to be #1's so I doubt after this year they both sign with Montreal. Sorry to burst your bubbles but any GM would sign Price before Halak, so IMO Halak will be traded at the draft or July.

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02-25-2010, 03:48 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
No way Habs can afford two goalies in the 3 million range and both wanting to play.
Why not $6m is pretty much the standard budget for goalies in the NHL.

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02-25-2010, 04:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
Sorry, but that Calder Cup was not won on Carey Prices shoulders, Halak was the goalie for that team, and could have taken us the whole way, but Gainey sent him to the world championships. Carey looked Shakey even at the AHL level, and when he was in Hamilton the next season, he looked like ****. Don't question it because I was there for every home game and a few road games too.
hahahahaha

...


hahaha

Price gained his reputation from EVERYBODY for that Calder Cup performance. You're the single individual and in a 0.000001% minority.

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02-25-2010, 04:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by JohnnyReb View Post
I'm not sure Quick is a good comparison at all... he signed that extension at the beginning of this year, after having only played one full season in the NHL, and with only 47 NHL games under his belt. And even then his numbers were rather mediocre, with a .914 save percentage that season (.910 this year). And despite all THAT he's still getting $1,8 million per year, which would suggest to me at least, that $1.8 million is the STARTING point for negotiations, which would then only go up.

To compare, when Quick signed his $1.8 million extension:

* Quick was 24, Halak is 24
* Quick had played 47 NHL games, Halak has played 86 (and counting of course)
* Quick had a .914 save percentage (career), Halak had a .917 save percentage (career) and currently has a .923 save percentage

If you think Halak is going to sign for LESS than what Quick signed for, I would love to hear your logic...
I think Quick had conclusively established himself as his team's #1 NHL starter, however, when he signed the extension. I'm not sure that Halak has quite done that yet. Still. So the games played is somewhat misleading... over the same time period from last year to signing the extension, Quick had played more games than Halak. And that's with a number of Halak's games coming while he was ostensibly a pure backup goalie filling in for an injured Price.

I think the biggest comparison advantage is Quick's RFA status vs. the impending UFA status of others like Rinne. It's a huge difference. No comparable is exact. But Quick is much closer to Halak than Rinne is to Halak IMHO.

That said, I also think the Kings have a bargain with that deal. And you can't expect to get a bargain just because another team did. Especially in that the Kings got him at that price for 3 years. But heading into arbitration, I'd certainly come armed with the Quick deal on the Habs side. Technically, Rinne is not even a valid comparable at all, since he was an impending UFA. What other impending-RFAs signed starter-level deals recently?

Again, no comparable is going to be perfect. But in terms of building a case, I still can't see Halak getting much more than $2M. He can ask for whatever he wants. He won't get it, though. Unless our management is asleep at the switch.

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02-25-2010, 04:07 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
hahahahaha

...


hahaha

Price gained his reputation from EVERYBODY for that Calder Cup performance. You're the single individual and in a 0.000001% minority.
I love to see such hating toward Price even one of his accomplishments that all were saying a the time that he as been amazing is now reduced

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02-25-2010, 04:08 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
Lmfao this thread makes me laugh, are you people actually serious about giving Halak 3+Million when has played one game in the playoffs and choked. Don't forget he was a AHL #'1/Nhl back-up the last 2 years which made his NHL numbers inflatted.

Both the goalies want to be #1's so I doubt after this year they both sign with Montreal. Sorry to burst your bubbles but any GM would sign Price before Halak, so IMO Halak will be traded at the draft or July.
Please take one minute to read JohnnyReb’s post scottyG:

JohnnyReb’s post

(1) Do you agree that Quick’s contract is the low benchmark for the upcoming negotiation with Halak?

(2) Halak is having a great Olympics tournament and is one of the main reasons why our Habs are still in the midst of a tight playoff race... right?

(3) How much would you offer to Halak?

I see a 2 - 2,5M$ cap hit until he reaches UFA status; maybe more if he is willing to "sacrifice" one year of free agency.

As for "... Sorry to burst your bubbles but any GM would sign Price before Halak, so IMO Halak will be traded at the draft or July."... well that’s you opinion. Personally I doubt Pierre Gauthier intends to ship away his number one goalie.

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02-25-2010, 04:15 PM
  #84
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[QUOTE=Kjell Dahlin;24120761
(2) Halak is having a great Olympics tournament and is one of the main reasons why our Habs are still in the midst of a tight playoff race... right?[/QUOTE]

For the Olympics argument, yes he is having a good one and I love seeing that, but that will not be highly taken into consideration IMO alot of players for many reasons perform very well in international competition, but you don't give them more money for that, look at Zednik or Demitra they have a good olympic tournament, but they cannot negotiate with that argument. They need to perform in their league.

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02-25-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyWarrior View Post
For the Olympics Arguments yes He is having a good one and I love seeing that, but that will not be highly into consideration alot of players for many reasons perform very well in international competition, but you don't give them more money for that look at Zednik or Demitrathey have a good olympic, but they cannot negotiate with that argument they need to perform in their league.
I agree but at the same time I can see a guy like Jagr (if he wants to return) using it (his Olympic performance) as a selling instrument. You mentioned "... that will not be highly into consideration..." so I guess we both agree: it does have an impact but it’s a limited one.

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02-25-2010, 04:25 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
We're talking about the Calder Cup, and the games he played in Hamilton, he was awful.

I'm not a Price hater, I want our team to win, and right now Jaro is the better goalie.
awful? wow you must be really tough on goalies then, cause other then two or so games, Price was freaking great in the playoffs. Or maybe the AHL just wanted to make some headlines when they named him the youngest playoff MVP in the leagues 75 year history?

The Dogs won that cup based in large part to Chipchura's line, the defense and Price, imo.

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02-25-2010, 04:27 PM
  #87
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FWIW, hopefully without stealing any thunder from scottyG...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Please take one minute to read JohnnyReb’s post scottyG:

JohnnyReb’s post

(1) Do you agree that Quick’s contract is the low benchmark for the upcoming negotiation with Halak?
Especially because of the 3-year term, yes. That said, in a negotiation, if it is indeed the best comparable out there (I haven't gone through and looked myself yet), you don't act like it's the "low benchmark". If it is the best comparable, and you're in arbitration, you hammer at this as your value.
Quote:
(2) Halak is having a great Olympics tournament and is one of the main reasons why our Habs are still in the midst of a tight playoff race... right?
The first part is irrelevant, however. The second part also has a lot of "TBD" value attached to it, IMHO. Let's see if Halak does keep us in the playoff race. Let's see if the Habs make the playoffs. Let's see if Halak plays in the playoffs and how well. I could see the remaining portion of this season having a disproportionate swing value on what contract he might ultimately get.
Quote:
(3) How much would you offer to Halak?

I see a 2 - 2,5M$ cap hit until he reaches UFA status; maybe more if he is willing to "sacrifice" one year of free agency.
On July 1st 2010, Halak will be 25.
On July 1st 2011, Halak will be 26.
On July 1st 2012, Halak would get his first chance at UFAdom, right?
I'd like to sign him for 1 or 3 years, then.

For 1 year, I'd consider offering him $2M. But timing would matter. Because we have a tight budget and if other players (Plekanec esp., also to a lesser extent Pouliot and Price) have already settled before him, then it could affect that offer to some minimal extent. But there isn't too much wiggle room there.

For 3 years, hm. $2-2.5-3M might be doable. It would still be risky, he still *hasn't* proven himself entirely, and in my mind it would be a generous offer, but what the heck.

Either one beats what he'd get in arbitration IMHO. Still pending the conclusion of this season, of course. (Hopefully he wins the Conn Smythe trophy and gets a $4M contract, actually! ).

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02-25-2010, 04:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I agree but at the same time I can see a guy like Jagr (if he wants to return) using it (his Olympic performance) as a selling instrument. You mentioned "... that will not be highly into consideration..." so I guess we both agree: it does have an impact but it’s a limited one.
Yeah, I think it can resume well my thought, I was saying this to temper the effects that a good Olympic performance could have IMO some people are thinking that it would change greatly his value. I'm still thinking that in Halak case the Montreal Canadiens are in a good position of negotation, because of Halak RFA statue and the presence of an alternative (Price). So IMO Halak will get the 2 millions range (+- 0,2). Also with a guy like Bourque have got only 3,3 million cap hit that (I know he is a forward) I could see the market for signature to be low this year (probably some effect of the recession the cap could still be the same next year) wich is something that could be interesting for us(the low market).

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02-25-2010, 04:42 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
FWIW, hopefully without stealing any thunder from scottyG...

Especially because of the 3-year term, yes. That said, in a negotiation, if it is indeed the best comparable out there (I haven't gone through and looked myself yet), you don't act like it's the "low benchmark". If it is the best comparable, and you're in arbitration, you hammer at this as your value.
The first part is irrelevant, however. The second part also has a lot of "TBD" value attached to it, IMHO. Let's see if Halak does keep us in the playoff race. Let's see if the Habs make the playoffs. Let's see if Halak plays in the playoffs and how well. I could see the remaining portion of this season having a disproportionate swing value on what contract he might ultimately get.

On July 1st 2010, Halak will be 25.
On July 1st 2011, Halak will be 26.
On July 1st 2012, Halak would get his first chance at UFAdom, right?
I'd like to sign him for 1 or 3 years, then.

For 1 year, I'd consider offering him $2M. But timing would matter. Because we have a tight budget and if other players (Plekanec esp., also to a lesser extent Pouliot and Price) have already settled before him, then it could affect that offer to some minimal extent. But there isn't too much wiggle room there.

For 3 years, hm. $2-2.5-3M might be doable. It would still be risky, he still *hasn't* proven himself entirely, and in my mind it would be a generous offer, but what the heck.

Either one beats what he'd get in arbitration IMHO. Still pending the conclusion of this season, of course. (Hopefully he wins the Conn Smythe trophy and gets a $4M contract, actually! ).

You'll get no argument from me; especially when you mentioned: "... I could see the remaining portion of this season having a disproportionate swing value on what contract he might ultimately get...".

Well... all that "I agree" stuff is somewhat boring eh? Let me try something different... so... does Halak speak French?

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02-25-2010, 04:48 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You'll get no argument from me; especially when you mentioned: "... I could see the remaining portion of this season having a disproportionate swing value on what contract he might ultimately get...".

Well... all that "I agree" stuff is somewhat boring eh? Let me try something different... so... does Halak speak French?
You're right we need to be more mean.

Kjell Dahlin, Halak will have only 500 000, because he his a bad goaltender all he has done is fluke you evil man.

If he learn french he could get 4 millions by years and I will have no problem with that.

Now we have a real debate we can be real whiny Habs fans


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02-25-2010, 04:49 PM
  #91
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awful? wow you must be really tough on goalies then, cause other then two or so games, Price was freaking great in the playoffs. Or maybe the AHL just wanted to make some headlines when they named him the youngest playoff MVP in the leagues 75 year history?

The Dogs won that cup based in large part to Chipchura's line, the defense and Price, imo.
Like I said, I was there. He wasn't great, but he wasnt terrible. That team was the best dogs team I've ever seen. Halak would have won the cup with them too. He was named MVP because without him we wouldn't have won (Since Halak was gone, and Yann Danis was awful)

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02-25-2010, 04:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
Like I said, I was there. He wasn't great, but he wasnt terrible. That team was the best dogs team I've ever seen. Halak would have won the cup with them too. He was named MVP because without him we wouldn't have won (Since Halak was gone, and Yann Danis was awful)
So you think that team was better then the '02-'03 Dogs? That was the best AHL team I ever saw, I still don't know how they didn't win the calder that year, too bad they ran out of gas in game 7.

Still what your saying is confusing. So you say Price wasn't great, but he was the reason why the Dogs won the cup. I saw the games, and I thought Price was great and he was one of the biggest reasons why the Dogs won the cup despite being underdogs in every series.

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02-25-2010, 04:54 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think Quick had conclusively established himself as his team's #1 NHL starter, however, when he signed the extension. I'm not sure that Halak has quite done that yet. Still. So the games played is somewhat misleading... over the same time period from last year to signing the extension, Quick had played more games than Halak. And that's with a number of Halak's games coming while he was ostensibly a pure backup goalie filling in for an injured Price.

I think the biggest comparison advantage is Quick's RFA status vs. the impending UFA status of others like Rinne. It's a huge difference. No comparable is exact. But Quick is much closer to Halak than Rinne is to Halak IMHO.

That said, I also think the Kings have a bargain with that deal. And you can't expect to get a bargain just because another team did. Especially in that the Kings got him at that price for 3 years. But heading into arbitration, I'd certainly come armed with the Quick deal on the Habs side. Technically, Rinne is not even a valid comparable at all, since he was an impending UFA. What other impending-RFAs signed starter-level deals recently?

Again, no comparable is going to be perfect. But in terms of building a case, I still can't see Halak getting much more than $2M. He can ask for whatever he wants. He won't get it, though. Unless our management is asleep at the switch.
True, its hard to find a completely accurate comparison. Though no doubt Mr. Walsh will try!

How about Pascal Leclair? Leclair, at the age of 25 (2007-08), resigned with the Columbus Bluejackets for three years, with a cap hit of $3.8 million. He too, was a restricted free agent at the time. To compare Halak and Leclair at the same point in their careers:

Games played:

Leclair: 113
Halak: 86 (and counting)

Career Save Percentage

Leclair: .910
Halak: .917

Save Percentage in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: .919
Halak: .923

Career Goals Against Average

Leclair: 2.99
Halak: 2.72

Goals Against Average in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: 2.25
Halak: 2.56

Shutouts in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: 9
Halak: 3

Now it’s really only in that last category that Leclair blows away Halak. For every other category Halak is right there with the $3.8 million Leclair…

Now I’m not saying that he will get $3.8 million… but he’s got a pretty good statistical argument given some comparables out there…

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02-25-2010, 05:02 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by JohnnyReb View Post
True, its hard to find a completely accurate comparison. Though no doubt Mr. Walsh will try!

How about Pascal Leclair? Leclair, at the age of 25 (2007-08), resigned with the Columbus Bluejackets for three years, with a cap hit of $3.8 million. He too, was a restricted free agent at the time. To compare Halak and Leclair at the same point in their careers:

Games played:

Leclair: 113
Halak: 86 (and counting)

Career Save Percentage

Leclair: .910
Halak: .917

Save Percentage in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: .919
Halak: .923

Career Goals Against Average

Leclair: 2.99
Halak: 2.72

Goals Against Average in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: 2.25
Halak: 2.56

Shutouts in RFA Contract Year

Leclair: 9
Halak: 3

Now it’s really only in that last category that Leclair blows away Halak. For every other category Halak is right there with the $3.8 million Leclair…

Now I’m not saying that he will get $3.8 million… but he’s got a pretty good statistical argument given some comparables out there…
Market was inflated that year look at all the salarys that the players got that year. Also Leclaire was playing in a bad non-playoff Columbus team so his perfomance were more spectacular. Also they always are lacking stellars defensemans and his shutout numbers were very good and some people were overating him if I recall well.

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02-25-2010, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyWarrior View Post
Market was inflated that year look at all the salarys that the players got that year. Also Leclaire was playing in a bad non-playoff Columbus team so his perfomance were more spectacular. Also they always are lacking stellars defensemans and his shutout numbers were very good and some people were overating him if I recall well.
Hasn't halak played this year behind a less than stellar defense (especially when Markov was out), and a team that gives up a ridiculous amount of shots/game?

not that these factors would be much of a factor at the negotiation table imo... but in fairness, it's not like Halak has been playing behind a much better team than the one Leclaire was backstopping.


as for the comparison, nice work johnnyreb

that looks like the closest comparable i've seen thus far... no doubt walsh will show up to the table with that as his starting point, versus the team with something more in Quick's territory...
hopefully they can meet somewhere in the middle and both sides can walk away happy.

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02-25-2010, 05:19 PM
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This is just crazy.
Well thank you mister I define reality because I say so.

Nashville, year in and year out, are at the cap floor, they always overpay some for young players so they can stay at the cap floor. Each summer, they try to fill it in to close to 40-44 mil. It's not crazy, its called looking up the facts.

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02-25-2010, 05:37 PM
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Still what your saying is confusing. So you say Price wasn't great, but he was the reason why the Dogs won the cup. I saw the games, and I thought Price was great and he was one of the biggest reasons why the Dogs won the cup despite being underdogs in every series.
Pretty sure he just said that they obviously wouldn't have won without Price, as Halak was allowed to go gain some international experience in the World Championships (always a good decision when looking to develop your prospects). He say Price was A reason, not THE reason. You agreed with that, btw, by bringing up the Chipchura line (which I agree with).

I don't know how you can paint that team as "the underdogs in every series" either. I mean, you're the guy who supposedly follows this team as much as anyone. You should know they were only a few points behind Rochester (and Chicago, for that matter) in the season standings, and had some pretty epic offensive explosions against them in the regular season (6-0 win, 8-4 win, for example). Manitoba I'll give you, but against each other during the season, they played a bunch of close games (many of which went to OT/SO), and even traded shutouts of each other during another stretch. The Bulldogs team that did that (with Halak, mind you, not Price) probably wasn't feeling like a true underdog at all heading into that series.

That leaves Chicago (yawn, with Halak between the pipes during the regular season, they ran a 3-0-1 record against them, in case you've forgotten that already) and finally Hersey. THAT was the impressive series, as they beat the best team in the regular season to seal the deal. One series as a true "underdog". That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyWarrior View Post
Market was inflated that year look at all the salarys that the players got that year. Also Leclaire was playing in a bad non-playoff Columbus team so his perfomance were more spectacular. Also they always are lacking stellars defensemans and his shutout numbers were very good and some people were overating him if I recall well.
Also it was an environment where the cap was going up still (and not projected to potentially fall, as is known/expected by most right now). That makes a difference in at least the number in the hundred thousand place value that seems to be the bickering point here, if not $1 million dollars or more.

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02-25-2010, 07:13 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
We're talking about the Calder Cup, and the games he played in Hamilton, he was awful.

I'm not a Price hater, I want our team to win, and right now Jaro is the better goalie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
Like I said, I was there. He wasn't great, but he wasnt terrible. That team was the best dogs team I've ever seen. Halak would have won the cup with them too. He was named MVP because without him we wouldn't have won (Since Halak was gone, and Yann Danis was awful)

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02-25-2010, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
We're talking about the Calder Cup, and the games he played in Hamilton, he was awful.

I'm not a Price hater, I want our team to win, and right now Jaro is the better goalie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
Like I said, I was there. He wasn't great, but he wasnt terrible. That team was the best dogs team I've ever seen. Halak would have won the cup with them too. He was named MVP because without him we wouldn't have won (Since Halak was gone, and Yann Danis was awful)
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
Good job Pernell Karl, DogsFan is perhaps Drunk ?

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02-25-2010, 08:07 PM
  #100
RE-HABS
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: CANADA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsFan View Post
Sorry, but that Calder Cup was not won on Carey Prices shoulders, Halak was the goalie for that team, and could have taken us the whole way, but Gainey sent him to the world championships. Carey looked Shakey even at the AHL level, and when he was in Hamilton the next season, he looked like ****. Don't question it because I was there for every home game and a few road games too.
Why was he the Calder Cup MVP???

He looked shakey at the AHL level?

Come on, his stats in that run were great:

22 games, 15 wins and 6 losses, 2 shutouts, a .936 save percentage and a 2.06 goals against.

If you were there you obviously were watching the games with a bag on your head and no holes cut out to see the game.

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