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Weber and Suter - Untouchable?

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Old
02-25-2010, 02:41 PM
  #26
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thank you

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02-25-2010, 04:21 PM
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The only example I can think of is the Ray Bourque trade.

Bourque and Andreychuk for Rolston, Martin Greinier, Sammy Pahlsson and a 1st.

But Bourque and Andreychuk were at the ends of their career and this was pre-lockout. Weber and Suter would be in their career primes, both are only 25 right now which is insane.

Weber and Suter IF traded would and should get more than the Bourque trade.

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02-25-2010, 04:42 PM
  #28
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The Lindros trade is a different example of a team giving up too much for one player. Forsberg, Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne and a 1st which was used to select Thibault, who was later dealt to pick up Patrick Roy. Ricci, Forsberg and Roy were big pieces of the Cup winning teams in Colorado.

There are lots of interesting trades that were made over the years. The Nordiques/Avalanche at one time had Sakic, Forsberg, Sundin and Nolan on their team or in the pipeline. They traded Sundin to pick up Wendel Clark, Sylvain Lefebvre, Landon Wilson and a 1st which was Jeff Kealty. Nolan was traded even up for Sandis Ozonlish which became a big part of the the early Cup years for Colorado.

Could you imagine what Colorado would have or could have looked like if they had kept Sundin alongside of Forsberg and Sakic? It turned out fine for them as they won a few Cups and maybe the team chemistry wouldn't have been there but geez, Sundin would've been the third best center on that team.

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02-25-2010, 05:51 PM
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I haven't been able to see how Nashville can afford both Weber and Suter and still be able to put a great team around them. I don't like the Rinne deal quite as much as some others do, the 4+ million number is starting to look steep unless he is great. But, goalie is huge, so hopefully he will be great. I am nervous for if he is great what happens in two years.

But, probably Poile can work it so he can keep both guys for a while. If not, we'll get a lot of picks for Weber. I don't expect Weber to give us too big of a discount. Why should he? He wants to win, so I think that will a big criteria, and some big money teams with some chances to win will offer him more than we can. But maybe he will give us a deal we can afford (still big) for say four years, figuring if we don't put the pieces together by then he will still be able to walk in the future. And we certainly have some good young pieces. It'd be great if Suter and Weber decide they can get the wins here and work with the team to get solid contracts that still fit for Nashville. An awful lot of money for those guys in bigger hockey markets though. A lot. I fear they may have to leave too much on the table to stay.

Suter's the guy I want to keep, but we may have a couple guys on the way up who could come closer to filling his role than anybody could fill for Weber. But still, I think Suter is very important and maybe the most important.

Go Poile... LOL

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02-25-2010, 06:07 PM
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For me, I know keeping Weber and Suter is unfesable so I realize that Weber would need ot go to keep Suter. But I'm waiting for a prospect to show me something

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02-25-2010, 07:36 PM
  #31
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The Avs also got around 15 million dollars in cold hard cash.

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02-25-2010, 08:19 PM
  #32
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I can think of another trade where the pieces were better than the better player. It was baseball sadly for this topic.

Nomar Garciaparra for Orlando Cabrerra and Doug Mientkiewicz. Boston's defense needed a lot of help and they got two gold glove players for what was assumed was the better star player. BUT Nomar was injury prone which made Boston the winner in the deal.

The pupu platter for star usually never works out. This version of the Pred could because they need to improve their PK. That's why I was advising a Hamhuis for Begin and Ference trade with Boston. (Now it sounds like Nashville could get more.)

As I said before in my analysis of Poile. He wants to lock up the top 3 forwards, top 2 defensemen, and top 1 goalie with cheap young drafted players. It makes it easier to fill out the rest of the roster. As of right now, you can say that Nashville has:

-Wilson-Hornqvist

For the forward spots. If Nashville were to make a move for Poni to fill out the rest of the line then the bottom 9 can be cheaper.

Weber-Suter

Are the top 2 defensemen. These young players will become expendable when they become expensive. Then you would hope that young prospects come up to fill those expensive spots.

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02-25-2010, 08:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I do know that playing in a state with no state income tax is a plus for players. However I seem to remember that there are issues with players paying taxes in the states they play away games in and in canada as well, so it may not affect their entire salary.

Im sure its complicated and I'd hate to have to be the accountant figuring it all out...
I'll add that the cost of living in Tennessee is way below Canada and most of the Northen US. 1.5 million a year here is like 2 to 3 million in some places. Utilities, Rent, Gas, lLnd, taxes, and the general cost of everything is cheaper here. I'm shocked at the prices of things in some places I visit.


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02-25-2010, 08:54 PM
  #34
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(this is assuming my information is correct)

As far as federal income tax goes, in Canada it would be 29% of taxable income over roughly $126,000. If you're talking about a six million dollar contract it would be taxed 35% in the states. The Canadian dollar is also stronger than the US dollar. Of course, you then get into income tax by province. On $6,000,000 it goes from nearly 39% in Alberta to nearly 48% in Quebec.

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02-25-2010, 11:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
I can think of another trade where the pieces were better than the better player. It was baseball sadly for this topic.

Nomar Garciaparra for Orlando Cabrerra and Doug Mientkiewicz. Boston's defense needed a lot of help and they got two gold glove players for what was assumed was the better star player. BUT Nomar was injury prone which made Boston the winner in the deal.

The pupu platter for star usually never works out. This version of the Pred could because they need to improve their PK. That's why I was advising a Hamhuis for Begin and Ference trade with Boston. (Now it sounds like Nashville could get more.)

As I said before in my analysis of Poile. He wants to lock up the top 3 forwards, top 2 defensemen, and top 1 goalie with cheap young drafted players. It makes it easier to fill out the rest of the roster. As of right now, you can say that Nashville has:

-Wilson-Hornqvist

For the forward spots. If Nashville were to make a move for Poni to fill out the rest of the line then the bottom 9 can be cheaper.

Weber-Suter

Are the top 2 defensemen. These young players will become expendable when they become expensive. Then you would hope that young prospects come up to fill those expensive spots.
The young prospects we have look to be solid players in the future, or so we hope, but I think we keep Suter and Weber and fill out the rest of the D with cheaper options for the 3-6 slots. Ultimately, if Ellis, Roussel, Josi and Blum pan out, that's not a bad 3-6. Blum will be here sooner than later but Ellis, Roussel and Josi won't for another 2-3 years minimum so I think we may see a lot of turnover for the bottom four as opposed to trying to fill out the roster with Suter or Weber being traded.

Honestly I have no idea Poile will do long term but I will have a hard time re-upping as a season ticket holder if Suter and/or Weber get traded or lost via free agency. I know it's about the logo on the front of the jersey we're all supposed to care about but when you have elite players, you want to see them stay here as opposed to playing for someone else. That's just me thought and I won't worry about it until it happens and maybe it never comes to that.

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02-26-2010, 09:10 AM
  #36
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On average, NHL teams spend 60% of their cap on their top 6 players per Mertle. http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/10/8...pend-their-cap

Nashville averages 49-55% The other five percent they put into the core of the team SO that Nashville can have a deeper team. If more money is put into the top 6 that's less money for the rest of the team and the Preds can't afford it. If one of the prospects pops up and plays at a slightly lower level then Suter or Weber, Poile WILL make a move to save money and use that cash to build up the depth of the team.

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02-26-2010, 09:12 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The young prospects we have look to be solid players in the future, or so we hope, but I think we keep Suter and Weber and fill out the rest of the D with cheaper options for the 3-6 slots. Ultimately, if Ellis, Roussel, Josi and Blum pan out, that's not a bad 3-6. Blum will be here sooner than later but Ellis, Roussel and Josi won't for another 2-3 years minimum so I think we may see a lot of turnover for the bottom four as opposed to trying to fill out the roster with Suter or Weber being traded.

Honestly I have no idea Poile will do long term but I will have a hard time re-upping as a season ticket holder if Suter and/or Weber get traded or lost via free agency. I know it's about the logo on the front of the jersey we're all supposed to care about but when you have elite players, you want to see them stay here as opposed to playing for someone else. That's just me thought and I won't worry about it until it happens and maybe it never comes to that.
Our tendency to continue drafting defensemen, and I said this after the draft last summer, really worries me that Poile is planning for the day when we have to jettison Weber\Suter. From what I've been told by my "inside" person, Timonen's money demands were never something Nashville was willing to pay, and his exit had nothing to do with the Leipold fiasco--it was going to happen no matter what. My worst fear is when that day comes for Suter and\or Weber. At that point, we cease being a real franchise, and become nothing but a glorified farm team for the big market teams.

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02-26-2010, 09:14 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
On average, NHL teams spend 60% of their cap on their top 6 players per Mertle. http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/10/8...pend-their-cap

Nashville averages 49-55% The other five percent they put into the core of the team SO that Nashville can have a deeper team. If more money is put into the top 6 that's less money for the rest of the team and the Preds can't afford it. If one of the prospects pops up and plays at a slightly lower level then Suter or Weber, Poile WILL make a move to save money and use that cash to build up the depth of the team.
We don't have a prospect like that in the system at this point, though. I think Weber and Suter are the horrendously rare "franchise" defensemen. How we somehow got two in the same draft is beyond me. The best bet we have are Blum, Josi and Ellis, but I think their upside is closer to a Hamhuis level-- great, but not elite.

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02-26-2010, 09:15 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
On average, NHL teams spend 60% of their cap on their top 6 players per Mertle. http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/10/8...pend-their-cap

Nashville averages 49-55% The other five percent they put into the core of the team SO that Nashville can have a deeper team. If more money is put into the top 6 that's less money for the rest of the team and the Preds can't afford it. If one of the prospects pops up and plays at a slightly lower level then Suter or Weber, Poile WILL make a move to save money and use that cash to build up the depth of the team.
Sully and Arnott both come off the books when Weber needs to be re-signed. Radulov would also be coming back here as his contract expires with the KHL. I don't think Poile lets either one walk. I think he'll fill the depth of the d corps with what he has in the system and ride the Weber/Suter wave as long as he can. I also think Weber won't try to break the bank of the team. He could make more money on the open market but some guys aren't wired like that. If he's comfortable and likes it here, what good is a big money contract in a city or team he hates playing for? He didn't sign the current deal he did thinking he was going to bolt after it.

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02-26-2010, 09:19 AM
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Our tendency to continue drafting defensemen, and I said this after the draft last summer, really worries me that Poile is planning for the day when we have to jettison Weber\Suter. From what I've been told by my "inside" person, Timonen's money demands were never something Nashville was willing to pay, and his exit had nothing to do with the Leipold fiasco--it was going to happen no matter what. My worst fear is when that day comes for Suter and\or Weber. At that point, we cease being a real franchise, and become nothing but a glorified farm team for the big market teams.
As much as I liked Timonen and thought he was a great defensemen, he's not Suter or Weber. He is great whereas as these two are elite and they are showing that on the world stage right now. The reason Poile didn't give Kimmo that sort of money is he's not worth over $6 million a season. Poile knows what he has in Weber and Suter. Hopefully by the time their contracts are up, ticket sales for this franchise will be on the way up and both end up staying. Also, I hope some playoff success happens in the next three years which should translate to better ticket sales as well.

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02-26-2010, 09:24 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Sully and Arnott both come off the books when Weber needs to be re-signed. Radulov would also be coming back here as his contract expires with the KHL. I don't think Poile lets either one walk. I think he'll fill the depth of the d corps with what he has in the system and ride the Weber/Suter wave as long as he can. I also think Weber won't try to break the bank of the team. He could make more money on the open market but some guys aren't wired like that. If he's comfortable and likes it here, what good is a big money contract in a city or team he hates playing for? He didn't sign the current deal he did thinking he was going to bolt after it.
It also depends on what you project Weber and Suter to get.

Suter's money demands will likely never stack up to Weber's-- Weber has a more easily quantifiable skillset. That said, I think teams have started to "wise up" in their contracts. The trend lately has moved away from the deals that guys like Pronger, Niedermayer and Chara, and more toward a lower cap hit over longer term-- see Keith, Seabrook, etc.

As Arnott, Sullivan, Dumont come off the books, 6 million per year for Weber and 5 for Suter becomes a little more palatable.

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02-26-2010, 09:32 AM
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I think that for Weber / Suter to stay, Poile is going to have to sign 10 year long term deals for each. I think that will play a major factor.
They are both getting big time exposure in the Olympics that will just ratchet up their value. I think GM's across the league are probably not greatly surprised, but I do think seeing them perform in this pressure packed situation makes their value higher----because they are performing under pressure that is not Nashville. So, they are showing another aspect of their skill--- under intense pressure.

I think that Weber signed the deal he did..........to get the most $ when the deal expired. I don't see it as any indication of anything. If he doesn't like Poile's deal, I think he'll either be here for one year...........or someone will offer him crazy $$$. It's happened before...

Do I think they both like Nashville? Yeah, but this will be possibly the most important $$ contract of their professional career. I think that's what they will be focused on.

I don't know if Poile would do this.........or if he can do this when the time comes.

This is a scary financial time for the team... the playoffs are critical for various reasons--- and the players know it. Hamhuis said something about it in the article in the fishwrap today.
So the players know the playoffs are critical......hopefully they will take this pressure and run with it--- and not grip the sticks too tight.

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02-26-2010, 09:35 AM
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It also depends on what you project Weber and Suter to get.

Suter's money demands will likely never stack up to Weber's-- Weber has a more easily quantifiable skillset. That said, I think teams have started to "wise up" in their contracts. The trend lately has moved away from the deals that guys like Pronger, Niedermayer and Chara, and more toward a lower cap hit over longer term-- see Keith, Seabrook, etc.

As Arnott, Sullivan, Dumont come off the books, 6 million per year for Weber and 5 for Suter becomes a little more palatable.

I don't think that Suter will sign for less $$ than Weber.........I think they will only take 6 million each...... if it is for 10 years......And even then, I'm not sure that someone else wouldn't offer them more.

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02-26-2010, 09:36 AM
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I think that for Weber / Suter to stay, Poile is going to have to sign 10 year long term deals for each. I think that will play a major factor.
They are both getting big time exposure in the Olympics that will just ratchet up their value. I think GM's across the league are probably not greatly surprised, but I do think seeing them perform in this pressure packed situation makes their value higher----because they are performing under pressure that is not Nashville. So, they are showing another aspect of their skill--- under intense pressure.

I think that Weber signed the deal he did..........to get the most $ when the deal expired. I don't see it as any indication of anything. If he doesn't like Poile's deal, I think he'll either be here for one year...........or someone will offer him crazy $$$. It's happened before...

Do I think they both like Nashville? Yeah, but this will be possibly the most important $$ contract of their professional career. I think that's what they will be focused on.

I don't know if Poile would do this.........or if he can do this when the time comes.

This is a scary financial time for the team... the playoffs are critical for various reasons--- and the players know it. Hamhuis said something about it in the article in the fishwrap today.
So the players know the playoffs are critical......hopefully they will take this pressure and run with it--- and not grip the sticks too tight.
If Weber did indeed do that he would've signed a 4 year deal and been unrestricted at the end of it. He's not going anywhere.

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02-26-2010, 09:54 AM
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If I was Poile, I would have no problem offering them both 60 million over 10 years.

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02-26-2010, 10:15 AM
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I don't think that Suter will sign for less $$ than Weber.........I think they will only take 6 million each...... if it is for 10 years......And even then, I'm not sure that someone else wouldn't offer them more.
Like I said, it's easy for us to sit around and call Suter the more solid defenseman. He likely is, but solid is a hard property to put a number on. There's a reason that everyone is salivating\offering Kings' ransoms for Weber over on the trade board, while people are writing Suter off as being a "a top 20 defenseman, but nowhere near top 10." WE know it's not true, but again, what stats does he have to back it up There's a reason that people are doing features on Weber at the Olympics, why he's getting named to all-star games. Big hits, lots of goals, A on the jersey = $$$. Quietly making good breakout passes and playing a shutdown role = not as easy to make that case. There's a million dollars a year difference now, and I think there will continue to be about that much.

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02-26-2010, 10:25 AM
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If Weber did indeed do that he would've signed a 4 year deal and been unrestricted at the end of it. He's not going anywhere.
I just think there is more to it than that. The year he signed his extension (in June 2008) was the year he was injured twice and was out for periods of time. I don't think it was one of his best years.
That season 2007/2008 he only played in 53 games, had 6 goals and 14 assists.
The next season he played in 84, 23 goals , 30 assists.

I just think there were other factors that came into play at that time. ( other than I'm not going anywhere).
Whether Poile did not want to commmit to 4 years and have him being a UFA at the end.......which makes sense.........if Poile is thinking , I want to have a chance to re-sign Weber for a long period, so let's not commit to more than this 3 years.

I guess I'm saying I don't see the contract Weber is playing under now as being any indication from him...........I think this contract was Poile playing a smart GM...
That's all..

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02-26-2010, 10:33 AM
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I just think there is more to it than that. The year he signed his extension (in June 2008) was the year he was injured twice and was out for periods of time. I don't think it was one of his best years.
That season 2007/2008 he only played in 53 games, had 6 goals and 14 assists.
The next season he played in 84, 23 goals , 30 assists.

I just think there were other factors that came into play at that time. ( other than I'm not going anywhere).
Whether Poile did not want to commmit to 4 years and have him being a UFA at the end.......which makes sense.........if Poile is thinking , I want to have a chance to re-sign Weber for a long period, so let's not commit to more than this 3 years.

I guess I'm saying I don't see the contract Weber is playing under now as being any indication from him...........I think this contract was Poile playing a smart GM...
That's all..
It had nothing to do with Poile, it was Weber who ok'd the deal for 3 years and staying restricted at the end of the deal.

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02-26-2010, 10:35 AM
  #49
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Like I said, it's easy for us to sit around and call Suter the more solid defenseman. He likely is, but solid is a hard property to put a number on. There's a reason that everyone is salivating\offering Kings' ransoms for Weber over on the trade board, while people are writing Suter off as being a "a top 20 defenseman, but nowhere near top 10." WE know it's not true, but again, what stats does he have to back it up There's a reason that people are doing features on Weber at the Olympics, why he's getting named to all-star games. Big hits, lots of goals, A on the jersey = $$$. Quietly making good breakout passes and playing a shutdown role = not as easy to make that case. There's a million dollars a year difference now, and I think there will continue to be about that much.
I don't know what media reports you're comparing on Suter and Weber. And the Olympics are in his home province. Suter has had a lot of articles on him. I don't think media reports are any indication.

And the all star game.........again......... a political game..Nashville Preds get 2 people.... Does Weber deserve it, sure!!! He played better than Suter----last year.

people offering a kings ransom on trade boards.........not GM's.....sorry, just fans.

Sure, Weber has more goals than Suter in the Olympics.........but I don't think he's playing any better than Suter... I think Suter is playing just as well... Look at the minutes Suter is getting

I just disagree that Weber is $1 million / year better than Suter.

I think Suter , this year, is playing better than Weber...
Nope, no stats to offer........just my observations.

Which are just as easily discounted as observations from a fan...

We just disagree........

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02-26-2010, 10:35 AM
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It had nothing to do with Poile, it was Weber who ok'd the deal for 3 years and staying restricted at the end of the deal.
Maybe Poile only offered 3 years. It takes 2 people in a deal. Weber had a bad year that year.


Last edited by predfan98: 02-26-2010 at 10:36 AM. Reason: adding.
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