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Do you think there would be any takers for Spacek?

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Old
02-27-2010, 09:36 AM
  #51
25th
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
That doesn't make him unmovable by any means.

Just as with every trade there needs to be a suitor who requires a certain type of player and a team willing to offer it, it's quite simple. A vet like Spacek can be of use to someone that requires a steady, experienced D-man for the short term. He will fetch a decent draft pick at the deadline this year or the next. Who says people have to be lining up for a guy? If one team is interested in him, does that mean PG won't trade him unless people line up for him? Maybe you'd like to re-think the wods you use.

And during his best years, he wasn't even worth 3.8 million? Yeah okay, an other ignoramus comment. Look at the D's around the league and how much they make compared to their point output and you will see how, really, you need to get a clue as well.

Gomez and other bad contracts got traded over the years, Spacek's contract is not even bad. At 4+ he would have been overpaid but this is a sweet spot for him especially if you consider the fact that he got an UFA premium, so get over it already, he does NOT have negative value.

In conclusion to answer the op's question: yes, there will be takers for Spacek, don't you worry.
He big boy, the short term is the WHOLE problem with your affirmation. IF Spacek was UFA at the end of this year, you'd be right. But the extra two years at almost 4 mil of cap hit for the player we have seen this year makes him untradable. Get real!

Then again, if he played on his confortable left side, we MIGHT not have had this conversation.

Now i'll let you be with the big boys and i'll go back to my childish stuff.

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Old
02-27-2010, 10:41 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
At this point, Subban is a top-4.

So you have Markov, Hamrlik, Subban and Gorges/O'Byrne as top-4.
I am OK with this.

My evaluation is based on the perception that we are ready to let Subban play in NHL and learn as a top-4.

For bottom-2 we have Gill, Carle, Weber, Bergeron, UFA.

As UFA: Excelby, Jurcina, Krajicek, Covalaiacove, Van Ryn, Schubert, Corvo, Tallinder, Seidenberg, Leopold, Boyton...+++
I can live with this...
At this point, Subban is a rookie with only two NHL games under his belt. He played well in those two games, but IMO, he's risky in his own zone. He had too much energy. I know, weird to say...but it's the truth. I'd say he's close from a NHLer though. He only needs a bit of tweeking. I'd like to see him for another 10 games...we'd have a better idea of where he is in his development.

But again, Subban isn't a top 4 defenseman YET.

As for Spacek, people don't like him because of his salary. Same thing for Hamrlik and Gomez. Yes they are all overpaid, but at least, they are helping the team. We have a GM to take care of those contracts. People should stop bashing players because of their salary and let the team take care of things.

Also, I don't think we are in a huge problem with the cap. One of our two goaltenders will be traded before the next season and Price will not receive a huge contract this summer. The numbers aren't there. He'll sign for a year at a low cap hit. If we keep Halak, I don't think he'll sign long term at a huge cap hit either. Our RFAs don't have the numbers to get big raises...really, it's not that bad.

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02-27-2010, 11:35 AM
  #53
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I don't like Spacek because he's only a stick. No body. Mix that with Georges, Markov, Gill, you know what I mean, we need the physical presence we had with Komisarek. At least we have O'Byrne...

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02-27-2010, 11:42 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
I don't like Spacek because he's only a stick. No body. Mix that with Georges, Markov, Gill, you know what I mean, we need the physical presence we had with Komisarek. At least we have O'Byrne...
I don't think any of us like what he brings to the team, but he can damn well be useful elsewhere.

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02-27-2010, 12:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
I don't think any of us like what he brings to the team, but he can damn well be useful elsewhere.
That's true. He's not useful here because we have already too many non-physical average d-man that only play the stick, and all the other reasons mentioned, of course. But on a team missing a d-man that can make a pass and full of physical d-man, it "could" be possible to see someone gamble on him, thinking that he's been playing on his wrong side and also for the Montreal Canadiens...

Well thanks for the hope. I hope we trade him, because I'd much rather see a Bulldog developing with its icetime than the flying stick with the invisible man.

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02-27-2010, 04:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
At this point, Subban is a top-4.
No. That is complete and utter wishful thinking. He cannot eat top-4 minutes reliably, period. He'll get there, but he needs to cut his teeth on soft minutes first. Let alone that Spacek is playing first-pairing minutes, not second pairing minutes. Pit Subban against Ovechkin and he'll get eaten alive.

Let's not throw our best prospect to the wolves and saddle him with ridiculously excessive expectations. The job of NHL D-man is hard.

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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
As UFA: Excelby, Jurcina, Krajicek, Covalaiacove, Van Ryn, Schubert, Corvo, Tallinder, Seidenberg, Leopold, Boyton...+++
Spacek is better than all of them, often vastly better. That's a list of bottom-pairing and AHL defensemen.

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02-27-2010, 04:33 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
I don't like Spacek because he's only a stick. No body. Mix that with Georges, Markov, Gill, you know what I mean, we need the physical presence we had with Komisarek. At least we have O'Byrne...
Positional defensemen who play smartly (with the stick, as you put it) are generally much better at actual defense than hitting defensemen who get out of position to make hits, such as Komisarek or O'Byrne. The other very important skill that a defenseman needs to be effective is passing skill.

I have no trouble with loading the roster with puck-moving defensemen, so long as the coach implements a system that makes some usage of these skills.

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02-27-2010, 04:50 PM
  #58
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Spacek is better than all of them, often vastly better. That's a list of bottom-pairing and AHL defensemen.
Right for many of them, but Seidenberg is a top-4 puck-moving shot-blocking physical dmen.

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02-27-2010, 05:18 PM
  #59
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No. Signing him as a UFA showed a lack of foresight. Trading for him now would be downright stupid.

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02-27-2010, 05:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
No. That is complete and utter wishful thinking. He cannot eat top-4 minutes reliably, period. He'll get there, but he needs to cut his teeth on soft minutes first. Let alone that Spacek is playing first-pairing minutes, not second pairing minutes. Pit Subban against Ovechkin and he'll get eaten alive.

Let's not throw our best prospect to the wolves and saddle him with ridiculously excessive expectations. The job of NHL D-man is hard.



Spacek is better than all of them, often vastly better. That's a list of bottom-pairing and AHL defensemen.

Dude, stop it with your absolutisms. Did you watch the games against Philly???? Subban can easily play top 4 minutes. I've seen quite my share of young players come-up and Subban is something else. You have no clue how Subban would react against Ovy, PERIOD. The fact that him and Gorges were on the ice for 40 minutes in the two games against Philly, 40 out of 120 minutes, and all 9 Philly goals were scored in the 80 minutes the pairing WEREN't on the ice is telling of his capacity to play solid defense. Not only that, he was dominating on the ice, making the right decisions more often than not.

Who the **** are you to say how he will react with absolute certainty, when he has shown the total opposite of what you think.

Some players dominate right off the bat, others don't. For once we have one, start appreciating instead of being an alarmist.

And top 4 minutes at his present age is not excessive expectations for a player of his caliber. Top pairing would be, but he was already up to the task at top 4 minutes.

Before those two games, I never would've expected this of him. But now that he has shown capable of doing it, I don't see why not continue in the same vein. You're out of your friggin mind if you think you know exactly how he will react against top players.

It's based on NOTHING. Except for just a lot of hot air. My assesment is based on the two games I've seen of him with the Habs, and the several games I've seen with him in Ham. And IMO, he could very well fill in a top 4 role in Montreal right now.

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02-27-2010, 06:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Dude, stop it with your absolutisms. Did you watch the games against Philly???? Subban can easily play top 4 minutes.
No, he can't. He can do fine playing bottom-pairing NHL minutes, I have no doubt, and after a year of practice he might graduate to second-pairing D-man.

Asking him to play the first-pairing minutes Spacek eats is asking too much. The kid will flounder out there if you ask him to check NHL stars. He's made fantastic progress in the AHL, he's absolutely a NHLer now, sure, but if you ask him to do the toughest job in hockey, that of first-pairing D-man, you're asking too much.

I'm more concerned about whether he can do the job effectively as opposed to looking good doing it. A player like Subban will always be fun to watch, but that doesn't always translate into effectiveness. Whereas Spacek is a player who may not look great on every play, but you look at the results over some time and he does very well.

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Some players dominate right off the bat, others don't. For once we have one, start appreciating instead of being an alarmist.
There's a massive, massive difference between dominating third-pairing minutes and dominating second- and first- pairing minutes. I think the difficulty of the minutes you want to give him is gravely underestimated here. I'm glad he can do exceedingly well in a bottom-pairing role, but I'd still ease him into tougher work because the difficulty curve for D-men is so steep.

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And top 4 minutes at his present age is not excessive expectations for a player of his caliber. Top pairing would be, but he was already up to the task at top 4 minutes.
We're asking him to fill in for Spacek, not fill in for some putative low-end #4 D-man. Spacek is the team's #2 D-man, until such time as Markov can be himself again. Even so, Hamrlik-Spacek may well continue to be the coach's top 5-on-5 option given the amount of heavy lifting they've already done all year.

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Before those two games, I never would've expected this of him. But now that he has shown capable of doing it, I don't see why not continue in the same vein.
And this is problem #2. It's only been two games. One of which was a blowout that was 50% garbage time. That's the sum total of his NHL experience. And you already want to give him a crucial, difficult job on a NHL team based on only two games of observation (and several games in Hamilton, sure). Don't you think that's a bit slim in terms of information to base such a decision on?

We've never heard of a rookie that does really well when he first joins the team then slow downs over the next few games, right? At least let him prove himself at the NHL level for 10-15 games before you want to graduate him. Let him prove he can play #5 minutes on a consistent basis (ie. more than two games) before asking him to do more.

Or do we want to get him to the point Latendresse and Price were, unfairly bashed because they were "promoted before they earned it"?

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
And IMO, he could very well fill in a top 4 role in Montreal right now.
IMO, that's HFBoards wishful thinking. We do tend to overvalue young players.


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02-27-2010, 06:40 PM
  #62
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No, he can't. He can do fine playing bottom-pairing NHL minutes, I have no doubt, and after a year of practice he might graduate to second-pairing D-man.

Asking him to play the first-pairing minutes Spacek eats is asking too much. The kid will flounder out there if you ask him to check NHL stars. He's made fantastic progress in the AHL, he's absolutely a NHLer now, sure, but if you ask him to do the toughest job in hockey, that of first-pairing D-man, you're asking too much.

Blah blah blah... do you realize you switched top 4 minutes with 1st pairing minutes???? Instead of twisting, and using sleight of hand, listen. And stop it with the absolutisms. Are you omniscient??? If not, **** with those "'no he can't, period". Top 4 minutes is second pairing Dman. With Hammer, Markov, OB and Gorges, Subban could easily be fit to play 20 minutes like he did in the two games. THAT'S top 4 minutes. He has already shown more than capable, surpassed expectations. The logical thing is to stay the course, continue trying him in that position and let him thrive.

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I'm more concerned about whether he can do the job effectively as opposed to looking good doing it. A player like Subban will always be fun to watch, but that doesn't always translate into effectiveness. Whereas Spacek is a player who may not look great on every play, but you look at the results over some time and he does very well.
HE WAS EFFECTIVE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. More so than Spaced-out. Did you WATCH the games against Philly?? I'm not talking about his rushes, I'm talking of his play on defense, which is not something as glaring as the rushes, but someone with a keen eye for defensive play will tell you Subban is ahead of most Ds on the team when it comes to decision making in his own zone.



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There's a massive, massive difference between dominating third-pairing minutes and dominating second- and first- pairing minutes.
Damn, you're really out of a walk bro. HE PLAYED FIRST AND SECOND PAIRING in those two games against Philly, NOT THIRD pairing. Stop twisting reality to fit your propencity for conservatism.


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think the difficulty of the minutes you want to give him is gravely underestimated here. I'm glad he can do exceedingly well in a bottom-pairing role, but I'd still ease him into tougher work because the difficulty curve for D-men is so steep.
Again, not 3rd pairing, he played 1st and 2nd pairing, and didn't let in ONE single goal on 40 minutes against a team that scored 9 goals in the other 80 minutes. Now I know for sure you didn't watch the games against Philly or didn't pay attention to who was on the ice against Subban and what he did in his own zone, because you keep repeating a falacy.



Quote:
We're asking him to fill in for Spacek, not fill in for some putative low-end #4 D-man. Spacek is the team's #2 D-man, until such time as Markov can be himself again. Even so, Hamrlik-Spacek may well continue to be the coach's top 5-on-5 option given the amount of heavy lifting they've already done all year.
WHAT???? Spacek is our 3rd Dman. Markov and Hammer are above him. Why do you think its Spacek who plays on the right side??? our 3 best Dmen are all lefties, you'll usually keep the best two out of the three on their natural side to compensate for the lack of fitting players on the other side, hence Spacek on the right side.

Markov will benefit from having Subban for many shifts (not all of them). Also, you keep repeating the tirade about Spacek, but I don't even want to get rid of him until the end of the season. But next season, you can bet Subban is gonna be top 4 on the team.



Quote:
And this is problem #2. It's only been two games. One of which was a blowout that was 50% garbage time. That's the sum total of his NHL experience. And you already want to give him a crucial, difficult job on a NHL team based on only two games of observation (and several games in Hamilton, sure). Don't you think that's a bit slim in terms of information to base such a decision on?
Yes, because he has the pedigree to do so. He has exceeded expectations EVERY single friggin step of the way. And at least, I base my own opinion on something. Not just my pessimistic view of something I (meaning you) don't seem to know. And its not slim as information, its a process, and that's why you have to keep him there, to see how far he can go. Stop playing mother goose. Jeeze. We should send you to Hamilton so you can change his diapers.

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We've never heard of a rookie that does really well when he first joins the team then slow downs over the next few games, right?
And we've never heard of young studs not slowing down either. that's the whole point you doof. You are SURE he can't do the job, what I'm saying is that you're opinion is based on nothing much but alarmist drivel (yet another proof with that last statement). You'll never know if he can or can't do it if you don't try him, and try him until he fails. Which IMO, he won't. That's why I think he is ready.

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At least let him prove himself at the NHL level for 10-15 games before you want to graduate him.
That's part of the process, but talent-wise, and playing-wise, he seems more ready than any young gun who has come on to the club over the last 20 years.

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Let him prove he can play #5 minutes on a consistent basis (ie. more than two games) before asking him to do more.
Oh yeah, playing him for 2-3 minutes less is gonna make a BIG difference. I'm talking #4 at 20 minutes. BUT ITS EXCESSIVE, we should make him play 3-4 less minutes. He has ALREADY exceeded #5 position in his play, if you're gonna trying him out, you won't have him regress to #5.....

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Or do we want to get him to the point Latendresse and Price were, unfairly bashed because they were "promoted before they earned it"?
Different animals, different cases, and not my opinion. Stop using HF idiocies as my own thoughts. You're only showing your lack of argumentation with such inanities.

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HFBoards wishful thinking.
HFboards alarmist conservatism. How is it wishful thinking when he has already been up to the task? You are wrong until he proves you right and hence, fail. You're twisting the causality here.

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Old
02-27-2010, 07:38 PM
  #63
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No. Signing him as a UFA showed a lack of foresight. Trading for him now would be downright stupid.
I notice your posts. They're pretty much good ones all the time. No one else will, because you make sense and arguing is better than agreeing. They don,t understand that players want to feel secure when signing with a team.

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02-27-2010, 07:56 PM
  #64
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Blah blah blah... do you realize you switched top 4 minutes with 1st pairing minutes???? Instead of twisting, and using sleight of hand, listen.
Whatever. We're talking of ditching Spacek here and going with a top-4 of Markov-Hamrlik-Gorges-Subban. Either Gorges has to pick up the slack for Subban to slide into a top-4 role (which gives the Habs two D-men asked to do more than they should) or you're trying to fit Subban in that #2 role currently filled out by Spacek.

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And stop it with the absolutisms. Are you omniscient???
I'm making assumptions, just as you are, except my assumptions about the capabilities of a rookie with 2 NHL games to his name are far more realistic than yours.

And even if you were to prove correct, my suggested course of action is way more prudent.

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Subban could easily be fit to play 20 minutes like he did in the two games. THAT'S top 4 minutes.
No, it's not. Actually, I think that's where your argument goes completely off the tracks, so let's stop here so I can explain why I think your argument that he's been proving he can handle top-four minutes is completely off the mark.

You're basing your assertion that he can play top-4 minutes based on the fact that he's played 20 minutes in those two games, and that that was top-4 minutes. Quite besides the fact that it was only two game, it's important to realize that 20 minutes against third and fourth lines is not "top 4 minutes". You don't figure out who were the top four defensemen by sorting the icetime chart by "TOI" and counting.

The important element here is not the quanitity of minutes Subban plays, it's the difficulty. There is a world of difference between playing 20 minutes against Alex Ovechkin and playing 20 minutes against third-line grinders.

Against the Flyers in game 1, Subban played most of his minutes paired with Gill as the third pairing; he was kept away from the Carter and Richards lines, Philly's top two lines, and used against the Giroux and Betts line. This was also the case for the beginning of game 2, where he was again paired with Gill and faced the Flyers' bottom 2 lines. Once the game became garbage time, it was time to experiment now that the hockey was meaningless, so Subban was separated from Gill and that was the only time he actually was mainly matched up against significant opposition (mostly the Richards line) in this case. It was the perfect time to get a first inkling of whether he could handle such tough opposition.

These are not first- and second-pairing minutes.

It doesn't matter how much time he spent on the ice, what matters is who he was matched up against. You really should know this, which makes your claims that I'm "basing my argument on something I don't seem to know" pretty ironic. Having played 20 minutes in all of two games games, of which maybe four periods were significant, against third-pairing opposition, does not make him a top-4 defenseman.

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WHAT???? Spacek is our 3rd Dman. Markov and Hammer are above him. Why do you think its Spacek who plays on the right side???
Spacek is playing the first pairing right now, which is Hamrlik-Spacek. Markov should nominally be the #1, but he's not completely back from his injury and he's handed #3 minutes at the moment, which means Spacek remains in the same role he's had since game 1 -- he's the #2 D-man.

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Markov will benefit from having Subban for many shifts (not all of them).
Markov, one of these days, should really be handed a partner he doesn't have to babysit so that we can, for once, see what he's really capable of. So far he's had to compensate for Komisarek and O'Byrne, the best D-man he's been with has probably been Josh Gorges...

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But next season, you can bet Subban is gonna be top 4 on the team.
I hope not. Much too early. That'll mean the Habs are really thin on D.

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You'll never know if he can or can't do it if you don't try him, and try him until he fails. Which IMO, he won't. That's why I think he is ready.
Well, let's phase him in then. Slowly. There's no reason to throw him to the wolves. That's just setting him up for failure. Again, the difficulty curves in defensemen is really steep. Subban would hardly be the first prospect we think to have progressed more than he has.

I'm perfectly convinced Subban will develop into a first-pairing defenseman. But it will take another year or two.

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02-28-2010, 01:25 AM
  #65
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Whatever. We're talking of ditching Spacek here and going with a top-4 of Markov-Hamrlik-Gorges-Subban. Either Gorges has to pick up the slack for Subban to slide into a top-4 role (which gives the Habs two D-men asked to do more than they should) or you're trying to fit Subban in that #2 role currently filled out by Spacek.



I'm making assumptions, just as you are, except my assumptions about the capabilities of a rookie with 2 NHL games to his name are far more realistic than yours.

And even if you were to prove correct, my suggested course of action is way more prudent.



No, it's not. Actually, I think that's where your argument goes completely off the tracks, so let's stop here so I can explain why I think your argument that he's been proving he can handle top-four minutes is completely off the mark.

You're basing your assertion that he can play top-4 minutes based on the fact that he's played 20 minutes in those two games, and that that was top-4 minutes. Quite besides the fact that it was only two game, it's important to realize that 20 minutes against third and fourth lines is not "top 4 minutes". You don't figure out who were the top four defensemen by sorting the icetime chart by "TOI" and counting.

The important element here is not the quanitity of minutes Subban plays, it's the difficulty. There is a world of difference between playing 20 minutes against Alex Ovechkin and playing 20 minutes against third-line grinders.

Against the Flyers in game 1, Subban played most of his minutes paired with Gill as the third pairing; he was kept away from the Carter and Richards lines, Philly's top two lines, and used against the Giroux and Betts line. This was also the case for the beginning of game 2, where he was again paired with Gill and faced the Flyers' bottom 2 lines. Once the game became garbage time, it was time to experiment now that the hockey was meaningless, so Subban was separated from Gill and that was the only time he actually was mainly matched up against significant opposition (mostly the Richards line) in this case. It was the perfect time to get a first inkling of whether he could handle such tough opposition.

These are not first- and second-pairing minutes.

It doesn't matter how much time he spent on the ice, what matters is who he was matched up against. You really should know this, which makes your claims that I'm "basing my argument on something I don't seem to know" pretty ironic. Having played 20 minutes in all of two games games, of which maybe four periods were significant, against third-pairing opposition, does not make him a top-4 defenseman.



Spacek is playing the first pairing right now, which is Hamrlik-Spacek. Markov should nominally be the #1, but he's not completely back from his injury and he's handed #3 minutes at the moment, which means Spacek remains in the same role he's had since game 1 -- he's the #2 D-man.



Markov, one of these days, should really be handed a partner he doesn't have to babysit so that we can, for once, see what he's really capable of. So far he's had to compensate for Komisarek and O'Byrne, the best D-man he's been with has probably been Josh Gorges...



I hope not. Much too early. That'll mean the Habs are really thin on D.



Well, let's phase him in then. Slowly. There's no reason to throw him to the wolves. That's just setting him up for failure. Again, the difficulty curves in defensemen is really steep. Subban would hardly be the first prospect we think to have progressed more than he has.

I'm perfectly convinced Subban will develop into a first-pairing defenseman. But it will take another year or two.


I'm gonna pass over everything you've said and ignore it totally as I stopped reading where its bolded. You've repeated a fallacy yet again, even though I've told you this is untrue. You also presume I don't know how to check the play-by-play log on the game summaries on NHL.com, where you can actually see that Subban played against Philly's best players as the two games progressed. The last game, it was 20 minutes against mostly (at least 2/3 or 3/4 of the game) Philly's best guns.

Hammer and Spacek were the first pairing and Subban and Gorges were the second for most of the game. I don't need the ice time to figure this out, to think you can presume to know how I think when you're not even capable of checking facts for yourself, or even acknowledge what everyone saw in that game, is just plain ridiculous.

Check your facts here :

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...0/PL020907.HTM

Subban played against all of Philly's top 6 forwards, mostly for the entire game the Habs lost 6-2, yet Subban wasn't there for any of the goals allowed. If you watched the game, you could see his poise on defense, the good decisions, the good first passes. He showed that all week-end long, and never dropped down even though he was quickly pitted against tougher opponents. He IS quite capable as of now to do it, the logical path to take is to see how far he can bring it.

For any other player coming up, I'd mostly agree to be prudent, but in my experience, this the one type of dude you don't need to be so prudent with.

So what have I had today on my plate because of you... twisted argument, being put HF mythos into my mouth, repeated fallacy. You've lost a lot of steam bro. Next time, if you want me to read your entire drivel and give a damn, try a different route than all those pityful tactics you used.

You also totally fail to realize that Subban is playing far better on the right side than Spacek, as it is the former's natural side. Markov wasn't there, but if he is, The better option would be to use Subban with either Markov or Hammer. The Subban/Hammer pairing we saw several times in the last gamem, was much less dysfunctional than when it was Spacek on that pairing.


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02-28-2010, 03:24 AM
  #66
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I'm gonna pass over everything you've said and ignore it totally as I stopped reading where its bolded. You've repeated a fallacy yet again, even though I've told you this is untrue.
What fallacy, that Subban hasn't played top-4 minutes?

I repeat it because it's true and you won't admit it.

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You also presume I don't know how to check the play-by-play log on the game summaries on NHL.com, where you can actually see that Subban played against Philly's best players as the two games progressed.
Please do so again. Actually, let me give you a nifty link to a site that takes that data and collates it and turns it into nice, easy-to-read shift charts on a game-by-game basis:

http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/

Please note how Subban spent most of the first game paired with Gill, and playing against the Betts and Giroux lines, behind the Hamrlik-Spacek and Gorges-O'Byrne pairings. Also note how he spent the first period of the second game in the same role (you can see it on the shift chart), before being moved when the contest became lost. He had one shift with Hamrlik and Gorges in the first, while O'Byrne was in the sin bin for fighting which left an opening at RD.

Looks like Martin used the garbage time to experiment with using Spacek and Hamrlik both on the left side, with O'Byrne and Subban on the right side. And near the end of the game Martin had reverted to Hamrlik-Spacek and Gill-Subban. Hard to tell whether it was because he felt the experiment hadn't worked to his liking, though.

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The last game, it was 20 minutes against mostly (at least 2/3 or 3/4 of the game) Philly's best guns.
...once the game was out of reach and the results meaningless. Perfect time to experiment and throw players into situations you normally wouldn't.

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So what have I had today on my plate because of you... twisted argument, being put HF mythos into my mouth, repeated fallacy. You've lost a lot of steam bro.
I don't see why I lost any steam. As far as I can tell, you're the guy overrating the level of development of a Habs prospect based on watching him for a grand total of two NHL games, games in which you were looking for him to be successful as confirmation bias.

The shift charts tell a different story than you do. You're the one losing steam here.

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Next time, if you want me to read your entire drivel and give a damn, try a different route than all those pityful tactics you used.
I'm really sorry if you can't stomach a fact-based argument and have to stick your fingers in your ears to pretend I'm spouting "drivel" (rich for you to call it that, by the way, after admitting you haven't even read it).

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You also totally fail to realize that Subban is playing far better on the right side than Spacek, as it is the former's natural side.
There's a crucial difference between saying that Subban is more comfortable on the right side than Spacek is (he is), and saying that he's more effective there (he's not).

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The Subban/Hammer pairing we saw several times in the last gamem, was much less dysfunctional than when it was Spacek on that pairing.
Nice to see, but I'm not about to let two periods of garbage time affect my opinion ahead of sixty games of effective work by Spacek.


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02-28-2010, 08:55 AM
  #67
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Our opinion differs from yours so we need to find something else to do. Tell us how you really feel.


If you think people are lining up at the door for a 3.8 million dollar 35 yr old Spacek you you're the one without a clue.

He was never a 3.8million defencemen even during his best years.
lest not forget that is an opinion, not a fact...

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02-28-2010, 09:19 AM
  #68
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MathMan you're usually astute and a calming presence to the boards, I agree that Subban's two-game stint was not nearly enough to annoint him the second-coming. That being said, there are, in general, three factors to being a hockey player, in order.

1. Physical
2. Skill
3. Mental

If the team (not fans) thinks that Subban has grown enough physically, has demonstrated use of the specific skills required for his role then they could take a chance and see how he responds mentally - decisions, determination, adaptability, on-ice IQ, etc.

Spacek, from all the games I've seen, does not have the adequate physicality to play in the role we require. He's old, out of shape and slow as molasses. He doesn't like getting hit and doesn't hit. He can still position himself well, make great passes and be generally but quietly effective as a defensive-dman.

We have too many non-physical D-Dmen though -and they're making too much money.

Subban is an elite prospect because he has shown the skills and has the physicality. He can absolutely earn his top-4 role this season or next with his mental response. We don't need to babysit every prospect in the AHL for 3 seasons, the NHL is a young-man's game.

What if the Kings had shoved Doughty in the minors?

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02-28-2010, 09:30 AM
  #69
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MathMan you're usually astute and a calming presence to the boards, I agree that Subban's two-game stint was not nearly enough to annoint him the second-coming. That being said, there are, in general, three factors to being a hockey player, in order.

1. Physical
2. Skill
3. Mental

If the team (not fans) thinks that Subban has grown enough physically, has demonstrated use of the specific skills required for his role then they could take a chance and see how he responds mentally - decisions, determination, adaptability, on-ice IQ, etc.

Spacek, from all the games I've seen, does not have the adequate physicality to play in the role we require. He's old, out of shape and slow as molasses. He doesn't like getting hit and doesn't hit. He can still position himself well, make great passes and be generally but quietly effective as a defensive-dman.

We have too many non-physical D-Dmen though -and they're making too much money.

Subban is an elite prospect because he has shown the skills and has the physicality. He can absolutely earn his top-4 role this season or next with his mental response. We don't need to babysit every prospect in the AHL for 3 seasons, the NHL is a young-man's game.

What if the Kings had shoved Doughty in the minors?

My thoughts exactly. You can't be overprotective with all your prospects. It's a case by case situation, and Subban's reactions so far warrants a longer stint with progressively accrued responsibilities. My impression is that he'll react just fine, that's why I'm pretty sure he's up to the task of being #4 on the team already. It's his place to win or to lose.

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02-28-2010, 09:50 AM
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My thoughts exactly. You can't be overprotective with all your prospects. It's a case by case situation, and Subban's reactions so far warrants a longer stint with progressively accrued responsibilities. My impression is that he'll react just fine, that's why I'm pretty sure he's up to the task of being #4 on the team already. It's his place to win or to lose.
Well said and thats where people who say that "hes not ready" or "let's not burn him" are wrong. Skill and physically wise, the guy is ready no doubt, but what makes me believe that he's ready now is his mental strength.

And for those who say that Martin will ruin him, understand that he played him like a veteran and averaged 20 mins a game. No rookie defenseman have played that much since i started to watch the Habs in '89. If ya'll watch the olympics, hes that Doughty, Boyle and Keith type of defensmen that you desperately need in your team for your transition game and avoid to spend to much time in your zone. Some guys mentally are just stronger than your average person and this guy is special.

I think it was good for him to play in the AHL, but now its time for him to play with the best in the world. Believe me, the learning curve wont be too long. I hope they trade Spacek to open a roster spot for him at the trade deadline.

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02-28-2010, 11:02 AM
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HE WAS EFFECTIVE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. More so than Spaced-out. Did you WATCH the games against Philly?? I'm not talking about his rushes, I'm talking of his play on defense, which is not something as glaring as the rushes, but someone with a keen eye for defensive play will tell you Subban is ahead of most Ds on the team when it comes to decision making in his own zone.
So playing the forwards role and letting the front of the net empty is a good thing to do for a defenseman? On a few occasion, Subban left his position to help Gill who was along the board. It wasn't his job to do that. He needs to keep his position. If you would have said he's ready in the offensive zone, I wouldn't have said anything, but he's clearly not perfect in his own zone. IMO, he still has to learn a few things. Then again, it was only two games...maybe he would be able to make the correction with a few more games. We just don't know...but from what I've seen (which is the same two games as you), he's ready in the offensive zone, but not in his own zone.

Quote:
And we've never heard of young studs not slowing down either. that's the whole point you doof. You are SURE he can't do the job, what I'm saying is that you're opinion is based on nothing much but alarmist drivel (yet another proof with that last statement). You'll never know if he can or can't do it if you don't try him, and try him until he fails. Which IMO, he won't. That's why I think he is ready.
But you are SURE he can do the job. You're no better than him. Keep that in mind.

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02-28-2010, 11:08 AM
  #72
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So playing the forwards role and letting the front of the net empty is a good thing to do for a defenseman? On a few occasion, Subban left his position to help Gill who was along the board. It wasn't his job to do that. He needs to keep his position. If you would have said he's ready in the offensive zone, I wouldn't have said anything, but he's clearly not perfect in his own zone. IMO, he still has to learn a few things. Then again, it was only two games...maybe he would be able to make the correction with a few more games. We just don't know...but from what I've seen (which is the same two games as you), he's ready in the offensive zone, but not in his own zone.


But you are SURE he can do the job. You're no better than him. Keep that in mind.
I never said he was perfect either, but please do consider and compare his error rate to the rest of our defense, and he is easily in our top 4 as we don't have top 4 players on defense who are naturals and effective on the right side. I did notice he got out of position from time to time, but his adaptation seems exceptional. Every step he has taken since joining the CHL has been adaptation/improvement/stability. IMO he is ready defensively, as his error ratio was low. The mistakes you refered too were also less frequent when he played with Hammer or Gorges. Playing with Hal Gill in your first game ever is no small dice, even for an elite prospect.

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02-28-2010, 12:07 PM
  #73
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With Zidlicky close to signing a 3-year, 12M$ extension, you have to figure the market value for Spacek's contract is absolutely fine.

I'm pretty sure somewhere between 5-10 teams would be willing to part with an asset of some value, if not market value, for a player of Spacek's ability.

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02-28-2010, 12:20 PM
  #74
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Subban is an elite prospect because he has shown the skills and has the physicality. He can absolutely earn his top-4 role this season or next with his mental response. We don't need to babysit every prospect in the AHL for 3 seasons, the NHL is a young-man's game.

What if the Kings had shoved Doughty in the minors?
By all means, keep Subban up. But ease him up. Let him cut his teeth in bottom-pairing minutes, let him show he can do that on a regular basis, then promote him.

I don't think he's ready to be a top-4 defenseman (and he's certainly not ready to handle Spacek's #2-quality minutes) but he could convince me otherwise by playing well at the NHL level.

Don't throw him to the wolves before he's even shown he can handle the NHL on an extended basis. I think he can, but like I said, big step from there to top-4 minutes.

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02-28-2010, 01:01 PM
  #75
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By all means, keep Subban up. But ease him up. Let him cut his teeth in bottom-pairing minutes, let him show he can do that on a regular basis, then promote him.

I don't think he's ready to be a top-4 defenseman (and he's certainly not ready to handle Spacek's #2-quality minutes) but he could convince me otherwise by playing well at the NHL level.

Don't throw him to the wolves before he's even shown he can handle the NHL on an extended basis. I think he can, but like I said, big step from there to top-4 minutes.
That's where IMO you are wrong, it's not like he doesn't have bad veterans to help him on the left side and mentor him, he'd be playing with either Markov or Hammer. What happened against Philly IMO will be a recurring theme. Subban starting the game on the bottom pairing and ending the game playing mostly with one of the team's two best LD. The transition he brings is way too important to today's game to ignore. Things went well when we had Streit playing the right side. He was bad defensively on the right side, but we had one hell of a transition game. Same thing here applies, yet Subban has already shown more consistency in his defensive play because it is his natural side. That's why I don't see it as far away as you. The Habs have OB as the only right handed D. Mara, Spacek and Gorges are all playing on their unatural side. Subban brings that much needed balance that it will become inevitable, and pretty soon, if he does indeed get called back.

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