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Old
02-27-2010, 08:24 PM
  #51
gabeliscious
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Dont like it.

Grabovksi >> White.

White is dead weight, Can go after Armstrong in July. 1st would be nice, but not to take on White for Grabo.
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Originally Posted by SchennForCaptain View Post
how about

To Toronto: NJ 2010 1st , Atl 2010 2nd , Armstrong and Cormier or Klingberg

To Atlanta: Grabovski, Ponikarovsky and Tor 2010 3rd
i can see poni for jerseys 1st as being reasonable. some might argue it is a bit much for poni but really a late first or early 2nd, there isnt too much difference and if there is a bidding war it is not unreasonable.

grabs and our 3rd for white and armstrong is not reasonable imo. i would say white has little utility to the leafs at the moment, especially if we are giving up grabs who we paid a 2nd rounder for. armstrong is an ufa who i dont see burke being interested in. not that he wouldnt be a decent 3rd liner for us but he is going to want upwards of $2.5 million imo.

no way leafs are trading anymore picks though. for this to work atlanta needs to add a bit

poni and grabs

for

white, jerseys first, jerseys 2nd


that could potentially get it done

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Old
02-27-2010, 08:33 PM
  #52
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Idk you would think a 26 year old would have proved something by now or showed signs. I don't know if i would want to overpay for Grabovski anymore.
Well with guys like Peverly and Antropov, Atlanta fans should know better than anyone the perks of waiting on late bloomers.

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02-27-2010, 08:44 PM
  #53
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Not terrible, but that 3rd would more than likely mean our 2nd pick in the draft wouldn't be until around 95. And Army, while someone we'd want, would be available on July 1. Just keep it simple, Poni for the pick
If you don't want Armstrong and/or White then the thrashers won't be interested grabovski as they would have too many forwards. If you want to keep it simple, Poni for a pick, then that pick becomes a 2nd not a 1st as per original proposal. The only way you are going to get NJ's 1st from Atlanta if you also include Grabovski and take Todd White. White has one year left on his contract at $2.4m. He is less than a year from a 73 point season and before that a consistent 35-45 point center not too different to what Grabovski is expected to produce. If paired with Kessel he would probably hit 50+ points again as he is a smart player. White scoring has been way down this season due to arrival of Antropov taking his no 1 center job as well as his entire line last year (including himself) slumping offensively. Little has been snakebit and Kozlov has been very poor. White is a kind of player that need his wingers firing for him to post big numbers. At the moment he is playing out of position at wing as Antropov, Peverley, Slater and Reasoner have been pretty good at center.

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02-27-2010, 08:54 PM
  #54
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
poni and grabs

for

white, jerseys first, jerseys 2nd


that could potentially get it done
Take out the 2nd round pick going to Toronto from atlanta and its Ok from my pov.

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Old
02-27-2010, 08:56 PM
  #55
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i knw i m off topic but i was just thinking ....

Toronto:

Poni
Kaberle
XLB

Washington:

rights to Nicklas Backstrom (summer)

Or

Anaheim:

Bobby Ryan

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Old
02-27-2010, 08:56 PM
  #56
dredeye
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Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz View Post
If you don't want Armstrong and/or White then the thrashers won't be interested grabovski as they would have too many forwards. If you want to keep it simple, Poni for a pick, then that pick becomes a 2nd not a 1st as per original proposal. The only way you are going to get NJ's 1st from Atlanta if you also include Grabovski and take Todd White. White has one year left on his contract at $2.4m. He is less than a year from a 73 point season and before that a consistent 35-45 point center not too different to what Grabovski is expected to produce. If paired with Kessel he would probably hit 50+ points again as he is a smart player. White scoring has been way down this season due to arrival of Antropov taking his no 1 center job as well as his entire line last year (including himself) slumping offensively. Little has been snakebit and Kozlov has been very poor. White is a kind of player that need his wingers firing for him to post big numbers. At the moment he is playing out of position at wing as Antropov, Peverley, Slater and Reasoner have been pretty good at center.
The trade is really good for both sides IMO. I'd have no problem with the OP. With the loss of Grabs as has been stated we'd need White regardless but I think he'd do will in T.O. I don't see White being any kind of problem for Burke.

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02-27-2010, 08:59 PM
  #57
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That's grand for you. Keep him. That doesn't change the fact that this conversation about the LEafs and Grabovski has absolutely nothing to do with Ryder or the Bruins.
Not sure how I could make that any more clear but it wasn't addressed to you so I won't respond to you about it anymore. As for the first part. Fine we'll keep him. Is that suppose to upset me? Really don't have a problem with a talented young center playing for us.

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Old
02-27-2010, 09:17 PM
  #58
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Buddy you seem to be enjoying trolling a leafs thrashers thread. What does this thread have to do with Antropov or Kaberle? How can Grabovski not find a spot on the Toronto roster exactly? He was our 2nd line center all season until he got hurt and will be exactly that when he get's back. Really, concern yourself with Bruins stuff and leave this to leafs/thrasher fans. If you actually take the time to read the thread a lot of Thrasher fans seem to have a good bit of interest in him. Just because you personally have a hate on for him doesn't mean your right. I'd have no problem with the leafs keeping him but I'd be willing to trade him for the trade that's been offered here
First of all, if you want to start a Grabovski appreciation thread and waive your pom poms for him, then do it on the Leafs board. When someone starts a trade thread with him in it in the general forum then anyone is entitled to comment on his ability without being called a troll. If I start raiding the Leafs board bagging on Grabovski, then by all means call me a troll, but that won't happen.

My opinion, which I'm fully entitled to in this thread, is that Grabovski is way overpaid for a 26 year old with a career high of 20 goals (once) that does next to nothing when he's not scoring. He doesn't win faceoffs, he doesn't kill penalties, and he doesn't play with even a hint of physicality. He's the 2nd line center on the Leafs largely because there's no one else to take the job. At almost $3 million/year for a guy that doesn't do any of those things that make great centers, well, sorry, but I want more offense before I start calling that contract anywhere near palatable.

As it pertains to this thread, Atlanta would be foolish to have Grabovski included in any trade that doesn't include an additional pick or allow them to dump a salary back to Toronto. How's that for relevancy...is that all right?

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Old
02-27-2010, 09:30 PM
  #59
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You guys would be dumping salary on us with him coming back, But we'd be off the hook for Whites for a guy who hasnt played well, and isnt fitting in our system. White can be a really good player if he is paired with the right person (73 points last year. come on) You guys are getting armstrong, who as well, can play 2nd/3rd and adds physical presense, and is willing to stick up for his team mates.

Poni/Grabs/

White/NJD First/Armstrong

White fills in at center for you, you get another first to help offset the loss of your first to Boston, and a durable 3rd liner.

Atl gets a UFA to help a playoff push, Grabs who while still young, hasnt played to his contract and hasnt really turned out after a year with Wilson.

I think you wash poni and armstrong. And its basically a first and white for grabs.
I still think you guys would have to toss us a 3rd/4th in return to even it up, but otherwise i would take that deal and run. You guys can have ASF too.

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Old
02-27-2010, 09:35 PM
  #60
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My opinion, which I'm fully entitled to in this thread, is that Grabovski is way overpaid for a 26 year old with a career high of 20 goals (once) that does next to nothing when he's not scoring. He doesn't win faceoffs, he doesn't kill penalties, and he doesn't play with even a hint of physicality. He's the 2nd line center on the Leafs largely because there's no one else to take the job. At almost $3 million/year for a guy that doesn't do any of those things that make great centers, well, sorry, but I want more offense before I start calling that contract anywhere near palatable.

As it pertains to this thread, Atlanta would be foolish to have Grabovski included in any trade that doesn't include an additional pick or allow them to dump a salary back to Toronto. How's that for relevancy...is that all right?
The fact that you say that he scored 20 goals once as one of your main arguments is laughable. Grabovski is currently in his second season

Grabovski can win faceoffs...All centerman can win facoffs.... he's improved throughout his career.

He doesn't play with a hint of physicallity?



Look, its clear that you don't see enough leaf games. Grabovski is worth his 2.9 million dollar contract. Its only for 2 more years after this season. He's still learning the NHL. He got 48 points as a rookie... and He will likely reach 55+ points at somepoint in his career.


Grabovski is by no means a Salary dump... That speculation is just bias on your part.

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02-27-2010, 10:04 PM
  #61
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Look Leaf fans, you can sell us that Kaberle is a top offensive defenseman, you can sell us that Antropov/Poni are worth a 1st at the trade deadline...all that is a decent debate. But not that Grabo is anything but overpaid. Sorry, he's a one dimensional 26 year old that can't find a spot on a toronto team devoid of centers.
Well, Grabovski is unquestionably overpaid right now. It happens with a lot of younger players, and the same could probably be said for Krejci, Wideman, and Lucic in Boston for example. It doesn't mean that a team should cut their losses and deal the player away for whatever they can get (whatever that may be). To some extent, it makes a lot more sense for a team to gamble that these players will realize the upside that they've proven to get that large contract, rather than cutting them loose and taking another gamble on a rookie or free agent.

I question why you say that he can't find a spot in Toronto though. He's a favourite of Wilson's, and would be playing premium minutes if he didn't break his wrist. Burke gave him a contract with term on it, so he presumably plans on keeping him. Like I said in an earlier post, the willingness (or lack thereof) of Leafs fans to trade a player doesn't have any bearing on their actual value in Toronto.

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02-27-2010, 10:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by chx555 View Post
i knw i m off topic but i was just thinking ....

Toronto:

Poni
Kaberle
XLB

Washington:

rights to Nicklas Backstrom (summer)

Or

Anaheim:


Bobby Ryan


I would do anyone of those

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Old
02-27-2010, 10:26 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz View Post
If you don't want Armstrong and/or White then the thrashers won't be interested grabovski as they would have too many forwards. If you want to keep it simple, Poni for a pick, then that pick becomes a 2nd not a 1st as per original proposal. The only way you are going to get NJ's 1st from Atlanta if you also include Grabovski and take Todd White. White has one year left on his contract at $2.4m. He is less than a year from a 73 point season and before that a consistent 35-45 point center not too different to what Grabovski is expected to produce. If paired with Kessel he would probably hit 50+ points again as he is a smart player. White scoring has been way down this season due to arrival of Antropov taking his no 1 center job as well as his entire line last year (including himself) slumping offensively. Little has been snakebit and Kozlov has been very poor. White is a kind of player that need his wingers firing for him to post big numbers. At the moment he is playing out of position at wing as Antropov, Peverley, Slater and Reasoner have been pretty good at center.
You seem to have alot of comparisons between Grabovski and White! Is age not important? You know... since White is 9 YEARS OLDER than Grabs? Seriously man.... the Leafs really aren't interested in 35-year old centers! Or defensemen for that matter. We just shipped out our senior citizens to Calgary and Anaheim (Primeau will be gone soon too) and I seriously doubt we wanna add another one!

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02-27-2010, 10:30 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Psydeshow View Post
You seem to have alot of comparisons between Grabovski and White! Is age not important? You know... since White is 9 YEARS OLDER that Grabs? Seriously man.... the Leafs really aren't interested in 35-year old centers! Or defensemen for that matter. We just shipped out our senior citizens to Calgary and Anaheim (Primeau will be gone soon too) and I seriously doubt we wanna add another one.
Our 35 center is a year removed from a 73 point season.

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02-27-2010, 10:34 PM
  #65
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Our 35 center is a year removed from a 73 point season.
What's your point? Toronto won't be competitive for at least 3 seasons when White is 38! I'll take my chances that Grabovski (then 29) will be more serviceable at that point than a 38-year old center who will then be 4 years removed from a 73 point season!

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Old
02-27-2010, 10:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by chx555 View Post
i knw i m off topic but i was just thinking ....

Toronto:

Poni
Kaberle
XLB

Washington:

rights to Nicklas Backstrom (summer)

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Old
02-27-2010, 11:04 PM
  #67
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You seem to have alot of comparisons between Grabovski and White! Is age not important? You know... since White is 9 YEARS OLDER than Grabs? Seriously man.... the Leafs really aren't interested in 35-year old centers! Or defensemen for that matter. We just shipped out our senior citizens to Calgary and Anaheim (Primeau will be gone soon too) and I seriously doubt we wanna add another one!
You do realize that we traded 3 guys under 30 to Calgary right? We shipped out two older players and one had an expiring contract so he was a non issue to begin with. There is no problem adding White to our team in a trade if only to balance out contracts. He's a ufa at the end of next season and can be traded at the deadline if they weren't happy with him. It's really much less of an issue then your making of it. Especially if you do believe that we are three years removed from competing.

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02-27-2010, 11:22 PM
  #68
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You do realize that we traded 3 guys under 30 to Calgary right? We shipped out two older players and one had an expiring contract so he was a non issue to begin with. There is no problem adding White to our team in a trade if only to balance out contracts. He's a ufa at the end of next season and can be traded at the deadline if they weren't happy with him. It's really much less of an issue then your making of it. Especially if you do believe that we are three years removed from competing.
Not at the price of a 26-year old center who had 20 goals in his first full season in the NHL! Even in this injury plagued season.... though his goal production was down he was on pace for around a 50-point season! (25 points in 42 games) You really wanna justify him as a throw in to "balance out contracts?"

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02-27-2010, 11:24 PM
  #69
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You do realize that we traded 3 guys under 30 to Calgary right? We shipped out two older players and one had an expiring contract so he was a non issue to begin with.
Yes... I AM aware of the ages of the players we sent to Calgary. I meant Mayers and Blake and my point was.... this team is looking to get younger. Trading 26 year olds for 35 year olds is not accomplishing that!

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02-27-2010, 11:25 PM
  #70
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First of all, if you want to start a Grabovski appreciation thread and waive your pom poms for him, then do it on the Leafs board. When someone starts a trade thread with him in it in the general forum then anyone is entitled to comment on his ability without being called a troll. If I start raiding the Leafs board bagging on Grabovski, then by all means call me a troll, but that won't happen.

My opinion, which I'm fully entitled to in this thread, is that Grabovski is way overpaid for a 26 year old with a career high of 20 goals (once) that does next to nothing when he's not scoring. He doesn't win faceoffs, he doesn't kill penalties, and he doesn't play with even a hint of physicality. He's the 2nd line center on the Leafs largely because there's no one else to take the job. At almost $3 million/year for a guy that doesn't do any of those things that make great centers, well, sorry, but I want more offense before I start calling that contract anywhere near palatable.

As it pertains to this thread, Atlanta would be foolish to have Grabovski included in any trade that doesn't include an additional pick or allow them to dump a salary back to Toronto. How's that for relevancy...is that all right?
Where exactly did I make crazy statements about Grabovski? Your doing enough of that for everyone. When a fan from another fan base comes in and contributes nothing more then bashing a player then it's trolling. Enough people have responded to this post of yours in regards to Grabovski that I don't find it necessary to post mostly the same things. His face off % is 49.7 which isn't great but does mean that he can does win them. He started the season really bad on draws and obviously brought those numbers back up almost to 50/50. He was on pace to match his point totals from last year before he got hurt. The dump they were adding is White. Any other points you care to share that have no basis to them? Your argument about how he has his job by default is about as weak an argument as anyone can make. Is he the new Stajan now?

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02-27-2010, 11:27 PM
  #71
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Yes... I AM aware of the ages of the players we sent to Calgary. I meant Mayers and Blake and my point was.... this team is looking to get younger. Trading 26 year olds for 35 year olds is not accomplishing that!
Armstrong is 26 and exactly what the leafs are lacking. It's giving to get. Oh and the 1st rounder tends to make us younger.

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02-27-2010, 11:31 PM
  #72
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Armstrong is 26 and exactly what the leafs are lacking. It's giving to get. Oh and the 1st rounder tends to make us younger.
Armstrong is a UFA and it makes absolutely NO SENSE for us to trade for him. The Ponikarovsky for Armstrong "is a wash" argument is stupid because we can actually get something for Poni now rather than trade him for a guy Burke can just sign in the off season if he really wants him. Theres no playoff run here so adding UFA's that may walk in the off season in exchange for the few assets we have makes absolutely ZERO SENSE!

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02-27-2010, 11:32 PM
  #73
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Not at the price of a 26-year old center who had 20 goals in his first full season in the NHL! Even in this injury plagued season.... though his goal production was down he was on pace for around a 50-point season! (25 points in 42 games) You really wanna justify him as a throw in to "balance out contracts?"
I'm not saying Grabovski is the throw in I'm saying White is for Atl as they need to make room for him positionally and with salary.

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02-27-2010, 11:35 PM
  #74
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Well, Grabovski is unquestionably overpaid right now. It happens with a lot of younger players, and the same could probably be said for Krejci, Wideman, and Lucic in Boston for example. It doesn't mean that a team should cut their losses and deal the player away for whatever they can get (whatever that may be). To some extent, it makes a lot more sense for a team to gamble that these players will realize the upside that they've proven to get that large contract, rather than cutting them loose and taking another gamble on a rookie or free agent.

I question why you say that he can't find a spot in Toronto though. He's a favourite of Wilson's, and would be playing premium minutes if he didn't break his wrist. Burke gave him a contract with term on it, so he presumably plans on keeping him. Like I said in an earlier post, the willingness (or lack thereof) of Leafs fans to trade a player doesn't have any bearing on their actual value in Toronto.
Yet another example of why you're my favorite Leaf poster...honestly, no joke. You're right, you've probably noticed that I've never said that Grabovski isn't skilled, that he can't skate, stickhandle, etc. He's a decently skilled player for sure, but yeah, he's overpaid at this point. Wideman has stunk this year and hasn't earned his keep, but he was a bargain last year for his salary, so who knows which player we'll see moving forward. I think the Olympics proved that David Krejci is probably going to be worth his salary moving forward, and his 70+ season last year is probably going to be his likely career arc moving forward. But I'll agree with you on Lucic...the minute that contract kicks in next year he's going to be considered overpaid...and rightfully so. But like Grabovski you're not going to see the Bruins start trying to dump him because of it, nor should you.

The point I've been trying to make isn't that Grabovski stinks, but rather that he has no trade value because of his contract. He's 26, he's not a well rounded player, and he makes $3 million. If his offense was off the charts then yeah, who cares what else he does, but because it's not then he has to be considered overpaid.

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02-28-2010, 12:00 AM
  #75
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The point I've been trying to make isn't that Grabovski stinks, but rather that he has no trade value because of his contract. He's 26, he's not a well rounded player, and he makes $3 million. If his offense was off the charts then yeah, who cares what else he does, but because it's not then he has to be considered overpaid.
Yeah, that's reasonable. To be honest, I'm not sure why people are jumping on you, its pretty indisputable that he's overpaid right now.

Anyways, Grabovski's hard to figure out, but he's obviously got some talent - he was dynamite for Belarus at the world championships last year. He works as hard as anybody on the team, but he probably wastes more energy than anybody on the team as well. When he puts it all together (like he did around this time last year) he's a lot of fun to watch. The coaches love him because he's one of the hardest working players in practice, which is bound to start paying off at some point.

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