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Habs-Plekanec Dialogue today, Deal will Likely be reached after deadline

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Old
03-02-2010, 07:05 AM
  #51
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I don't get the overreaction. This is possibly the worst possible time to sign Plekanec because his value is at a premium and because of the rush to sign players before the trade deadline. Agents use this to boost their demands because they know full well that teams will want to protect themselves against loosing players for nothing.

There is a risk that we'll loose him but, on the other hand, this gives the team a chance to truly evaluate his value from now until the end of the season and, more importantly, during the playoffs. This might very well bring his demands back to a more decent level and that's only good for a team that's not in a very good position cap-wise like the Habs.

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03-02-2010, 08:10 AM
  #52
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i'd really like to know what people will say IF pleks signs elsewhere as a UFA this summer...

will the same people now defending management and talking about "overreactions" be the ones bashing the player for being greedy or disloyal, and trying to argue that management did the right thing because he's not worth what some other team is willing to offer him? (much like what happened last year with Komisarek)


if this was a unique or rare situation, the habs letting a key player head into UFAgency without a deal done, then it would probably be an overreaction to be worried about losing him for nothing...

but do people have no memory?

Souray
Streit
Ryder
Kovalev
Koivu
Komisarek
Tanguay

that's a long list of talented players come and gone as UFA, with no assets in return, in THE PAST 3 SEASONS...
few if any teams could match that list.
It reflects and organizational approach that, result wise, clearly has not been successful.

it's that history that, imo, makes it perfectly reasonable to question and criticize what appears to be more of the same.

i hope the self-proclaimed "optimists" are right, and that Gauthier proves to be better at managing the teams assets than his predecessor. Being open and willing to negotiate with players during the season is a nice first step, but if it doesn't result in a deal, and they don't make a trade to address that, it won't make much of a difference.

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03-02-2010, 08:18 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i'd really like to know what people will say IF pleks signs elsewhere as a UFA this summer...

will the same people now defending management and talking about "overreactions" be the ones bashing the player for being greedy or disloyal, and trying to argue that management did the right thing because he's not worth what some other team is willing to offer him? (much like what happened last year with Komisarek)


if this was a unique or rare situation, the habs letting a key player head into UFAgency without a deal done, then it would probably be an overreaction to be worried about losing him for nothing...

but do people have no memory?

Souray
Streit
Ryder
Kovalev
Koivu
Komisarek
Tanguay

that's a long list of talented players come and gone as UFA, with no assets in return, in THE PAST 3 SEASONS...
few if any teams could match that list.
It reflects and organizational approach that, result wise, clearly has not been successful.

it's that history that, imo, makes it perfectly reasonable to question and criticize what appears to be more of the same.

i hope the self-proclaimed "optimists" are right, and that Gauthier proves to be better at managing the teams assets than his predecessor. Being open and willing to negotiate with players during the season is a nice first step, but if it doesn't result in a deal, and they don't make a trade to address that, it won't make much of a difference.
What is the common denominator on all those players? Apart from Stret they ended up not living up to their contracts elwhere.

Why are you so paranoid about losing players to UFA when for most of those guys somebody was brought in that's as productive or more.

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03-02-2010, 08:31 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What is the common denominator on all those players? Apart from Stret they ended up not living up to their contracts elwhere.

Why are you so paranoid about losing players to UFA when for most of those guys somebody was brought in that's as productive or more.
well, maybe it has something to do with the team maintaining a mediocre level of play with those "replacements".

the goal is to BUILD a winner, not develop players and then replace them with more costly and marginally more productive UFA's that other teams have no interest whatsoever in paying what you NEED to pay them, since you need to replace the talent you've lost for nothing... just to stay at the same level.

and by the way:

- Koivu and Tanguay certainly have lived up to their contracts.

- Much better odds that Kovalev will do a better job living up to his 2 year deal than Gionta will living up to the 5 years we gave him.

- komisarek is in the first year of the new deal, and has struggled with injuries all year, a bit early to completely write him off despite how much it might help ease the frustration at losing him

that leaves only Souray and Ryder... and Souray's issue has continued to be injuries, in his healthy seasons with Edmonton he was playing quite well.

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03-02-2010, 08:31 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What is the common denominator on all those players? Apart from Stret they ended up not living up to their contracts elwhere.

Why are you so paranoid about losing players to UFA when for most of those guys somebody was brought in that's as productive or more.
Whether or not they have lived up to the contracts in kinda irrelevant. If we weren't planning on resigning any of them we could of restocked the prospect pool at the very least by trading them.

I could see hanging onto them if we could jusitfy it by winning, but our results have been terrible and our asset management has been even worse. A fringe team like us should be doing everything it can to bring in younger, cheaper talent.

Some of these guys would of been near the top of players available at trade deadline. Dominic Moore has twice been traded for a 2nd pick. Everyone on the list had more value then him.

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03-02-2010, 08:41 AM
  #56
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well, maybe it has something to do with the team maintaining a mediocre level of play with those "replacements".

the goal is to BUILD a winner, not develop players and then replace them with more costly and marginally more productive UFA's that other teams have no interest whatsoever in paying what you NEED to pay them, since you need to replace the talent you've lost for nothing... just to stay at the same level.

and by the way:

- Koivu and Tanguay certainly have lived up to their contracts.

- Much better odds that Kovalev will do a better job living up to his 2 year deal than Gionta will living up to the 5 years we gave him.

- komisarek is in the first year of the new deal, and has struggled with injuries all year, a bit early to completely write him off despite how much it might help ease the frustration at losing him

that leaves only Souray and Ryder... and Souray's issue has continued to be injuries, in his healthy seasons with Edmonton he was playing quite well.
You can't call this season mediocre. To be in a playoff spot with all the key players we have lost for extended periods is nothing short of great.

Koivu and Tanguay may have lived up to the contracts they eventulally got...but not the ones they were looking for to sign before July 1st. Tanguay would have cost 4-4.5 mil before July 1st, Koivu probably more than he got also. Our top 2 centers are head and shoulders above what Koivu has been.

Gionta is a better 5 on 5 player and much more consistant contributor than Kovalev.

Komisarek was never worth the money he signed for, not even close. As much as people crap on Spacek he's playing better than Komisarek did in 2009.

Souray is massively overpaid for a guy that's primary weapon is his PP shot. He brings an element of toughness and leadership but age and wear and tear have reduced the toughness.

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03-02-2010, 08:47 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Whether or not they have lived up to the contracts in kinda irrelevant. If we weren't planning on resigning any of them we could of restocked the prospect pool at the very least by trading them.

I could see hanging onto them if we could jusitfy it by winning, but our results have been terrible and our asset management has been even worse. A fringe team like us should be doing everything it can to bring in younger, cheaper talent.

Some of these guys would of been near the top of players available at trade deadline. Dominic Moore has twice been traded for a 2nd pick. Everyone on the list had more value then him.


Nobody in their right mind "restocks their prospect pool" by trading players like that with 6 weeks left in the season when in a playoff spot.

What's the point of dumping every UFA on the roster and adding to the prospect pool if you have no job after the season as GM.

You are not living in the real world...more like the HF world, where you can dump all your brest players, get an early pick and be a contender in 3 years...but not lose your GM job.

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Old
03-02-2010, 08:49 AM
  #58
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Whether or not they have lived up to the contracts in kinda irrelevant. If we weren't planning on resigning any of them we could of restocked the prospect pool at the very least by trading them.
Just because they weren't resigned, doesn't mean management didn't want to re-sign them. Offers were made to Souray, Kovy and Komi and they were turned down. I'm sure Ryder was shopped, but there were no takers. You can't trade Koivu (NTC) as well as for other sentimental reasons. Tanguay didn't prove his worth(less) until he bailed in the playoffs. Streit was the only real mistake. That's just because they could have signed him for cheap before getting close to UFA.

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Old
03-02-2010, 08:54 AM
  #59
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To be in a playoff spot with all the key players we have lost for extended periods is nothing short of great.
.
I'm nitpicking but this is a pet peeve of mine to say that we are in a playoff spot. We are not holding a playoff spot at the moment.

Either you acknowledge games in hands, and thus we should be out. Or you don't and then it's undecided until those games are played.

That said, yes, we are in a good position to make the playoffs with players returning provided that we win quite a bit.

Carry on.

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03-02-2010, 08:57 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I'm nitpicking but this is a pet peeve of mine to say that we are in a playoff spot. We are not holding a playoff spot at the moment.

Either you acknowledge games in hands, and thus we should be out. Or you don't and then it's undecided until those games are played.

That said, yes, we are in a good position to make the playoffs with players returning provided that we win quite a bit.

Carry on.
Yes we are . Should the teams below us all lose the games in hand and have the same record as us for the other games to be played, we make the playoffs, they don't.

Period.

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03-02-2010, 08:58 AM
  #61
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Offers were made to Souray, Kovy and Komi and they were turned down.
Exactly. They were turned down. AKA management ****ed up by not negotiating a deal before the deadline.

If Plekanec isn't signed before the deadline, the sensible thing to do would be to trade him now and (maybe) try to sign him in the offseason if he's not signed before then. That is good asset management for a team that is nowhere close to a contender. The reason we don't progress at all is precisely because we keep losing good players for nothing and we have no good young guys to replace them (a combination of mediocre drafting and not getting assets in return for the players we lose).

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03-02-2010, 09:02 AM
  #62
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I am doing a facepalm, right here in Cuba, man this organisation really know how to ruin someone vacations.

seriously it wont ruin my vacation, because i will have to use the ignorance skill what else can i do..

I guess it means 1 thing, Gauthier will be active, if Gauthier wants to sign plek after the deadline, i would think it because he will be a buyer... seriously he sounds more like nothing is gonna happen.. the objective his to be a top6 team right, how feasible is that right now.. this organisation as lacks guts since S.Savard as left as gm.. since then we havent really had a clear identity.. and yet we wont choose a captain until next year i guess.. lol..

talk about identity.. seriously guys, how can someone do more facepalm than that..

please guys, someone remind me Gauthier is just interim.. is he? please tell me so!!!

I just wish, Gauthier will surprise me positively tomorow, but i already have expectations to 5%.

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03-02-2010, 09:06 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can't call this season mediocre. To be in a playoff spot with all the key players we have lost for extended periods is nothing short of great.
make the excuses that you want, the results are mediocre. last year we had a lot of injuries as well, and the team finished ahead of what this team is on pace for.

this roster is a marginal, if any, improvement from last season... but at least last year we weren't locked into so many bad contracts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Koivu and Tanguay may have lived up to the contracts they eventulally got...but not the ones they were looking for to sign before July 1st. Tanguay would have cost 4-4.5 mil before July 1st, Koivu probably more than he got also. Our top 2 centers are head and shoulders above what Koivu has been.
simply not true.

Koivu has been almost as effective as Gomez, and at a fraction of the price.


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Gionta is a better 5 on 5 player and much more consistant contributor than Kovalev.
go look up their production over the past 3-4 seasons, and tell us again who is the more consistent producer.
Kovalev may not consistently play up to his potential, but he still produces better than gionta at this point... in 3-4-5 years, do you really think Gionta's production is going to improve? i'd bet it's far more likely that he stays the same, or declines

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Komisarek was never worth the money he signed for, not even close. As much as people crap on Spacek he's playing better than Komisarek did in 2009.
komisarek, at the level he played in 07-08, was very close to a 4-5M$ player... he's been fighting injuries since then, perhaps he'll never bounce back, but he's young enough that it's certainly possible.

Spacek being better than Komisarek in 09 (and at a higher cap hit), is no consolation. Komisarek was brutal most of last year, spacek is a step above brutal, and we get to pay him ~4M$ for 2 more seasons...

not exactly something to rave about imo.


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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Souray is massively overpaid for a guy that's primary weapon is his PP shot. He brings an element of toughness and leadership but age and wear and tear have reduced the toughness.
again, edm was more than happy with his play/performance, when he was healthy.
injuries have decimated him...

still doesn't make it any better that we let him walk for nothing in a season where we traded away other veteran talent prior to the deadline, made no attempt to improve the team, and then missed the playoffs

selling, but not completely, missing the playoffs, and then watching assets walk for nothing... the kind of stuff that should get a GM fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Nobody in their right mind "restocks their prospect pool" by trading players like that with 6 weeks left in the season when in a playoff spot.

What's the point of dumping every UFA on the roster and adding to the prospect pool if you have no job after the season as GM.

You are not living in the real world...more like the HF world, where you can dump all your brest players, get an early pick and be a contender in 3 years...but not lose your GM job.
the "real world" we all live in is one where the habs have been a mediocre team poorly run for way way way too long.

but if you're happy with the 7-10, good enough to fight for a playoff spot (or just miss it) but no where near good enough to realistically contend, then i guess you're loving the way this management team runs things.

I'd rather live in the real world that Detroit fans live in, thank you very much.

sad thing is that a guy like Gainey, with his death hold grip on the job and on the owner's faith, could EASILY have gone the "re-build" route last season.
trading away guys like koivu/kovalev/tanguay/schneider at the deadline last season would have brought us in some quality assets, and made his summer re-building job much much easier...

instead, he made desperation moves (including firing the coach he had called his best move as a GM a few weeks earlier) that culminated in the roster we now have, and likely in watching Plekanec walk as a ufa...

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03-02-2010, 09:15 AM
  #64
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True, anything PG will do someone will not be happy. Unless he get a home discount with a contract under 4m/year.
Then someone will complain Pleks shouldn't have been signed because he's too small and too soft.

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03-02-2010, 09:17 AM
  #65
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make the excuses that you want, the results are mediocre. last year we had a lot of injuries as well, and the team finished ahead of what this team is on pace for.

this roster is a marginal, if any, improvement from last season... but at least last year we weren't locked into so many bad contracts.




simply not true.

Koivu has been almost as effective as Gomez, and at a fraction of the price.




go look up their production over the past 3-4 seasons, and tell us again who is the more consistent producer.
Kovalev may not consistently play up to his potential, but he still produces better than gionta at this point... in 3-4-5 years, do you really think Gionta's production is going to improve? i'd bet it's far more likely that he stays the same, or declines



komisarek, at the level he played in 07-08, was very close to a 4-5M$ player... he's been fighting injuries since then, perhaps he'll never bounce back, but he's young enough that it's certainly possible.

Spacek being better than Komisarek in 09 (and at a higher cap hit), is no consolation. Komisarek was brutal most of last year, spacek is a step above brutal, and we get to pay him ~4M$ for 2 more seasons...

not exactly something to rave about imo.




again, edm was more than happy with his play/performance, when he was healthy.
injuries have decimated him...

still doesn't make it any better that we let him walk for nothing in a season where we traded away other veteran talent prior to the deadline, made no attempt to improve the team, and then missed the playoffs

selling, but not completely, missing the playoffs, and then watching assets walk for nothing... the kind of stuff that should get a GM fired.



the "real world" we all live in is one where the habs have been a mediocre team poorly run for way way way too long.

but if you're happy with the 7-10, good enough to fight for a playoff spot (or just miss it) but no where near good enough to realistically contend, then i guess you're loving the way this management team runs things.

I'd rather live in the real world that Detroit fans live in, thank you very much.

sad thing is that a guy like Gainey, with his death hold grip on the job and on the owner's faith, could EASILY have gone the "re-build" route last season.
trading away guys like koivu/kovalev/tanguay/schneider at the deadline last season would have brought us in some quality assets, and made his summer re-building job much much easier...

instead, he made desperation moves (including firing the coach he had called his best move as a GM a few weeks earlier) that culminated in the roster we now have, and likely in watching Plekanec walk as a ufa...
Trading away 4 of our best players last year at the deadline is not living in the real world, a GM that does that would be fired within 3-4 months if not the same day.

As much as the HF world preaches draft picks, prospects and tanking, the real world pushes for playoff hockey, being in the race and playoff revenue.

You make it sound like the Habs are 7-10 each year, the year AFTER they apparenly screw up badly and did not move Souray and co, they finished 1st in the conference.

The last 2 years have been a slew of injuries, maybe the team was too old last year, well they went with a younger group this year but we still had a ton of them. Soiunds like more bad luck than bad mangement, most of the guys that got hurt have been durable players prior to this year, not like we have a team of Brunets.


I have not agreed with every move, but as a whol;e team team built is far from mediocre.

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03-02-2010, 09:18 AM
  #66
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You know, before last year Gainey had never actually failed at re-signing a guy he wanted to keep, and last year he only did because Komisarek decided he wanted to leave and get more money than he deserved (and I'm not sure how much the Habs really wanted to keep him anyway). It's not THAT hard to re-sign your own players, and Gauthier does sound confident that they'll get it settled.

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03-02-2010, 09:20 AM
  #67
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sorry guys didnt take the time to read all threads but I will be very pissed if Plekanec is not traded knowing that he wont sign back with us..if he does, I will look dumb but trading him is the way to go...we are not going for a stanley cup run...i think

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03-02-2010, 09:34 AM
  #68
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You know, before last year Gainey had never actually failed at re-signing a guy he wanted to keep, and last year he only did because Komisarek decided he wanted to leave and get more money than he deserved (and I'm not sure how much the Habs really wanted to keep him anyway). It's not THAT hard to re-sign your own players, and Gauthier does sound confident that they'll get it settled.
it is hard when you have limited cap space...

why is that so hard for some people to comprehend?

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03-02-2010, 09:39 AM
  #69
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sorry guys didnt take the time to read all threads but I will be very pissed if Plekanec is not traded knowing that he wont sign back with us..if he does, I will look dumb but trading him is the way to go...we are not going for a stanley cup run...i think
The only time we will "know he won't sign with us" is after July 1st when he is signed elswhere.

Right now he seems to want to stay and they are talking.

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03-02-2010, 09:50 AM
  #70
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The only time we will "know he won't sign with us" is after July 1st when he is signed elswhere.

Right now he seems to want to stay and they are talking.
ya I might have ovveracted a tad..just frustrated thats all ;-)

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03-02-2010, 09:51 AM
  #71
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The only time we will "know he won't sign with us" is after July 1st when he is signed elswhere.

Right now he seems to want to stay and they are talking.
Let's hope that this organization knows the difference between a guy that really wants to stay, and a guy (or his agent) who really wants to use the Habs as a bargaining chip. We've been the latter so much more in the past years....

While the player might not tell you directly, you have to find the signs that will tell you that he won't. I mean, we have seen a lot of situations in the past as far as teams trading their players 'cause they were going to be UFA even though they didn't seem to publicly stated that they wanted out.....Somehow, somebody must have done a good job knowing the real intentions.

And then, it's not necessarily about who wants to sign, but who we can afford. And at 45 M$ for 12 players and with a rumor that the cap "could" be at 53 M$, even if Pleks really wants to be back.....it might not be possible.

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03-02-2010, 10:02 AM
  #72
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Let's hope that this organization knows the difference between a guy that really wants to stay, and a guy (or his agent) who really wants to use the Habs as a bargaining chip. We've been the latter so much more in the past years....

While the player might not tell you directly, you have to find the signs that will tell you that he won't. I mean, we have seen a lot of situations in the past as far as teams trading their players 'cause they were going to be UFA even though they didn't seem to publicly stated that they wanted out.....Somehow, somebody must have done a good job knowing the real intentions.

And then, it's not necessarily about who wants to sign, but who we can afford. And at 45 M$ for 12 players and with a rumor that the cap "could" be at 53 M$, even if Pleks really wants to be back.....it might not be possible.
It's pretty common for NHL teams to spend 3/4 of the cap on 7-10 players. I think Plekanec will be signed as long as him and his agent are reasonable and the Habs get him cheaper than as a UFA(5.5+ on a 4-5 year deal on the open market). I think Gauthier would be real happy if he can get him at a 4.5-4.8 cap hit...that may not be possible but it's a reasonable starting objective. I hope he is more creative like Chiarelli and others, instead of a fixed number for 4-5 years, give him an extra year and front load the deal 6 mil 6 mil 6 mil 5 mil 3 mil 2 mil, I think that works for both sides and easy to trade if things don't work in 3-4 years, 4.67 mil hit.

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03-02-2010, 10:11 AM
  #73
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I would be more upset at Plekanec for him leading the team on than the Montreal Canadiens if he left. If he didn't want to stay he could of had it leaked that he wanted to play elsewhere (say West Coast) or that he wanted a silly number (say $6 million plus contract). That alone would of given impetus to trade him to where he wanted to go. If you have no intention of staying just leak it out, you can always deny it later or blame your agent or the rumor mills.

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Old
03-02-2010, 10:15 AM
  #74
E = CH²
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Yes we are . Should the teams below us all lose the games in hand and have the same record as us for the other games to be played, we make the playoffs, they don't.

Period.
So let's say the standings where like this :

8. Habs GP:82 PTS 95
9. Team X GP:70 PTS 94

You'd say the habs are in the playoffs ?

I mean, after all, team X could lose all of their games.......

EDIT: Whatever, don't wanna derail the thread with basic logical thinking that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

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03-02-2010, 10:21 AM
  #75
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So let's say the standings where like this :

8. Habs GP:82 PTS 95
9. Team X GP:70 PTS 94

You'd say the habs are in the playoffs ?

I mean, after all, team X could lose all of their games.......

EDIT: Whatever, don't wanna derail the thread with basic logical thinking that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You're making an exteme example. Usually games in hand are 1 and 2 so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will lose those...plus our injury ravaged team is getting healthy and had a chance to rest a lot of guys which can only help us.

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