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With no moves made, what would you rather have?

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:07 PM
  #76
Tawnos
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I'm sorry to those who view this differently, but I'll put my opinion about the deadline day very simply.

Losing in the first round in the playoffs is preferable to drafting,in a VERY good draft year, a player who has a one-in-three chance of making the NHL.

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, that's nice and cute and all, but how's that been working out for you so far? Because I've seen post like this, and your previous one, every year for as long as I can remember. I'm tired of them. I'd like to root for a team that can occasionally be good enough so that I don't have to hope for a miracle if I want them to win something.

The funniest part about the decision not to sell is that the two teams the Rangers are the likeliest to face in the first round IF they make the playoffs, the Caps and the Penguins (who will, barring injury, usurp the Atlantic Division lead from the Devils), both improved themselves significantly at this deadline, and the Rangers didn't.

It just doesn't make sense.
I can ask the same for you and the thoughts of "sell, sell, sell".

How's that been working out for you?

I don't see any selling...



We made the playoffs last year with Redden and Drury and bums like them and we still have our younger guys coming in like Anisimov and Del Zotto the following year. Why does everything have to be a lottory pick to start building a team to get past mediocrity? That's what it sounds like what you want and anyone else here who wants the team to sell in order to rebuild. I think this core looks bright to me...

-Dubinsky (late 2nd round)
-Callahan (4th round)
-Lundqvist (7th round)
-Anisimov (2nd round; too early to tell, but again, so much potential)
-Del Zotto (20th overall; tankers pick, huh?)
-Grachev (3rd round; I know he hasn't played in an NHL game, but you can't deny he has enormous potential)
-Sanguinetti (21st overall; Same thing I had to say about Grachev)


I'd say Staal too but he was a high pick. 12th overall.



These guys I mentioned were available to anyone, or straight up non-playoff teams before they got to the Rangers. You can still draft quality guys and still make the playoffs and build around them at the same time. If all goes well, I'm sure Sangs and Grachev will be on the team next season.

Anyway, what's up with the "nice and cute" reply about saying I'm a fan? Go ****ing root for the Islanders. They're heading in the right direction in my opinion. You'll enjoy what Snow's doing.

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03-03-2010, 08:12 PM
  #78
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I was Meh on the forwards that moved, Whitney intrest me the most. I would have liked to see a defensemen, in this order, Corvo, Morris (if he wavived his NTC) or Ward.

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03-03-2010, 08:13 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm too lazy to do the math, haha. What's his pro-rated cap hit?
I'm not sure, but, the way I look at it, even if it's pro-rated, it's still essentially trying to fit in a $5.25 million cap hit, since both the cap hit and space are pretty pro-rated just about the same. Teams like Nashville, LA and Phoenix have the space, but don't have the need, while I'm sure there are teams with the need, but just don't have the space.

Sather cleaned up the mess he made signing Kotalik, and, while getting an additional asset for Jokinen would have been gravy, it's just as well he didn't screw things up undoing that deal.

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
I was Meh on the forwards that moved, Whitney intrest me the most. I would have liked to see a defensemen, in this order, Corvo, Morris (if he wavived his NTC) or Ward.
Morris I wouldn't of mind if he came back for another go with us. He was solid.

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03-03-2010, 08:30 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist4Vezina View Post
Morris I wouldn't of mind if he came back for another go with us. He was solid.
good call and it only would of cost a 4th..............oh wells I guess just let the kids learn this year so they are better for next is the thought

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03-03-2010, 08:36 PM
  #82
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I know that trading Prospal today wouldn't have helped the '09-'10 Rangers...

Wouldn't have helped the '11 or '12 even...

But as NYR fans don't you think the '13 Rangers could use another good player? I bet they could... no matter what happens with Grachev, or McDougnah, or Krieder, or Stepan....

We'll see I guess. Maybe they're that good that they don't.

Maybe the drafting in place for the past couple of years would make him redundant.

I doubt it... but maybe.

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03-03-2010, 08:40 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I'm sorry to those who view this differently, but I'll put my opinion about the deadline day very simply.

Losing in the first round in the playoffs is preferable to drafting,in a VERY good draft year, a player who has a one-in-three chance of making the NHL.
In an individual year, yes, you are correct. However, having 3-5 years of first round exits is NOT preferable to a higher priority in the draft those same years. That's the point.

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:40 PM
  #84
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good call and it only would of cost a 4th..............oh wells I guess just let the kids learn this year so they are better for next is the thought
Yeah, you know, why not? Scratch Redden's sorry ass. And throw Morris in. At least he has a nice shot you can throw on the power play.

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03-03-2010, 08:50 PM
  #85
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some of you are too hung up on picks and prospects. you don't have to make deals at the trading dead line.http://hfboards.com/images/smilies/tonguesmiley-030.gif . you are either a serous contender or you are a seller otherwise there is no need to make moves. we are not serous contenders nor should we be sellers (i hate watching them lose). would you trade our players with the players traded today nnnoooo so don't complain. The only trade that was even remotely decent and relevant is the Kovy trade and we could not afford to give up a lot for a rental so today was a good day. and we are still stuck with our crappy team at least we are not worse today then we were yesterday and by the way the addition of prust and shelley were a bit underrated on these boards imop. http://hfboards.com/images/smilies/applaud.gif

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
In an individual year, yes, you are correct. However, having 3-5 years of first round exits is NOT preferable to a higher priority in the draft those same years. That's the point.
I still disagree with that sentiment. Truth is, high second rounders don't have any greater success rate than low ones.

Take the 2002 draft, for example. The Rangers took Falardeau with the third pick in the 2nd round. The best player was taken with the 24th pick in the round. In 2001, the best player was taken with the 19th pick of the 2nd round. In 2003, depending on your point of view, the best player picked was either 15th, 19th or 32nd in the 2nd round.

The first round matters more, obviously, but just barely. Trading Jokinen and Prospal would not have dropped us down that much further from where we already are with Lundqvist and Gaborik on the team. The difference between the success rate of the 6 pick vs the 12 pick is negligible.

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Old
03-03-2010, 08:59 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I still disagree with that sentiment. Truth is, high second rounders don't have any greater success rate than low ones.

Take the 2002 draft, for example. The Rangers took Falardeau with the third pick in the 2nd round. The best player was taken with the 24th pick in the round. In 2001, the best player was taken with the 19th pick of the 2nd round. In 2003, depending on your point of view, the best player picked was either 15th, 19th or 32nd in the 2nd round.

The first round matters more, obviously, but just barely. Trading Jokinen and Prospal would not have dropped us down that much further from where we already are with Lundqvist and Gaborik on the team. The difference between the success rate of the 6 pick vs the 12 pick is negligible.
You're giving individual instances which are the exceptions. Believe me, I've done statistical analysis of the draft. The success rate in the 1st round is about 54%. In the second round it drops to somewhere between 18-22%. There is definitely a difference.

And once again, the difference between the 6th pick and 12th pick in an individual draft is negligible, but the the 5-10 pick difference over the course of 3 draft years is far from negligible.

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Old
03-03-2010, 09:41 PM
  #88
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Im confused...Jokinen sucks and is a "loser" but someone should give us a second round pick for him at ~5 million dollars?

I fall into the "happy nothing happened today" camp. I think its delusional to think that this team was going to be able to move anyone for anything serious. Jokinen is not ever going to get a second round pick. Prospal might, and then what? We don't make the playoffs this year and we get a pick that we can redeem for a player who may or may not even play in this league...what a steal.

I'd rather watch playoff hockey then know we have 2 second round picks. You can think that it would make some magical difference for this team, but it won't. It just won't. For every Pittsburgh there's a Florida. For every steal in the second round there are numerous busts.

I feel like I'm listening to kids driving Lexus' complain about how their friend next door has a Ferrari. "We never make it to the finals, we're in a cycle of mediocrity, etc." Are we? You realize that only 2 of 30 teams make the finals, right? There are far worse things than making the playoffs every year. We lost to the Caps in 7 games. Yeah, Henrik carried the team but he's a part of the team. The Rangers, as a collective, were one goal away from beating arguably the league's biggest offensive powerhouse and advancing to the second round. Since then we've trimmed some fat, added a few guys who can throw hits as well as punches and our young core is getting better every single year. Yet somehow we are automatically going to get eliminated first round. I'm going to organize a crow buffet for the day that the guys make the second round this year and all of the tankers and sellers are invited.

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Old
03-03-2010, 09:44 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
You're giving individual instances which are the exceptions. Believe me, I've done statistical analysis of the draft. The success rate in the 1st round is about 54%. In the second round it drops to somewhere between 18-22%. There is definitely a difference.

And once again, the difference between the 6th pick and 12th pick in an individual draft is negligible, but the the 5-10 pick difference over the course of 3 draft years is far from negligible.
I firmly disagree with that. Let's take the drafts in the 90s and I'm going to consider anything over 300 games to be an NHL career. That even includes people like Daigle, who were considered busts, but played a significant number of games.

1st 10/10
2nd 10/10
3rd 10/10
4th 7/10
5th 9/10
6th 5/10
7th 6/10
8th 7/10
9th 6/10
10th: 7/10
11th: 7/10
12th: 7/10
13th: 8/10
14th: 6/10
15th: 3/10
16th: 4/10
17th: 4/10
18th: 6/10
19th: 5/10
20th: 6/10

Outside of the top 5 picks, the odds aren't really significantly greater for picking in slots 6-20.

These aren't individual numbers, these are from an entire decade. I just don't buy your argument.

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Old
03-03-2010, 09:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Im confused...Jokinen sucks and is a "loser" but someone should give us a second round pick for him at ~5 million dollars?
He's an unrestricted free agent after the season, and he's been traded 5 times in his career. He wouldn't be the first guy with a bad reputation (and one that is deserved) to get another chance somewhere.

Quote:
I fall into the "happy nothing happened today" camp. I think its delusional to think that this team was going to be able to move anyone for anything serious. Jokinen is not ever going to get a second round pick. Prospal might, and then what? We don't make the playoffs this year and we get a pick that we can redeem for a player who may or may not even play in this league...what a steal.
A year ago, when he had a year left on his contract, Jokinen got a first round pick and more, but now he can't get a second in a year when Eric Belanger and Raffi Torres got seconds? I don't agree at all. We may not make the playoffs anyway, but a second round pick gives a team with absolutely no top end talent in it's system another chance at drafting someone that could be top end. To me, that is worth a lot more than one round of playoff hockey. At least when the team in question doesn't have much of a chance of winning that round.

Quote:
I'd rather watch playoff hockey then know we have 2 second round picks. You can think that it would make some magical difference for this team, but it won't. It just won't. For every Pittsburgh there's a Florida. For every steal in the second round there are numerous busts.
Yes, there is a Florida, who traded Roberto Luongo away for nothing and didn't trade Jay Bouwmeester when his value was at it's highest. "It won't, it just won't." Sound logic. But that one round of playoff hockey will be enormous. It will, it just will.

Quote:
I feel like I'm listening to kids driving Lexus' complain about how their friend next door has a Ferrari. "We never make it to the finals, we're in a cycle of mediocrity, etc." Are we? You realize that only 2 of 30 teams make the finals, right? There are far worse things than making the playoffs every year. We lost to the Caps in 7 games. Yeah, Henrik carried the team but he's a part of the team. The Rangers, as a collective, were one goal away from beating arguably the league's biggest offensive powerhouse and advancing to the second round. Since then we've trimmed some fat, added a few guys who can throw hits as well as punches and our young core is getting better every single year. Yet somehow we are automatically going to get eliminated first round. I'm going to organize a crow buffet for the day that the guys make the second round this year and all of the tankers and sellers are invited.
Yeah, that round of playoff hockey last year was awesome to watch. What was it you enjoyed the most, that the team we were playing against barely showed up to play, or that our team was still outplayed almost the entire series? But, surely, that experience has changed our players dramatically. After all, we're having a much better season this year than last after that valuable playoff experience. But we've "trimmed the fat" and added a few guys that can hit and throw punches. Well, it's not as good as adding talent and skill, but it's something, right? Our young core is getting better. Too bad it still pales to the young cores of the best teams in the league, like Chicago and Washington and Pittsburgh and Los Angeles, but hey, at least it's something.

That's the post-lockout New York Rangers for you. "Hey, at least it's something."

Pray tell, what are you going to do when they don't win a thing? Or how about in three years, when the team is in more or less the same predicament it is now (which also happens to be the same predicament it was in three years ago, too)?

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03-03-2010, 09:56 PM
  #91
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I'm sorry but by your logic most teams in the league should not care about makong moves or winning games unless you win the Cup? Seriously this is non-sense there is something to be said about a team who makes the play-offs primarily in the West being that it is so challenging to do. So hey you make the play-offs or a second round regardless of the ticket sales it is an accomplsihment esepecially for teams not expecting to win the Cup. Remember only 1 team win out of 30. Anyway ya we made no move, and i honestly am not to dissapointed, by the good game we put together last night.

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03-03-2010, 10:00 PM
  #92
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Sting, I'm not entirely sure you get how this works. Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh could rebuild FAST due to getting high draft picks. The level of young talent they have didn't need a lot of development time. The Rangers are forced to rebuild slower due to NOT getting high draft picks. The level of young talent we have needs a lot of development time, especially considering that the larger portion of our young talent is on the backend.

Am I satisfied with mediocrity? No, but neither am I unable to look at this logically and realistically. You cannot compare the way this team has been built to Chicago, etc. It's apples to orange in approach.


Last edited by Tawnos: 03-03-2010 at 10:06 PM.
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Old
03-03-2010, 10:01 PM
  #93
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I'm sorry but by your logic most teams in the league should not care about makong moves or winning games unless you win the Cup? Seriously this is non-sense there is something to be said about a team who makes the play-offs primarily in the West being that it is so challenging to do. So hey you make the play-offs or a second round regardless of the ticket sales it is an accomplsihment esepecially for teams not expecting to win the Cup. Remember only 1 team win out of 30. Anyway ya we made no move, and i honestly am not to dissapointed, by the good game we put together last night.
I never, ever said that. Those are the words that people who disagree with me put in my mouth.

That isn't my point at all. Only 1 team wins, but there isn't just one good team. There are several. The Rangers are not among them. They haven't been among them for years. They have more in common with the worst teams in the league than they do with the best. The best teams, which are likely the teams the Rangers would have to play in the first round of the playoffs IF they even get in, improved themselves significantly.

It isn't as if the Rangers are a team that has been rebuilding the right way and are now on the precipice of making the playoffs and need it to take that next step. The Rangers aren't taking any steps. They're not going anywhere. It's a stagnant franchise every year, and until sacrifices are made to bring in significant young talent, it's going to remain that way.

And making the playoffs isn't much of an accomplishment. More than half of the teams in the league make the playoffs.

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03-03-2010, 10:07 PM
  #94
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The only move I would have made was move Olli for a pick.. other than that I think staying put was a good idea IMO. I'd rather be loyal to Prospal and bring him back next year easily. No gain and no loss in these moves

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03-03-2010, 10:13 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Sting, I'm not entirely sure you get how this works. Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh could rebuild FAST due to getting high draft picks. The level of young talent they have didn't need a lot of development time. The Rangers are forced to rebuild slower due to NOT getting high draft picks. The level of young talent we have needs a lot of development time, especially considering that the larger portion of our young talent is on the backend.
Sorry, but that might be the most ridiculous sentence of the day. We're forced? The only thing that forces us not to get high draft pick is the team's eternal refusal to do what is necessary to get them. Like trading away players that, at best, MAY get us one playoff round of hockey and aren't at all a part of our future.

I think you're the one that seems to be confused. You said it yourself: we don't get high draft picks. So what does it matter how much time our young talent needs to develop? The problem is we don't have the young talent necessary. Top end talent. We don't have that. I don't see a bonafide number one center in our system, I don't see a bonafide number one defenseman in our system. At best, I see one potential first line winger in our system in Kreider, and the first-line part is still very much in question.

Quote:
Am I satisfied with mediocrity? No, but neither am I unable to look at this logically and realistically. You cannot compare the way this team has been built to Chicago, etc. It's apples to oranges.
No, it's two NHL teams. The comparison is very simple. One team was built the right way, more or less, and the other was built with no plan, no foresight, and no desire or motivation to make any sort of progress.

One team sucked and got high draft picks that turned into superstar players, and the other team stocks up on role players and washed up veterans every single season to ensure another meaningless round of playoff hockey and a mid-round draft pick.

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03-03-2010, 10:23 PM
  #96
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I completely disagree with your assessment and let's leave it at that.

What do you say to the fact that if you strip away all the veterans who make us so mediocre, that still doesn't guarantee much? It's sort of like the Panthers early in the 00s. They had Luongo, but still got 3 top 5 picks in a row. Weiss, Horton and Bouwmeester was not enough to make Florida a legit team. In many ways, because of Luongo, they missed out on Nash, Spezza, Kovalchuk and Staal. How different would the Panthers be if they got just one of those? With Lundqvist, we could VERY easily be in the same boat even if we were one of the worst teams in the league.

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03-03-2010, 10:37 PM
  #97
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My disappointment is that they didn't trade Prospal.

I understand not moving Olli - his contract makes him hard to move and, conversely, makes me happy to have him coming off the books this summer.

I understand not moving Girardi - he's a good young player and we control his rights for several years ahead, despite the fact that he's about to be an RFA. He's still a good chip to use this offseason and in fact may be more valuable then when the cap isn't such a constraining factor.

But Vinny should have been traded. His unique combination of production and low cap hit make him uniquely valuable THIS YEAR to a (real) playoff team. He should have at the very least garnered a 2nd and a good prospect and, given the prices we saw for other rentals, I still believe that we could have gotten a 1st for him. It's a wasted opportunity to move a guy who will have no bearing on the future of the team in two months (at least I HOPE not given what we've seen comes from signing over 35 players) in exchange for a substantial return.

And to top it all off, I doubt it would have had much impact on the team's playoff chances anyway. If we're going to make REAL noise, it'll be about Dubi and Cally and MDZ and Gilroy stepping up. Two months of Vinny Prospal is worth NO MORE than the difference between one playoff win vs. Pittsburgh and two playoff wins vs. Pittsburgh.

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03-03-2010, 10:59 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I completely disagree with your assessment and let's leave it at that.

What do you say to the fact that if you strip away all the veterans who make us so mediocre, that still doesn't guarantee much? It's sort of like the Panthers early in the 00s. They had Luongo, but still got 3 top 5 picks in a row. Weiss, Horton and Bouwmeester was not enough to make Florida a legit team. In many ways, because of Luongo, they missed out on Nash, Spezza, Kovalchuk and Staal. How different would the Panthers be if they got just one of those? With Lundqvist, we could VERY easily be in the same boat even if we were one of the worst teams in the league.
First of all, the Panthers drafted horribly for years, especially once Mike Keenan got to town. Taticek, Globke, Krajicek, Watson, Stewart, Kreps, Meyer, Shantz, McArdle, Olesz, Plante. Those are all first or second round selections that have amounted to jack squat, and that's just in the span of 2002-2005/6. If they got just TWO, or even ONE good offensive player out of that group, they'd be a playoff team right now.

Then the genius that is Keenan traded Luongo, one of the best goalies in the league, for scraps. To replace Luongo, the Panthers later traded a first and a second for Vokoun, who is worse than Luongo. Luongo was traded when Weiss and Horton were just starting their NHL careers on a team that had absolutely nothing offensively aside from them and Jokinen, who I believe is second only to Scott Gomez in the high talent, embarrassingly low hockey IQ department in this league.

Then, they didn't trade Bouwmeester when his value was at it's highest, which totally screwed them over.

Now, if we're to believe that the Rangers have been drafting well the last few years (and I believe they have drafted well, they just haven't been in a position to draft high enough to get the talent they need), then we should be confident that if we did have those high picks, we wouldn't mess them up.

I'm willing to take the chance that we wouldn't mess those picks up because I don't see any other way out of this scenario. This team is bad, and it will continue to be bad, or at best average, because there simply aren't any great players coming up. It's great that we have a lot of good, solid prospects, but that is not enough in this league. You need big time offensive talent.

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03-03-2010, 11:07 PM
  #99
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we made our move... just earlier

Jokinen

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03-03-2010, 11:11 PM
  #100
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 9,960
vCash: 50
I was just hoping he would sure up our defense.

Btw, any one know why Fly is no longer a mod?

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