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Old
03-04-2010, 08:57 AM
  #26
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The chips are all still in the stack on Sather's side of the table. We didn't screw with the life of our assistant captain who wants to stay here with Torts, nor the guys we just traded for, by sending them off for some underpayment draft pick. The good young players we would have considered aquiring in a package trade were not traded anywhere else either. The price was obviously too high. This is a team with it's sights set on long term improvement and not quick fixes. Give Sather and Dolan some credit when they get it right. Could just be we want Prospal and the Joker back. They will be free to do what they want. Why burn bridges? I get the feeling that the haters are ticked that they don't have something more credible to bash with. We did no wrong yesterday. Quite the contrary, in fact. Try rooting for Philly which chose to ride out the season with Leighton, the five hole, in goal. DUH!!

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03-04-2010, 09:04 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Blueblood 2 View Post
The chips are all still all in the stack on Sather's side of the table. We didn't screw with the life of our assistant captain who wants to stay here with Torts, nor the guys we just traded for, by sending them off for some underpayment draft pick. The good young players we would have considered aquiring in a package trade were not traded anywhere else either. The price was obviously too high. This is a team with it's sights set on long term improvement and not quick fixes. Give Sather and Dolan some credit when they get it right. Could just be we want Prospal and the Joker back. They will be free to do what they want. Why burn bridges? I get the feeling that the haters are ticked that they don't have something more credible to bash with. We did no wrong yesterday. Quite the contrary, in fact. Try rooting for Philly which chose to ride out the season with Leighton in goal. DUH!!
Agreed. You look at some of the teams that should've made trades yesterday and definitely needed to...the rangers werent one of those teams. While I loved hearing the "rumors" about Jack Johnson and David Backes, I am very happy with sather not making a trade just for the sake of making a trade.

Yes we held onto Prospal and Jokinen and I know many wanted to trade them off, especially seeing how Grebeshkov netted a 2nd round pick somehow. However, there is no guarantee that means we would've gotten a 1st round pick. Prospal made it pretty clear that he wanted to stay and he has been outstanding for us this year so yeah why burn that bridge? And as for Jokinen, he has played well, but the other problem is his contract and maybe most team just wouldnt be able to fit that contract under their cap. I'd rather keep him and his expiring contract and have all that money to spend in the offseason.

I think sather did a good job. He left the team the way it is and im fine with that. I dont believe he is done though. I could definitely see him looking to trade Roszival at the Draft in Los Angeles.

Take a deep breath and relax.

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03-04-2010, 09:04 AM
  #28
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I agreed with you right up to this point. It bugs me because itís so damn passive. Youíre knocking fans (who Iíll admit can be very melodramatic/irrational) for wanting more from this franchise. After 10 seasons (hell, after 5 seasons post-lockout), is the idea that the they should be more than a bubble team the worst thing in the world? Is not being satisfied with mediocrity the worst thing in the world? How can you look at this franchise, historically, and come away thinking that being stuck in mediocrity is a farce? The Rangers have made mediocrity an art form. And the organizational trend from 1926 Ė Present remains unchanged. High-priced talent, minimal return.
I'm happy we did agree on somethings at least

With our points of contention, you're characterizing my argument. I don't say that it's impossible to be mediocre for an extended period of time, I dispute the idea that mediocrity is some trap that forces you to take a step back before moving forwards again. You don't always need to take a step back before taking a step forwards. Sometimes you can just take a step forwards after going laterally for a little bit.

For that time you mention it wasn't all first round exits. We took some playoff runs, we missed some playoffs.

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03-04-2010, 09:08 AM
  #29
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Honestly we're handcuffed until we drop Drury and Redden so tanking really doesn't help us out too much. I'd rather make the playoffs for the next two years and then actually make a push at being a contender when we'll have the open cap space to do so. Would it help to stockpile young talent? Probably but it's not a total win no matter what we do. The difference between getting the 5th pick and the 14th pick really isn't that high as far as getting a decent player. It really comes down to scouting more than anything else. The percentage of getting a good player is certainly higher early on but it's no sure deal. Establishing ourselves as a perennial playoff team while continuing to make smart moves is a business plan that works short-term and long-term. Prospal is a major part of our team right now. Tanking might help but, as long as we make smart moves, we'll be fine. Sather's tenure has been pretty garbage but, from comparing what the roster looked like at the end of last year to how it looks now, we've only improved.

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03-04-2010, 09:10 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You ready for this one, crossbar? I agree.

Prospal, Jokinen, and, to a lesser extent, Girardi really shouldnt be viewed as longterm solutions for this franchise. Im willing to bet all 3 could have been unloaded for 3 additional picks in the top 100 for the 2010 draft.

But you just have to realize that playoff revenue is the determining factor, and this organization is never going to place the importantance of a longterm vision, over the prospect of a modest short-term gain, which in this case will be getting manhandled by one of the top seeds in the playoffs. But hey, if Dolan gets to open the gates at MSG 2 or 3 more times, it all seems to be worth it apparently.

Sather, in his defense, has not let this mandate force him to trade away prospects over the last several years. This sort of philosophy might work in the future when we rid ourselves of the cap choking contracts of Drury and Redden. Most of us realize we wont be true contenders until this happens, and for now, we should be acquiring as many assets as humanly possible.

Thank you!
While I would like to see Prospal, Joker & any other asset not integral to the core, jettisoned - You had to know it was never going to happen. Not with the prospect of playoff $ gates & Dolan hovering above Slats.

Again, not necessarily how I'd go about it...but I understand fully well why they weren't 'sellers'. It's frustrating but it won't change w/ this regime.

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03-04-2010, 09:11 AM
  #31
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If you're a franchise as prestigious as the Rangers, you don't go firesale when you're on the brink of the playoffs.

And to argue that not selling prospal is going to be the downfall of our prospect core is ridiculous. We're pretty well off in that department and we've been drafting well, even outside of the first round.

I've argued this before that some people seem to not get that mediocrity isn't the worst position you can be in. You can be perpetually bad. This idea that the worst thing in the world is to make the playoffs each year as a lower seed is crazy.

Also with mediocrity again, it's perfectly legal in the NHL to go from mediocre to elite. This "stuck in mediocrity" notion is a farce.
I think you have the wrong word there. A franchise with a tradition? OK, Ill give you that. But prestigious insinuates some kind of benchmark, and unless you consider 1 cup in 70 years to be a success, prestigious is not the word I'd use to describe the New York Rangers organization.

But you got one thing right. We sure are mediocre, and have been for the majority of these last 70 years. You just seem to think we are on the brink of being something great, with really no evidence whatsoever to back it up. Maybe the "fly by the seat of our pants" philosophy will net a great season or two at some point, but most of us would like to see some sort of longterm vision put in place. That how you go from mediocre to good, instead of just hoping for the transformation to take place

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03-04-2010, 09:12 AM
  #32
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Agreed. You look at some of the teams that should've made trades yesterday and definitely needed to...the rangers werent one of those teams. While I loved hearing the "rumors" about Jack Johnson and David Backes, I am very happy with sather not making a trade just for the sake of making a trade.

Yes we held onto Prospal and Jokinen and I know many wanted to trade them off, especially seeing how Grebeshkov netted a 2nd round pick somehow. However, there is no guarantee that means we would've gotten a 1st round pick. Prospal made it pretty clear that he wanted to stay and he has been outstanding for us this year so yeah why burn that bridge? And as for Jokinen, he has played well, but the other problem is his contract and maybe most team just wouldnt be able to fit that contract under their cap. I'd rather keep him and his expiring contract and have all that money to spend in the offseason.

I think sather did a good job. He left the team the way it is and im fine with that. I dont believe he is done though. I could definitely see him looking to trade Roszival at the Draft in Los Angeles.

Take a deep breath and relax.
any team looking to go deep would seem to have atleast considered prospal, joker or rozy ( whos playing so much better lately blah blah blah) for rentals. im thinking, and maybe im wrong, we could have got back a 2nd or 3rd rounder for those 3, but......

winning the last 3 games gave the idiots running this organization the confidence that "were still in it" and thus perhaps those 3 were pulled off the market. if true, thats a huge miscalculation and would appear then that the goal is not winning persay, but just making it to the playoffs.

if so, and given that gaby is still hurt and no idea when hes coming back, then were going to battle with the same team that has underperformed all season and thus
count me as one of those who say no thanks to that as we head down the stretch and into a 1st round playoff sweep.

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03-04-2010, 09:14 AM
  #33
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what did frustrate me was seeing that Lisin was waived... I still miss Korpikoski
Both Lisin and Voros cleared waivers. Neither has been sent down, nor are they likely to be. Both will still continue to play for the Rangers this season.

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03-04-2010, 09:21 AM
  #34
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For that time you mention it wasn't all first round exits. We took some playoff runs, we missed some playoffs.
I've got a question for you, for everyone really. We are close to the playoffs and playing pretty well. It should have been obvious to any rational person that Sather wasn't going to sell. But even Sather has sold before. Sometimes the situation leaves you with no other choice.

So my question is, what is the tipping point?

Edmonton clearly has no chance at the playoffs and could only help themselves by selling. But what of Carolina? Sure, they are quite a ways back still, but they were charging hard and playing very well before the break. It could be argued that they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs, yet they chose to sell.

So what is the cutoff in your mind? How bad does the team have to be before you consider selling to be the proper move?

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03-04-2010, 09:21 AM
  #35
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If you want to ignore facts and rationality I won't come along for the ride.
This team is one Henrik Lundqvist groin pull from being amongst the worst of the worst in the NHL. Youre trying to create a false sense that this team is mediocre and trending upward, which hasnt been the case since about 2007.

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03-04-2010, 09:22 AM
  #36
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any team looking to go deep would seem to have atleast considered prospal, joker or rozy ( whos playing so much better lately blah blah blah) for rentals. im thinking, and maybe im wrong, we could have got back a 2nd or 3rd rounder for those 3, but......
why would rozy be considered a rental as he is not pending any form of free agency?

players like rozy would typically be traded FOR rentals or in the offseason...wouldn't you think?

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03-04-2010, 09:23 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
any team looking to go deep would seem to have atleast considered prospal, joker or rozy ( whos playing so much better lately blah blah blah) for rentals. im thinking, and maybe im wrong, we could have got back a 2nd or 3rd rounder for those 3, but......

winning the last 3 games gave the idiots running this organization the confidence that "were still in it" and thus perhaps those 3 were pulled off the market. if true, thats a huge miscalculation and would appear then that the goal is not winning persay, but just making it to the playoffs.

if so, and given that gaby is still hurt and no idea when hes coming back, then were going to battle with the same team that has underperformed all season and thus
count me as one of those who say no thanks to that as we head down the stretch and into a 1st round playoff sweep.
Would you be happy if we were able to get a 2nd/3rd round pick prior to the draft for the negotiating rights for jokinen?

We still make the playoff run and get the asset too.

No one was handing out first round picks or I would have agreed with you on the selling part.

LGR!!!

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03-04-2010, 09:28 AM
  #38
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Would you be happy if we were able to get a 2nd/3rd round pick prior to the draft for the negotiating rights for jokinen?

We still make the playoff run and get the asset too.
No one is giving us anything for his UFA rights. He isn't Bowmeester.

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03-04-2010, 09:28 AM
  #39
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why would rozy be considered a rental as he is not pending any form of free agency?

players like rozy would typically be traded FOR rentals or in the offseason...wouldn't you think?
yeah rental was for viny and joker.

rozy would have been a guy we would have moved for a pick.

rozy for a 2nd or 3rd rounder doesnt seem out of the realm does it ?

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03-04-2010, 09:29 AM
  #40
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I've got a question for you, for everyone really. We are close to the playoffs and playing pretty well. It should have been obvious to any rational person that Sather wasn't going to sell. But even Sather has sold before. Sometimes the situation leaves you with no other choice.

So my question is, what is the tipping point?

Edmonton clearly has no chance at the playoffs and could only help themselves by selling. But what of Carolina? Sure, they are quite a ways back still, but they were charging hard and playing very well before the break. It could be argued that they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs, yet they chose to sell.

So what is the cutoff in your mind? How bad does the team have to be before you consider selling to be the proper move?
If people have a problem with the Rangers not selling, their argument is "We have no chance of winning the Cup, so what's the point of sneaking into the Playoffs for a first round exit?".

That's fine. I agree. What's the point?

But then the cut-off should be at the 5th seed. Any team 6th-15th should be sellers at the deadline. Why? Because no team lower than than the 1995 Devils (5th seed) has ever won the Stanley Cup.

The problem is owners and fans want different things. Fans want a shot at the Cup. Owners want revenue. You really think Dolan is going to let Sather sell assets at the deadline, drop right out of the playoff race, and forgo ticket sales, ratings, and concessions for the last 20 games and potentially first round of the playoffs for what...some 17 year old kid he's probably never heard of? Not gunna happen.

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03-04-2010, 09:32 AM
  #41
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I'm happy we did agree on somethings at least
Well, itís not so hard to fathom considering we all want the same thing for this team. I think that gets lost in a lot of the argument. How we can get to that goal is where everyone starts to differ.


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With our points of contention, you're characterizing my argument. I don't say that it's impossible to be mediocre for an extended period of time, I dispute the idea that mediocrity is some trap that forces you to take a step back before moving forwards again. You don't always need to take a step back before taking a step forwards. Sometimes you can just take a step forwards after going laterally for a little bit.
Well, sometime ideas are lost in the translation. What was before me was a counterargument that being mediocre shouldnít be considered the worst thing in the world, nor should making the POís as a lower season year after year. I donít typically take every word literally, but it was tough not to in your initial response to offdacrossbar. It seemed like an attack against fans wanting moreÖwhich I thought was silly. However, in light of your clarification I stand corrected 


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For that time you mention it wasn't all first round exits. We took some playoff runs, we missed some playoffs.
Theyíve missed the playoffs 30 times in 86 years. Also, they donít typically make it out of the 2nd round. They do so occasionally, but in Rangersland thatís more an anomaly than a sign of progress, hehehe. They have 4 Cups, 1 Conference Championship, 5 division Championships. If thatís not mediocrity, I donít know what it is.

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03-04-2010, 09:32 AM
  #42
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Would you be happy if we were able to get a 2nd/3rd round pick prior to the draft for the negotiating rights for jokinen?

We still make the playoff run and get the asset too.

No one was handing out first round picks or I would have agreed with you on the selling part.

LGR!!!
his value is highest right now for a team looking to add that one player who can help them win a playoff series. now is the time he makes the biggest impact for ateam and thus they would part with something of value to get him.

during the off season there isnt the immediate need so the value would be diminished and he can be dealt with directly on contract as he is a fa.

both prospal and joker would have, had then not been pulled back from the market by the cigar smoking clown, brought a pair of 2nds. but that wasnt the goal yesterday, the goal was to make the playoffs. period.

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03-04-2010, 09:35 AM
  #43
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yeah rental was for viny and joker.

rozy would have been a guy we would have moved for a pick.

rozy for a 2nd or 3rd rounder doesnt seem out of the realm does it ?
i would think it does

i highly doubt someone takes that salary without salary coming back

and a 3rd rounder for Rosi is a terrible trade, even you should be able to see that through your hate glasses....he's been playing like our 2nd best dman for a while now

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03-04-2010, 09:36 AM
  #44
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No one is giving us anything for his UFA rights. He isn't Bowmeester.
But why is it reasonable to expect anyone to give up anything of value for him when 1) we got him for Kotalik and Higgins and 2) he's got a cap hit of $5.25 million?

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03-04-2010, 09:41 AM
  #45
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i would think it does

i highly doubt someone takes that salary without salary coming back

and a 3rd rounder for Rosi is a terrible trade, even you should be able to see that through your hate glasses....he's been playing like our 2nd best dman for a while now
rozy has been bad for 2 years now. i mean real bad. hes been less bad for 4 weeks. i havent forgotten him falling down, shying away from contact, throwing passes up the middle, refusing to shoot, and skating in mudd. have you ?

anyone here who doesnt believe this team would be better without rozy and his contract going forward just doesnt get it. is he a difference maker ? can he really do anything other than log 20 minutes of ice?

hes nothing we should be considering long term. thats my point. he needs to go.

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03-04-2010, 09:43 AM
  #46
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and a 3rd rounder for Rosi is a terrible trade, even you should be able to see that through your hate glasses....he's been playing like our 2nd best dman for a while now
Absolutely. Rozi has somehow mutated into a competent defender, don't ask how or why but he has. Worth much more than a mere crapshoot 2nd rounder now, especially the way his contract is structured and the term left. Every day he stays he becomes more valuable, in a way, as he gets cheaper and cheaper for other GM's to consider.

Sather did the right thing yesterday. If we lost Joker or Prospal, how could we watch this team? We'd be a bad AHL franchise until Gabby got back and then we'd be a bad AHL franchise with Gabby.

The kids are developing. The vets we've discussed to trade (Joker, Rozi, Prospal) are helping us right now. They've got energy and a will to win. The other two stiffs, Redden and Drury, will be around because they can't be moved. At least Drury "tries" and "hustles". Redden? Ugh.

Beyond this, I don't know what some people want from this team right now.

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03-04-2010, 09:43 AM
  #47
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If people have a problem with the Rangers not selling, their argument is "We have no chance of winning the Cup, so what's the point of sneaking into the Playoffs for a first round exit?".

That's fine. I agree. What's the point?

But then the cut-off should be at the 5th seed. Any team 6th-15th should be sellers at the deadline. Why? Because no team lower than than the 1995 Devils (5th seed) has ever won the Stanley Cup.

The problem is owners and fans want different things. Fans want a shot at the Cup. Owners want revenue. You really think Dolan is going to let Sather sell assets at the deadline, drop right out of the playoff race, and forgo ticket sales, ratings, and concessions for the last 20 games and potentially first round of the playoffs for what...some 17 year old kid he's probably never heard of? Not gunna happen.
So when we were in game 5 against Buffalo a few years ago, only seconds away from taking the series lead (prior to Drury's goal), you were upset that we didn't sell? We were, after all, only a 6th seed.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree to what you are saying. The playoffs have value, regardless of whether we win the cup or not. And not just to Dolan, but to the fans as well, if for no other reason than entertainment. Maybe you choose to forget the 7 straight years where we missed the playoffs, but I don't.

In no way am I saying that I am content with where we are, and I fully understand that sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward. But to say that every team from the 5th seed down should be selling is ridiculous. The 5th seed now could be the 1st seed by the end of the year, with the right moves.

Look at Pittsburgh last year. If they had followed your logic, they would have sold and never won the cup. They finished in 4th place in the conference, but were certainly worse than that at the trade deadline.

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03-04-2010, 09:45 AM
  #48
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But why is it reasonable to expect anyone to give up anything of value for him when 1) we got him for Kotalik and Higgins and 2) he's got a cap hit of $5.25 million?
Speaking of our recent departures, Calgary tried to dump Kotalik yesterday with zero takers. Poor Higgins has had about twenty shots on goal since leaving, with nothing to show for it. Last night, he had an open net with the goalie sprawled out like a fish, and his stick broke on the shot! The Flames announcers are now feeling bad for the guy, too.

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03-04-2010, 09:46 AM
  #49
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rozy has been bad for 2 years now. i mean real bad. hes been less bad for 4 weeks. i havent forgotten him falling down, shying away from contact, throwing passes up the middle, refusing to shoot, and skating in mudd. have you ?

anyone here who doesnt believe this team would be better without rozy and his contract going forward just doesnt get it. is he a difference maker ? can he really do anything other than log 20 minutes of ice?

hes nothing we should be considering long term. thats my point. he needs to go.
Rozsival's contract would be INFINITELY easier to swallow if it was compounded by much worse contracts like Drury and Redden.

Also, I've been trying to tell you for a long time now that logging 20 minutes a night as a defenseman in the NHL is not an easy thing to do. Roszival has been doing it for years now under different coaches, so it might be time for you to admit that hes doing at least a few things right. Either you dont understand that, or youre just being ignorant, either way youre the one that just doesnt get it in this case.

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03-04-2010, 09:46 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think you have the wrong word there. A franchise with a tradition? OK, Ill give you that. But prestigious insinuates some kind of benchmark, and unless you consider 1 cup in 70 years to be a success, prestigious is not the word I'd use to describe the New York Rangers organization.

But you got one thing right. We sure are mediocre, and have been for the majority of these last 70 years. You just seem to think we are on the brink of being something great, with really no evidence whatsoever to back it up. Maybe the "fly by the seat of our pants" philosophy will net a great season or two at some point, but most of us would like to see some sort of longterm vision put in place. That how you go from mediocre to good, instead of just hoping for the transformation to take place
Young talent. We have an elite group of prospects who Sather has shown he's not not willing to part with, and we have a ton of young talent on the NHL squad already. Add in with that a hart candidate in Gaborik, and a vezina candidate in Lundqvist and we're looking real good going forwards.

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