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Old
03-04-2010, 09:49 AM
  #51
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I've got a question for you, for everyone really. We are close to the playoffs and playing pretty well. It should have been obvious to any rational person that Sather wasn't going to sell. But even Sather has sold before. Sometimes the situation leaves you with no other choice.

So my question is, what is the tipping point?

Edmonton clearly has no chance at the playoffs and could only help themselves by selling. But what of Carolina? Sure, they are quite a ways back still, but they were charging hard and playing very well before the break. It could be argued that they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs, yet they chose to sell.

So what is the cutoff in your mind? How bad does the team have to be before you consider selling to be the proper move?
It really depends on the situation. Where you expected your team to be, what you have available, where you are in the standings, how far out you are and what is available in return.

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03-04-2010, 09:51 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
But why is it reasonable to expect anyone to give up anything of value for him when 1) we got him for Kotalik and Higgins and 2) he's got a cap hit of $5.25 million?
That was never my argument, but I'll run with it if you want.

If we had dealt Jokinen, most likely a player would have had to come back to fit Jokinen under the other team's cap.

Why would another team trade for him? Why does any team trade for players at the deadline? Because he can help them get into the playoffs and/or during the playoffs.

Jokinen at the draft has 0 value. He will play 0 games for his new team before becoming UFA. The only advantage his new team gets is 1st negotiating rights. Very few players have ever been traded in that scenario. Bowmeester is the only one who even comes to mind. Jokinen just isn't that highly sought after that teams will trade assets in order to negotiate with him before everyone else.

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03-04-2010, 09:52 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
So when we were in game 5 against Buffalo a few years ago, only seconds away from taking the series lead (prior to Drury's goal), you were upset that we didn't sell? We were, after all, only a 6th seed.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree to what you are saying. The playoffs have value, regardless of whether we win the cup or not. And not just to Dolan, but to the fans as well, if for no other reason than entertainment. Maybe you choose to forget the 7 straight years where we missed the playoffs, but I don't.

In no way am I saying that I am content with where we are, and I fully understand that sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward. But to say that every team from the 5th seed down should be selling is ridiculous. The 5th seed now could be the 1st seed by the end of the year, with the right moves.

Look at Pittsburgh last year. If they had followed your logic, they would have sold and never won the cup. They finished in 4th place in the conference, but were certainly worse than that at the trade deadline.
Would you rather make the playoffs every year with a second round exit or make the playoffs once every 10 years and win the whole thing?

I love making the playoffs. I love the thrill and intensity of the game. But sometimes you have to see the forest from the trees, lose the battle to win the war, etc. We should have sold, but I understand why we didn't.

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03-04-2010, 09:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
This whole selling buisness is bananas. We are 1 point out of playoffs. Why would we get rid of prospal For a second in one of the weekest drafts in years?!? He is one of our best players, and he will come cheap. Where are you going to get a top 2 line guy with his skills and passion for that price? Joikenin, this guy loves to play for coaches that push him hard. Maybe playing for torts over the long term could re ignite his game. I still think he is a keeper for now. The problem is even if we did have a fire sale, were still to far in points to get a top 4 pick. If your not high in this draft, it's almost worthless. (you could wind up with a diamond in the Roth, but not with this organizations drafting skills. And yes I know about where lundqvist was drafted)

ps. Sorry for miss spells and spacing, typed this on phone during safety training at work.
I think we could beat NJ if they are the 1 and we are the 8... but that is just based on how we play them and our history of recent years...

having said that, I still think we suck.

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03-04-2010, 09:56 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
rozy has been bad for 2 years now. i mean real bad. hes been less bad for 4 weeks. i havent forgotten him falling down, shying away from contact, throwing passes up the middle, refusing to shoot, and skating in mudd. have you ?

anyone here who doesnt believe this team would be better without rozy and his contract going forward just doesnt get it. is he a difference maker ? can he really do anything other than log 20 minutes of ice?

hes nothing we should be considering long term. thats my point. he needs to go.
whatever chief....im not getting into this with you...i should have never taken the bait to begin with

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03-04-2010, 09:56 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
It really depends on the situation. Where you expected your team to be, what you have available, where you are in the standings, how far out you are and what is available in return.
Of course, but where is that line in the sand? When people first started talking about selling, we were trending downwards and were having a hell of a time even scoring a goal. How far out of a playoff position do we need to be before you will agree that selling is the proper course of action?

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03-04-2010, 09:57 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Young talent. We have an elite group of prospects who Sather has shown he's not not willing to part with, and we have a ton of young talent on the NHL squad already. Add in with that a hart candidate in Gaborik, and a vezina candidate in Lundqvist and we're looking real good going forwards.
Im very concerned that our prospect pool is a textbook case of quantity over quality, and Im pretty sure Im not the only one.

Wheres the bluechippers?

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03-04-2010, 10:02 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Would you rather make the playoffs every year with a second round exit or make the playoffs once every 10 years and win the whole thing?

I love making the playoffs. I love the thrill and intensity of the game. But sometimes you have to see the forest from the trees, lose the battle to win the war, etc. We should have sold, but I understand why we didn't.
I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed. Neither scenario that you represent is likely, nor are they the only scenarios possible. You've chosen 2 extremes when reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Both NJ and Detroit have managed to both make the playoffs consistently AND win cups. Atlanta has managed to make the playoffs once in 10 years, yet hasn't won a thing.

Pittburgh won the cup last year while being no better than a 6th seed at the time of the deadline. If they had sold like you suggest, they would not have won. So your argument is completely without merit.

I agree that there is a time when you must take a step back, but suggesting that a 5th place team should just "accept defeat" and get whatever they can for their UFAs is about the worst argument I've ever heard.

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03-04-2010, 10:06 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im very concerned that our prospect pool is a textbook case of quantity over quality, and Im pretty sure Im not the only one.

Wheres the bluechippers?
Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Grachev, MDZ, MCD, Sangs

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03-04-2010, 10:07 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
That was never my argument, but I'll run with it if you want.

If we had dealt Jokinen, most likely a player would have had to come back to fit Jokinen under the other team's cap.

Why would another team trade for him? Why does any team trade for players at the deadline? Because he can help them get into the playoffs and/or during the playoffs.

Jokinen at the draft has 0 value. He will play 0 games for his new team before becoming UFA. The only advantage his new team gets is 1st negotiating rights. Very few players have ever been traded in that scenario. Bowmeester is the only one who even comes to mind. Jokinen just isn't that highly sought after that teams will trade assets in order to negotiate with him before everyone else.
I'm not saying Jokinen has any value at the draft; I'm disputing the idea that there was a deal to be.had for Jokinen yesterday. Again, people have thrown out the idea that Jokinen could have brought back a 2nd with no strings attached. I cannot locate the team with both the need and the cap space to make a deal. A contract would have to be brought back. Sather finds a way to correct his mistakes, and allow for more cap flexibilty, but that should be jeopardized to a add a 2nd round pick?

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03-04-2010, 10:13 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed. Neither scenario that you represent is likely, nor are they the only scenarios possible. You've chosen 2 extremes when reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Both NJ and Detroit have managed to both make the playoffs consistently AND win cups. Atlanta has managed to make the playoffs once in 10 years, yet hasn't won a thing.

Pittburgh won the cup last year while being no better than a 6th seed at the time of the deadline. If they had sold like you suggest, they would not have won. So your argument is completely without merit.

I agree that there is a time when you must take a step back, but suggesting that a 5th place team should just "accept defeat" and get whatever they can for their UFAs is about the worst argument I've ever heard.
I only used those two extreme examples to make the point that winning the Cup is the ultimate goal, not making the playoffs, and that management should build teams with the Cup in mind, not to crawl into the playoffs.

And I do acknowledge that Pittsburgh was 6th at the deadline but surely you'll agree that their situation and ours are completely different. And no, I don't really think that every 5th seed, or 6th seed should be sellers at the deadline, just making the point that winning the Cup without winning the division or at least being a 4th seed is statistically impossible based on history.

At the end of the day, I wanted this team to sell because I don't think they have a prayer in hell of making noise. They've shown me nothing this season that indicates they can beat Pittsburgh or Washington in a 7 game series. That being said, I also understand that it would be poor business strategy on Dolan's part to allow Sather to sell when they're in a 20 game playoff race and have a realistic chance of getting a couple of home games in the first round.

So given the only two options Dolan gave him (buy or stand pat), Sather did the right thing.

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03-04-2010, 10:13 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed. Neither scenario that you represent is likely, nor are they the only scenarios possible. You've chosen 2 extremes when reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Both NJ and Detroit have managed to both make the playoffs consistently AND win cups. Atlanta has managed to make the playoffs once in 10 years, yet hasn't won a thing.

Pittburgh won the cup last year while being no better than a 6th seed at the time of the deadline. If they had sold like you suggest, they would not have won. So your argument is completely without merit.

I agree that there is a time when you must take a step back, but suggesting that a 5th place team should just "accept defeat" and get whatever they can for their UFAs is about the worst argument I've ever heard.
GAG, I'm having hard time trying to determine what your stance on yesterday is. You seem both disappointed and understanding of what took place yesterday.

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03-04-2010, 10:14 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Grachev, MDZ, MCD, Sangs
Which one of these guys is going to be an 80pt guy in the NHL?

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03-04-2010, 10:14 AM
  #64
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I cant bieleve some of you want to just give up on the year! Maybe thats part of posting on HF, everyone looks towards to future and value draft picks more than actual players. We have a legit shot at making the playoffs for the 5th Straight year. Yea we might get bounced in the 1st round or Gabby and Henrik could steal a round or 2. Once you get to the Dance you never know what could happen.

1 point out of a playoff spot selling is not an option for any team. To think the rangers would do that is unrealistic.

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03-04-2010, 10:15 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
rozy has been bad for 2 years now. i mean real bad. hes been less bad for 4 weeks. i havent forgotten him falling down, shying away from contact, throwing passes up the middle, refusing to shoot, and skating in mudd. have you ?

anyone here who doesnt believe this team would be better without rozy and his contract going forward just doesnt get it. is he a difference maker ? can he really do anything other than log 20 minutes of ice?

hes nothing we should be considering long term. thats my point. he needs to go.
I think you don't get it. Who the ******* would want him? Do you really believe the Rangers weren't trying to move him? NO ONE WANTS HIM.

He's played better, thank god, but not enough to warrant someone (anyone) picking up his deal. He's not a UFA at the end of the year. He's wouldn't be a rental. Sather was lucky enough to find someone stupid enough to take Kotalik this year. Be happy with that.

Some of you are really thick. No team sells when they're tied for a playoff spot, it's frakking ridiculous to even suggest. Maybe this kind of crap works in fantasy-land, but not in the real world where millions of dollars are at stake. Get real.

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03-04-2010, 10:17 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
slats made a huge mistake yesterday. he did not have a good day and we will pay for it in the future. we needed to sell whatever we could and improve our draft pick stock and our draft position.

no, he shouldnt have sold young assets for rentals, that was obviously not the play, but by not selling off guys who would seem to have had value he pretty much assured us of mediocrity. and that word is what defines this organization.

there is absolutely no reason why prospal is still on this team today. none. the only reason would be that there were no teams interested and i find that hard to believe. in fact, he should have been vigorously shopped along with joker, rozy and girardi. those were the 4 guys that should have been shopped and should have been moved. even if he needed to sweeten a deal with a prospect to rid us of rozy, he should have done so. all of them could have atleast brought us a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

winning those 2 games before the break and then scoring 4 in the 2nd in ott really messed stuff up. it allowed slats to get back to that "were still in it" mentality and thus, we end up with basically the same squad we had before the break. the same squad that will probably just miss the playoffs and thus assure us of another mid 1st rounder that will inevitably turn into the next "3rd line grinder type" that we seem to always have to many of.

nope, imo, slats skrewed the pooch yesterday and in doing so, we the fans get to be the pooch today.
Yes there is. We are tied for playoff spot.

It doesn't matter if the team may not be good enough to make a run, I don't believe in giving up the season if we still have a shot at the playoffs...

You never know what could happen. There may not be another Edmonton Oilers run for 20 years.. but with a world class goaltender, you don't throw away a playoff appearence for draft picks.

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03-04-2010, 10:17 AM
  #67
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Once you get to the Dance you never know what could happen.
I do. A 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seed wins the Cup.

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03-04-2010, 10:17 AM
  #68
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Which one of these guys is going to be an 80pt guy in the NHL?
Zach Parise isn't on pace to score 80 this season. Neither is Marleau. Think, maybe, you're asking for a bit much?

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03-04-2010, 10:18 AM
  #69
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I'm not saying Jokinen has any value at the draft; I'm disputing the idea that there was a deal to be.had for Jokinen yesterday. Again, people have thrown out the idea that Jokinen could have brought back a 2nd with no strings attached. I cannot locate the team with both the need and the cap space to make a deal. A contract would have to be brought back. Sather finds a way to correct his mistakes, and allow for more cap flexibilty, but that should be jeopardized to a add a 2nd round pick?
Oh, I agree with you. But Jokinen did have SOME value yesterday. I think expecting to get a 2nd for him straight up was unrealistic. The economics of the cap would likely preclude such a deal.

But that isn't to say that we couldn't have traded him for a cheaper pending-UFA and a pick. Unlikely perhaps, but possible.

In any event, while I was in the sell camp at one point this year, I found myself happy with the way yesterday unfolded. I like the way this team is playing right now and I feel we have a good shot to make the playoffs, but at the same time, I still feel that there was no move or set of moves that would have enabled us to seriously compete for the cup. So I'm glad that Sather did not squander any assets.

I will continue to root for this team to make the playoffs and if and when they do, I will root for them to win every game and prove me wrong. Because at the end of the day, winning is ALWAYS better than losing.

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03-04-2010, 10:19 AM
  #70
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Which one of these guys is going to be an 80pt guy in the NHL?
Yeah...not sure I would classify any of them as "elite". Surprises happen, but to say we have a core of ELITE prospects is stretching reality a bit. We have a good group, but as is always the case, there'll be a few booms and a whole lot of busts.

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03-04-2010, 10:20 AM
  #71
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Zach Parise isn't on pace to score 80 this season. Neither is Marleau. Think, maybe, you're asking for a bit much?
Zach Parise put up 94 points last year, and is a PPG player this year, on top of an incredible showing at the Olympics. I'm sorry, but I don't consider Anisimov, Grachev, or anyone else who projects to top out as a second line guy a "blue-chip prospect". They might surprise us and develop into one, and that would be great, but that's not "blue-chip".

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03-04-2010, 10:20 AM
  #72
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I do. A 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seed wins the Cup.
Ducks, Oilers are both lower seeded teams who made some noise in the playoffs. No they didnt win the cup but certainly made noise.

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03-04-2010, 10:22 AM
  #73
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Zach Parise put up 94 points last year, and is a PPG player this year, on top of an incredible showing at the Olympics. I'm sorry, but I don't consider Anisimov, Grachev, or anyone else who projects to top out as a second line guy a "blue-chip prospect".
Okay, but we have an elite 80+ point scorer in Gaborik for the next 4+ years. If Grachev, Kreider, Stepan, etc... develop into 40-60 point guys then we're certainly competitive. How many teams have two 80+ guys?

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03-04-2010, 10:24 AM
  #74
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Ducks, Oilers are both lower seeded teams who made some noise in the playoffs. No they didnt win the cup but certainly made noise.
So now the goal is to make noise in the playoffs? Look I'm not saying it's impossible to win the Cup as a 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th seed. Hell, I could win the lottery two days in a row. I'm just saying, based on history, the chances are so remote that there are better dividends paid by getting a top pick in the draft. Just my opinion, though.

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03-04-2010, 10:25 AM
  #75
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Ducks, Oilers are both lower seeded teams who made some noise in the playoffs. No they didnt win the cup but certainly made noise.
Not to mention the league is moving more and more towards parity. We took the Caps to 7 games. The 'Canes bounced the Devils. Boston didn't make the final. The Sharks bounced in the first round.

I'm not arguing that I think THIS team has a great shot, but this league is a lot closer from 1-8 than it used to be.

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