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Old
03-04-2010, 11:25 AM
  #76
Shadowtron
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Okay, but we have an elite 80+ point scorer in Gaborik for the next 4+ years. If Grachev, Kreider, Stepan, etc... develop into 40-60 point guys then we're certainly competitive. How many teams have two 80+ guys?
Not the point though.

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03-04-2010, 11:27 AM
  #77
frankthefrowner
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Not the point though.
Thats pretty convienent for your argument i must say.

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03-04-2010, 11:29 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
And no, I don't really think that every 5th seed, or 6th seed should be sellers at the deadline, just making the point that winning the Cup without winning the division or at least being a 4th seed is statistically impossible based on history.
Coming back from down 0-3 was statistically impossible based on history until the Red Sox did it against the Yankees in 2004. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done.

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At the end of the day, I wanted this team to sell because I don't think they have a prayer in hell of making noise. They've shown me nothing this season that indicates they can beat Pittsburgh or Washington in a 7 game series.
And I understand that. That's why I asked where the line is. Each of us is going to answer the question differently, but it's never really black and white for any of us. Remember how well we were playing at the end of the year in 2006-07? We were only a 6th seed, but we were playing so well down the stretch that we thought we had a chance against anyone. And in truth, we did. Buffalo was the best team in the conference and we were 7 seconds away from a possible upset.

So it isn't really fair to say that we have no chance if we don't finish in the top 4, but I understand feeling as if we have no chance against the best teams this year.

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That being said, I also understand that it would be poor business strategy on Dolan's part to allow Sather to sell when they're in a 20 game playoff race and have a realistic chance of getting a couple of home games in the first round.

So given the only two options Dolan gave him (buy or stand pat), Sather did the right thing.
That's really what I was getting at. There was no way they were going to sell given the position we are in, even if many of us feel that we have no chance at the cup. Given that, all we can do is continue to cheer for our team and hope that they can defy the odds.

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03-04-2010, 11:32 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
Thats pretty convienent for your argument i must say.
The argument is that we do not have ELITE prospects. How am I being convenienced by pointing out that someone is arguing a point that isn't there? It's great if they develop into 40pt players...does that make them elite prospects? No.

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03-04-2010, 11:32 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Okay, but we have an elite 80+ point scorer in Gaborik for the next 4+ years. If Grachev, Kreider, Stepan, etc... develop into 40-60 point guys then we're certainly competitive. How many teams have two 80+ guys?
2009 Pittsburgh Penguins
Evgeni Malkin - 113 points
Sidney Crosby - 103 points

2008 Detroit Red Wings
Pavel Datsyuk - 97 points
Henrik Zetterberg - 92 points

2007 Anaheim Ducks
Teemu Selanne - 94 points
Andy McDonald - 78 points

2006 Carolina Hurricanes
Eric Staal - 100 points
Justin Williams - 76 points
Cory Stillman - 76 points

What do all these teams have in common? They all won the Stanley Cup in the Salary Cap era.

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03-04-2010, 11:34 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Not the point though.
True story: Zach Parise had 32, 62, 65 in his first 3 years and has had one 80+ point season. Yes, he's up there and probably the best American born player playing right now. My point, to your point, is that 80+ point scorers are rare as hell especially if it's something you're looking for consistently. My point, further, is that what you're looking for is pretty lofty and fairly unrealistic.

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03-04-2010, 11:34 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Zach Parise put up 94 points last year, and is a PPG player this year, on top of an incredible showing at the Olympics. I'm sorry, but I don't consider Anisimov, Grachev, or anyone else who projects to top out as a second line guy a "blue-chip prospect". They might surprise us and develop into one, and that would be great, but that's not "blue-chip".
Was it known that players like Getzlaf and Richards were sure-fire 80 point players? Doug Weight and Tony Amonte were 2nd round picks. If Stepan and Kreider were to be become the equivalent of Weight and Amonte, would they not be legitimate front line players?

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03-04-2010, 11:34 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Yeah...not sure I would classify any of them as "elite". Surprises happen, but to say we have a core of ELITE prospects is stretching reality a bit. We have a good group, but as is always the case, there'll be a few booms and a whole lot of busts.

We have not been in a draft position to get a bonafied can't miss elite player. Our scouts were told to identify good second or third line prospects. They did their job well. Elite guys have to be found through free agency or trades, in this scenario. That is the price you pay for not "tanking" seasons. When a "potential" elite guy falls to us, we have shifted plans and made the right choice. DelZotto, Staal, Cherpanov, even Sanguinetti come to mind. Gordie and his staff have been very, very good!

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03-04-2010, 11:36 AM
  #84
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Fact is we have something alot of teams dont have, a superstar goaltender. As we have seen in the past a hot goalie can carry you pretty far. Im willing to see how this season turns out with guys like Prospal Girardi and Jok.

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03-04-2010, 11:36 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
True story: Zach Parise had 32, 62, 65 in his first 3 years and has had one 80+ point season. Yes, he's up there and probably the best American born player playing right now. My point, to your point, is that 80+ point scorers are rare as hell especially if it's something you're looking for consistently. My point, further, is that what you're looking for is pretty lofty and fairly unrealistic.
All I'm saying is that your definition of blue-chip prospect is different from mine. Grachev is probably going to top out at 60 points. Parise was doing that in his second season. They're not in the same league, and I consider Parise blue-chip.

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03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
  #86
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GAG, I'm having hard time trying to determine what your stance on yesterday is. You seem both disappointed and understanding of what took place yesterday.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. My initial post that you responded to was that Jokinen has no value at the draft. When you responded with "why would he have had any more value at the deadline?", I simply took that as the argument. I never meant to imply that I would have traded him.

A month ago, maybe I would have, but this team has been playing well as of late and are close to making the playoffs. All things considered, I'd still prefer to watch my team play playoff hockey. I would only advocate selling if I thought we didn't have a realistic shot at making the playoffs, which a month ago, seemed like the case.

So in short, I'm happy with what Sather did yesterday, or more accurately, what he didn't do.

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03-04-2010, 11:38 AM
  #87
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look at the flyers they have Richards, Carter, Briere Gagne lots of Fire power and decent dmen in Pronger and Coburn...

BUT Michael Leighton is there starting goaltender. I'd say we are in much better shape then they are come playoff time.

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03-04-2010, 11:38 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Was it known that players like Getzlaf and Richards were sure-fire 80 point players? Doug Weight and Tony Amonte were 2nd round picks. If Stepan and Kreider were to be become the equivalent of Weight and Amonte, would they not be legitimate front line players?
Can Grachev, Anisimov, Kreider, and Stepan turn out to be 80 point guys? Sure! I'd love it. But none of them are expected to turn out like that. They're good prospects, I'm thrilled to have them in the system, but they're not blue-chippers.

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03-04-2010, 11:40 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Which one of these guys is going to be an 80pt guy in the NHL?
Who knows? Any of them can. A lot depends on who it is around them. There's no saying that Kreider or Stepan will never be ppg players. Of course there's a greater chance that they end up not being that. Either way, we won't know til we know.

Who knows? One of them comes up, clicks with Gaborik, then watch out.

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03-04-2010, 11:41 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
All I'm saying is that your definition of blue-chip prospect is different from mine. Grachev is probably going to top out at 60 points. Parise was doing that in his second season. They're not in the same league, and I consider Parise blue-chip.
I don't think I defined blue-chip prospect anywhere, actually. All I said was that if Grachev, Stepan, etc... develop into 60+ point guys that our NY Rangers will be competitive.

The likelihood of this team drafting in the top 3, ever, is pretty low.

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03-04-2010, 11:41 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
Who knows? Any of them can. A lot depends on who it is around them. There's no saying that Kreider or Stepan will never be ppg players. Of course there's a greater chance that they end up not being that. Either way, we won't know til we know.
Sigh. My point is that because none of them project to be top line guys, none of them are blue-chippers. That's all!

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03-04-2010, 11:43 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Sigh. My point is that because none of them project to be top line guys, none of them are blue-chippers. That's all!
Alexandre Daigle was a blue chiper... what a Hall of fame career he had.

That loser Henrik Lundqvist i cant bieleve we snag this scrub in the 7th round.

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03-04-2010, 11:44 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I don't think I defined blue-chip prospect anywhere, actually. All I said was that if Grachev, Stepan, etc... develop into 60+ point guys that our NY Rangers will be competitive.

The likelihood of this team drafting in the top 3, ever, is pretty low.
BRB said this:

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im very concerned that our prospect pool is a textbook case of quantity over quality, and Im pretty sure Im not the only one.

Wheres the bluechippers?
You responded with this:

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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Grachev, MDZ, MCD, Sangs
I responded by saying none of them are blue-chippers and now everyone is yellin' at me.

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03-04-2010, 11:44 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
My point, to your point, is that 80+ point scorers are rare as hell especially if it's something you're looking for consistently.
So my point was that 80 pts players are easy to find?


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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
My point, further, is that what you're looking for is pretty lofty and fairly unrealistic.
Not looking for anything.

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03-04-2010, 11:45 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Yes there is. We are tied for playoff spot.

It doesn't matter if the team may not be good enough to make a run, I don't believe in giving up the season if we still have a shot at the playoffs...

You never know what could happen. There may not be another Edmonton Oilers run for 20 years.. but with a world class goaltender, you don't throw away a playoff appearence for draft picks.
This has been the rallying cry for Ranger fans heading into the playoffs for years now. I was OK with it because there were a couple of years where I just wanted to witness playoff hockey after being without it for so long.

But dont you want a team that you feel more confident with heading into a playoff run and into the playoffs if we get there? Because lets face it, deep down, you KNOW whats going to happen because we just arent a good team.

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03-04-2010, 11:46 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
Alexandre Daigle was a blue chiper... what a Hall of fame career he had.

That loser Henrik Lundqvist i cant bieleve we snag this scrub in the 7th round.
You're right. Daigle was a blue chip prospect. Lundqvist was not. Lundqvist is on his way to a Hall of Fame career, and Daigle is washing windows on the corner of 42nd and 8th.

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR OUR PROSPECTS TO EXCEED EXPECTATIONS. I'M JUST SAYING WE LACK A GUY IN OUR SYSTEM THAT IS A BONA FIDE FIRST LINE GUY.

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03-04-2010, 11:46 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Sigh. My point is that because none of them project to be top line guys, none of them are blue-chippers. That's all!
Well, that's what happens when you never have a top 5 pick. We all know that. Still doesn't mean that tanking is the answer either. I mean according to HF, Kreider & Stepan are projected to be first liners (8.0).

8 - First line forward / No. 2 defenseman / No. 1 goaltender -- players with definite skill that might be just a cut below elite status, but still possessing All-Star potential. Think Patrik Elias, Keith Tkachuk, Mattias Ohlund, Adam Foote, Sean Burke, Olaf Kolzig.

Not exactly 80 point guys, but still very good.

I mean as far as I know, there is only one player on HF that's ranked a 9.0. That's Tavares. So yeah.

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03-04-2010, 11:48 AM
  #98
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I responded by saying none of them are blue-chippers and now everyone is yellin' at me.
Yeah, very odd day here today.

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03-04-2010, 11:51 AM
  #99
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noone truly 'knows' how the Rangers' prospects will turn out. You can only point to anectdotal evidence to come to a conclusion. But to another point, perhaps having two 80 point guys isn't reasonable, but to be honest, having two guys over 70 points is reasonable, especially when one centers the 80 point guy. To have a guy with 40-50 points be the centerman to an 80 point guy just tells me that the 80 point guy carried him and you can have any number of guys playing with the elite guy. If Gaborik is an 80 point guy with the guys he's playing with, then the thought would be that with a true 70 point guy 1+1 = more tan 2 and Gabby should be closer to 90-100 which is the difference in fighting for a playoff spot and being solid in the 6-7 spot. Still not the Stanley Cup, but it's improvement.

Back to the prospects...it's true that you don't know how a guy will develop. Daigle wasn't drafted #1 overall with the expectations of being a bust. Datsyuk wasn't drafted #171 with the thought of him being more than a point per game guy. So with that said, anything can happen. The issue is trying to count on points from those guys in the future is tough. One poster mentioned we have Gabby for four more years then we hope to have other kids coming along. But reality is you have a guy like Grachev who may not hit the NHL in a couple years and may not realize his potential until Gabby is gone. That's the issue with the Rangers' cupboard - nice players currently playing, such as Dubi and Cally, not stars, but nice players, with noone really lighting it up making you comfortably say these guys can be top six players in the next couple seasons. Kreider may be in college for 3 more seasons, although Stepan may be here sooner (hopefully he brings more than his Jamie Lundmark frame with him).

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03-04-2010, 11:51 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
Well, that's what happens when you never have a top 5 pick. We all know that. Still doesn't mean that tanking is the answer either. I mean according to HF, Kreider & Stepan are projected to be first liners (8.0).

8 - First line forward / No. 2 defenseman / No. 1 goaltender -- players with definite skill that might be just a cut below elite status, but still possessing All-Star potential. Think Patrik Elias, Keith Tkachuk, Mattias Ohlund, Adam Foote, Sean Burke, Olaf Kolzig.

Not exactly 80 point guys, but still very good.

I mean as far as I know, there is only one player on HF that's ranked a 9.0. That's Tavares. So yeah.
You're leaving out the letter part of their grade, which measures the players realistic chances of reaching their potential:

A - All but guaranteed to reach potential - 100 percent metaphysical certitude that the player will play up to his abilities as noted by his potential rating. In this case, the potential rating is multiplied by 100 percent for depth chart purposes, signaling that the player is a lock to reach his given potential.

B - Should reach potential, could drop 1 rating - likely to reach potential, but may have a hole or two in his game that will keep him from reaching his full potential. The potential rating is multiplied by 90 percent for depth chart purposes, which indicates slightly less certainty about a player’s future performance.

C - May reach potential, could drop 2 ratings - has shown some flashes, but may ultimately not have what it takes to reach his potential. The potential rating is multiplied by 80 percent for depth chart purposes to show the uncertainty of a player reaching his potential.

D - Unlikely to reach potential, could drop 3 ratings - a player who has a chance to reach his potential but is unlikely to do so. The potential rating is multiplied by 70 percent for depth chart purposes, indicating that the player's potential is extremely fluid.

Stepan is an 8.0 C

Kreider is an 8.0 D

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