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Old
03-04-2010, 10:53 AM
  #101
haohmaru
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
You responded with this:
My name isn't "genericnyrusername" and I didn't respond with that.

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03-04-2010, 10:54 AM
  #102
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Datsyuk and Zetterberg are also late round picks...

Hugh Jessiman and Robert Nilson are 1st round picks.

The Draft is unpredicatable the idea that we need 2nd to 1st round picks to be good is at this point flat out wrong.

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03-04-2010, 10:54 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
My name isn't "genericnyrusername" and I didn't respond with that.
Whoops.

With everyone yelling at me I lost track of who's who.

My apologies.

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03-04-2010, 10:56 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
If you're a franchise as prestigious as the Rangers, you don't go firesale when you're on the brink of the playoffs.

And to argue that not selling prospal is going to be the downfall of our prospect core is ridiculous. We're pretty well off in that department and we've been drafting well, even outside of the first round.

I've argued this before that some people seem to not get that mediocrity isn't the worst position you can be in. You can be perpetually bad. This idea that the worst thing in the world is to make the playoffs each year as a lower seed is crazy.

Also with mediocrity again, it's perfectly legal in the NHL to go from mediocre to elite. This "stuck in mediocrity" notion is a farce.
Beautiful Post

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03-04-2010, 10:57 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
You're right. Daigle was a blue chip prospect. Lundqvist was not. Lundqvist is on his way to a Hall of Fame career, and Daigle is washing windows on the corner of 42nd and 8th.

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR OUR PROSPECTS TO EXCEED EXPECTATIONS. I'M JUST SAYING WE LACK A GUY IN OUR SYSTEM THAT IS A BONA FIDE FIRST LINE GUY.
And that, I believe is the point otheras are trying to make. At the time they were drafted, players like Parise, Getzlaf and Carter were projected as 2nd line players. A player like Zherdev, who was drafted 4th in that draft, was considered to have a higher upside than the players I just mentioned; they weren't sure-fire, either.

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03-04-2010, 10:59 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
And that, I believe is the point otheras are trying to make. At the time they were drafted, players like Parise, Getzlaf and Carter were projected as 2nd line players. A player like Zherdev, who was drafted 4th in that draft, was considered to have a higher upside than the players I just mentioned; they weren't sure-fire, either.
I completely understand that. But you guys can't ignore the fact that a blue chip prospect has a higher probability of reaching a higher ceiling. If that wasn't the case, GMs would be throwing around 1st round draft picks like they were candy.

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03-04-2010, 10:59 AM
  #107
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In any event - how can anyone determine what Stepan, Kreider, etc... will be 5 or 10 years from now? Who knows? The proof is in the pudding. Brad Richards is the only guy the top 11 NHL scorers, right now, that wasn't a top 5 or 10 1st round draft pick.

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03-04-2010, 11:01 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
But dont you want a team that you feel more confident with heading into a playoff run and into the playoffs if we get there? Because lets face it, deep down, you KNOW whats going to happen because we just arent a good team.
Yes, I think we all want that. But that isn't the reality of our situation. It's so hard to know how things will play out from one year to the next.

Look at 2005-06. Everyone predicted us to be bad, but we were one of the best teams in the conference until after the olympic break. Hank got a groin injury and was suffering from migraines, and suddenly we lost a bunch of games in a row at the end to fall from 3rd place to 6th on the last day. Suddenly, no one had confidence in this team and we got swept by the devils.

Then in 2006-07, we went on a tear after the deadline and finished again as the 6th seed. But our hopes for the playoffs were much, much greater. Did anyone really believe that we couldn't beat Buffalo? We came within 7 seconds of taking a 3-2 lead in the series that likely would have lead to an upset and a spot in the conference finals.

After the strong start to this season, we've been pretty much down on this team ever since. But they have been playing better of late. The new acquisitions are contributing and we are even finding ways to score when Gabby isn't in the lineup.

Who knows, maybe things are starting to click for this team. Maybe by the end of the season, we'll be playing so well that we'll believe that we do have a chance against Washington and Pittsburgh.

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03-04-2010, 11:01 AM
  #109
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The fact remains is you dont sell when your tied for the last playoff spot....you just dont....guys like del zotto gilroy anisimov are all new with the team and what kind of message does that send to them....these young guys want to win and make the playoffs to live another day...by selling you pretty much are telling these guys you suck and you cant win....good confidence booster there.....and i understand this team wont do jack in the playoffs but you dont sell from the position they were in

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Old
03-04-2010, 11:01 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
In any event - how can anyone determine what Stepan, Kreider, etc... will be 5 or 10 years from now? Who knows? The proof is in the pudding. Brad Richards is the only guy the top 11 NHL scorers, right now, that wasn't a top 5 or 10 1st round draft pick.
Great post. Fans around here are so deprived of a legit blue-chip prospect that we're forced to elevate our expectations of guys like Grachev, Anisimov, Kreider, and Stepan. It's equally frustrating and depressing.

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03-04-2010, 11:04 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
And that, I believe is the point otheras are trying to make. At the time they were drafted, players like Parise, Getzlaf and Carter were projected as 2nd line players. A player like Zherdev, who was drafted 4th in that draft, was considered to have a higher upside than the players I just mentioned; they weren't sure-fire, either.
Parise especially. Not to say he didn't have the "upside", but one of the things people loved was that he looked to be a lock to be at worst a 2nd liner. He had a shot of being a top liner player, but if you told people he would be the best offensive player out of that great draft and arguably a top 5-10 offensive player in the league people would have likely disagreed.

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Old
03-04-2010, 11:23 AM
  #112
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Meh. I would have liked to have seen selling, but I'm not that upset. Maybe we can trade Olli on draft day to some team who wants to negotiate with him and get an extra pick or move up that way.




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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
If you want to ignore facts and rationality I won't come along for the ride.
Dude, you're driving the bus in that regard.

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03-04-2010, 11:32 AM
  #113
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rozy has been bad for 2 years now. i mean real bad. hes been less bad for 4 weeks. i havent forgotten him falling down, shying away from contact, throwing passes up the middle, refusing to shoot, and skating in mudd. have you ?

anyone here who doesnt believe this team would be better without rozy and his contract going forward just doesnt get it. is he a difference maker ? can he really do anything other than log 20 minutes of ice?

hes nothing we should be considering long term. thats my point. he needs to go.
Roszival has NOT been real bad for two years. Get over it. Sure he is not a number 1 or 2 defenseman but he certainly has not been awful. Yeah he goes through instances, or slumps rather, but everyone seems to have that happen to them, its pure nature. And when you're logging 20+ minutes a night for years, you're going to have a rough night sometimes. But he has been a mainstay on that blue line for us and he has been reliable as much as people hate him.

And what the hell are you talking about long term? Who says he's being considered long term? He has 2 fricken years left!! Stop being so ridiculous. His contract is almost up so stop your crying.

Sather did nothing at the deadline when he's done something every year at the deadline during his tenure here, get over it. He held onto the youth and I applaud him for it. In fact, I'll go as far to say that this team WILL make the playoffs, this roster will keep it up and make it happen. I'm fine with it. Lash out at me but I'd rather watch playoff hockey for another year and then let Jokinen walk and try trading Rosie at the draft to clear the cap space for Kovalchuk

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03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
  #114
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Where's the blue-chippers?
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Grachev, MDZ, MCD, Sangs
Calling these guys all blue-chippers is clear avoidance of facts and rationality...

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Old
03-04-2010, 11:44 AM
  #115
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I think Rangerboy is secretly glen sather

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03-04-2010, 11:56 AM
  #116
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haomaru...

you can't definitively determine how prospects will turn out in 5-10 years, however, based on experience with other players and based on their progression, you need to make educational guesses otherwise you will not be able to properly build a team for today and the future. You can't trade players for other players without assessing a value and that value is a discounted value to their projected status. I think that's an acceptable practice, as it is in every industry. In mine, I can't say definitively that IBM will earn $11.11 per share next season - but I can still rationalize why I think that will be the case.

You pick a player at #1 because you believe he will be an elite top liner, or goalie or defenseman. You don't always get it right (see Daigle), but sometimes you do (see Crosby), and sometimes you get a sure-fire NHLer who's not a superstar (see Jovanovski).

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03-04-2010, 12:00 PM
  #117
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would a top 50 prospect be considered a blue chipper?

In that case than we have three. Grachev 25th, Anisimov 33rd, McDonagh 39th at the start of the year.

and Kreider, MDZ, Stepan have done nothing but helped their stock tremendously.

I think we are in better shape than the debbie downers are saying... and you never know who can fall on draft day or what trades can be made.

selling right now would be dumb. First off, who is going to be the stabilizing vet leadership to help the young kids we have now grow. Second it sends a BS message to the youth. Third we have one of the YOUNGEST teams in the league and serious personel changes every year. Keep the team intact and let them develop together. People have no god damn patience on this board. The preach about it, but when it is actually happen they still piss and moan about it.

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03-04-2010, 12:02 PM
  #118
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Watch the kids. Formulate your own opinions.

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03-04-2010, 12:04 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
you can't definitively determine how prospects will turn out in 5-10 years, however, based on experience with other players and based on their progression, you need to make educational guesses otherwise you will not be able to properly build a team for today and the future. You can't trade players for other players without assessing a value and that value is a discounted value to their projected status. I think that's an acceptable practice, as it is in every industry. In mine, I can't say definitively that IBM will earn $11.11 per share next season - but I can still rationalize why I think that will be the case.

You pick a player at #1 because you believe he will be an elite top liner, or goalie or defenseman. You don't always get it right (see Daigle), but sometimes you do (see Crosby), and sometimes you get a sure-fire NHLer who's not a superstar (see Jovanovski).
Right.

I happen to like all of the following players: Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Grachev...etc. I think all of them are solid prospects, with good shots at making the NHL. But I don't see a single legit first-liner among them. I see a lot of guys who could be very good second-liners. Stepan and Kreider, especially. But I will be seriously shocked if any of these players becomes a cornerstone franchise player, which is something that this franchise desperately needs one or two more of.

I hope against hope that I'm dead wrong, but I don't think I am. And I have seen them all play. Some more than others, but enough to get a decent look. And I just look forward to the next round of BS and excuses in 2-3 years when this team still has the same big holes it does now.

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03-04-2010, 12:06 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
you can't definitively determine how prospects will turn out in 5-10 years, however, based on experience with other players and based on their progression, you need to make educational guesses otherwise you will not be able to properly build a team for today and the future. You can't trade players for other players without assessing a value and that value is a discounted value to their projected status. I think that's an acceptable practice, as it is in every industry. In mine, I can't say definitively that IBM will earn $11.11 per share next season - but I can still rationalize why I think that will be the case.

You pick a player at #1 because you believe he will be an elite top liner, or goalie or defenseman. You don't always get it right (see Daigle), but sometimes you do (see Crosby), and sometimes you get a sure-fire NHLer who's not a superstar (see Jovanovski).
Good advice, though I think its being ignored pretty heavy on both sides of the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225
would a top 50 prospect be considered a blue chipper?

In that case than we have three. Grachev 25th, Anisimov 33rd, McDonagh 39th at the start of the year.

and Kreider, MDZ, Stepan have done nothing but helped their stock tremendously.

I think we are in better shape than the debbie downers are saying... and you never know who can fall on draft day or what trades can be made.

selling right now would be dumb. First off, who is going to be the stabilizing vet leadership to help the young kids we have now grow. Second it sends a BS message to the youth. Third we have one of the YOUNGEST teams in the league and serious personel changes every year. Keep the team intact and let them develop together. People have no god damn patience on this board. The preach about it, but when it is actually happen they still piss and moan about it.
Thats the other part of the problem of this article, no one seems to know what anyones definition of a blue chip prospect is. Is it an "elite prospect"? Is it a top 50 prospect? More, less?

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03-04-2010, 12:08 PM
  #121
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definition of a blue chip prospect is. Is it an "elite prospect"? Is it a top 50 prospect? More, less?
I define it as a legit first line forward or a legit number one defenseman, who is excellent at both ends of the ice (or so incredibly dominating offensively that his defense isn't a concern, like Green).

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03-04-2010, 12:09 PM
  #122
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slats made a huge mistake yesterday. he did not have a good day and we will pay for it in the future. we needed to sell whatever we could and improve our draft pick stock and our draft position.
Obviously this team doesn't want to sell off any pieces. Just because we are not the favorites to win the cup doesn't mean theres not a chance.

The top line - Prospal-Christ-Gaborik is playing great. Everyone is working well with eachother. No reason to tear it apart.

2nd line - Dubi-Jok-Cally - Again, playing Great together. Very productive. Love the line. No reason to tear it apart.

I like the 3rd line of Avery-AA-Lisin but Lisin isn't gonna stick around.


Regardless, we sell any one piece in that top 6 and the teams chemistry is ****ed. We are not the penguins. Were not gonna tank for 5 years. Every season we are gonna compete for the playoffs. And selling off any one of those pieces on the top 6 ruins our already slimming chances.

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03-04-2010, 12:10 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I define it as a legit first line forward or a legit number one defenseman, who is excellent at both ends of the ice (or so incredibly dominating offensively that his defense isn't a concern, like Green).
Ditto.

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03-04-2010, 12:13 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Garfinkel1 View Post
Obviously this team doesn't want to sell off any pieces. Just because we are not the favorites to win the cup doesn't mean theres not a chance.

The top line - Prospal-Christ-Gaborik is playing great. Everyone is working well with eachother. No reason to tear it apart.

2nd line - Dubi-Jok-Cally - Again, playing Great together. Very productive. Love the line. No reason to tear it apart.

I like the 3rd line of Avery-AA-Lisin but Lisin isn't gonna stick around.


Regardless, we sell any one piece in that top 6 and the teams chemistry is ****ed. We are not the penguins. Were not gonna tank for 5 years. Every season we are gonna compete for the playoffs. And selling off any one of those pieces on the top 6 ruins our already slimming chances.
So wouldn't it make a lot more sense to do what is necessary so that our chances at making the playoffs every year AREN'T slim? Imagine, having a team that's good enough where making the playoffs is practically a given. Interestingly enough, those teams tend to be the teams that compete for the Stanley Cup most often.

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03-04-2010, 12:14 PM
  #125
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Right.

I happen to like all of the following players: Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Grachev...etc. I think all of them are solid prospects, with good shots at making the NHL. But I don't see a single legit first-liner among them. I see a lot of guys who could be very good second-liners. Stepan and Kreider, especially. But I will be seriously shocked if any of these players becomes a cornerstone franchise player, which is something that this franchise desperately needs one or two more of.

I hope against hope that I'm dead wrong, but I don't think I am. And I have seen them all play. Some more than others, but enough to get a decent look. And I just look forward to the next round of BS and excuses in 2-3 years when this team still has the same big holes it does now.
and here is your biggest problem. your timeframe. In 2-3 years Stepan, Kreider, and Grachev still shouldn't be counted on. Grachev might only be a rookie in 2 years. Same with Stepan who could actually just be a rookie in the AHL in 2 years. Kreider will be lucky to be in the AHL in 2 years.

And tanking to get a high draft pick this year, still doesn't guarantee anything in 2-3 years. especially since there is virtually no way for us to get the top 2 picks (seguin, hall) as truthfully Fowler wouldn't do jack to make us that much better. We already have enough high end d prospects so to speak.

If you want us to be among the elite in 2-3 years than you better pray we sign Kovy and another high end dman in that timeframe... b/c it's not going to happen otherwise especially since next years draft (2011) is supposed to be brutal.

So a timeframe for us and our prospects and young players is more like 4-6 years for them to really start hitting their stride.

Our biggest problem is that our Lundy and Gabby are too "OLD" for our crop of prospects that we have now, in the sense that when our prospects should be really leaving their mark in the NHL they will be on the decline. (maybe not Lundy but i'm wary of his style being conducive to hitting the age wall earlier).

so if you really wanted to trade off assests and start from scratch, the best way to do that would be to trade of Lundy and Gabby in which you can get some serious picks and elite prospects for this way our good prospects now, and those "elite" prospects will all be around the same age and hittin on all cylanders around the same time. Trading Joke and Prospal would do jack for us in the next 2-3 years.

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