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Old
12-29-2009, 01:12 PM
  #26
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What do you think of the move now...?
I still think it was unnecessary to give him that much of a raise, but it stings a little less now that he's playing like he's capable. But at the time, there was no reason to think or expect him to play up to that potential, so if they wanted to keep him, just give him a minimal raise. Coulda gotten him cheaper, but it's no biggie.

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12-29-2009, 02:10 PM
  #27
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Clearly, what happens between the playoff-bolstering times and the beginning of next season will tell quite a bit more about the management. I am very interested to see just how committed they are to rebuilding from within and stocking the cubbard now that there's a whiff of playoff contention for our squad.

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12-29-2009, 02:13 PM
  #28
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IMO, the Avs should look to have Budaj as their backup for a long time. I thought last year's problems started off being more the teams fault, but then as it was so bad for so long, I think it affected Budaj's confidence, and the bad goals started popping up more and more. I don't think he'll ever be an effective starter in this league because of that, but I do think he's one of, if not the best backup in the league.

He gets along great with his teammates, and the other goalie. You always see him on the bench after periods and after games, being very upbeat, and enthusiastic. He studies the hell out of opposing goalies. This is a great asset to have, especially in the shootout. It seems like everytime a player is interviewed about their SO, they say that Budaj gave him a tip. This can also help during games, if the coaching staff goes to him for advice. Add that to the fact that he's capable of playing great games in short stints, and it's a no brainer to keep him. Probably not at the price he's at now, but I'd keep him for a long time if it were up to me. Given his resurgence so far, I'd feel more comfortable than with most backups, if he had to step in for a couple months after the starter went down with an injury.

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12-29-2009, 02:30 PM
  #29
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IMO, the Avs should look to have Budaj as their backup for a long time. I thought last year's problems started off being more the teams fault, but then as it was so bad for so long, I think it affected Budaj's confidence, and the bad goals started popping up more and more. I don't think he'll ever be an effective starter in this league because of that, but I do think he's one of, if not the best backup in the league.

He gets along great with his teammates, and the other goalie. You always see him on the bench after periods and after games, being very upbeat, and enthusiastic. He studies the hell out of opposing goalies. This is a great asset to have, especially in the shootout. It seems like everytime a player is interviewed about their SO, they say that Budaj gave him a tip. This can also help during games, if the coaching staff goes to him for advice. Add that to the fact that he's capable of playing great games in short stints, and it's a no brainer to keep him. Probably not at the price he's at now, but I'd keep him for a long time if it were up to me. Given his resurgence so far, I'd feel more comfortable than with most backups, if he had to step in for a couple months after the starter went down with an injury.
absolutely agreed. He's a perfect backup. I am still surprised we gave him so much when all it really would have taken was a QO, but perhaps that was a setup for this sort of role.

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12-29-2009, 02:37 PM
  #30
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I don't mind one bit if Budaj sticks around. I will mind if upper management loses its collective mind and re-ups Clark and Tucker.

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12-29-2009, 02:51 PM
  #31
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I don't mind one bit if Budaj sticks around. I will mind if upper management loses its collective mind and re-ups Clark and Tucker.
Oh, Jesus. I have a re-occuring thought about that happening, and that it wouldn't shock me in the case of Clark. I really think PL had a lot to do with his re-signing. In fact, I think he had a lot of input on the moves that everyone gives FG such a hard time for. Not a string pulling amount of input, but input nonetheless, given his role as advisor, and FG being a non hockey guy that trusted PL's experience and knowledge.

After he decided to change the makeup of the team with the Drury/Yelle trade, PL always seemed to put a priority on offense over defense in roles like Arnason's and McLean's (although he at least worked hard) on the 3rd line, and Clark's and Brisebois's in the top four. Even in the face of glaring defensive mistakes, and a drop in offensive production, he still like their game. Both of those roles have been the number one factor in this team's problems over the years (even more so than goaltending IMO) and a big reason why we're doing so well this year with the additions of O'Reilly and Quincy, who have a much better balance between offense and defense.

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12-29-2009, 03:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I don't mind one bit if Budaj sticks around. I will mind if upper management loses its collective mind and re-ups Clark and Tucker.
if we lose Tucker, how in the world can we possibly find someone else as talented to play on PK2?


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12-29-2009, 04:42 PM
  #33
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In all fairness, Tucker was looking fantastic this season before his injury. Ever since he came back he looks like the pile of garbage tucker from last year, which is upsetting because we all saw flashes of great potential in him.

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12-29-2009, 04:50 PM
  #34
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In all fairness, Tucker was looking fantastic this season before his injury. Ever since he came back he looks like the pile of garbage tucker from last year, which is upsetting because we all saw flashes of great potential in him.
Even if he hadn't been derailed by the Ruutu hit and put up solid numbers I still would advocate his ouster at the end of the year. Tucker even in his prime was still slow, small, defensively lax, and prone to the occasional stupid penalty. He, like Clark, is an interim measure who has overstayed his welcome a bit.

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12-29-2009, 05:20 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
After he decided to change the makeup of the team with the Drury/Yelle trade, PL always seemed to put a priority on offense over defense in roles like Arnason's and McLean's (although he at least worked hard) on the 3rd line,
Eh, Nikolishin and Konowolchuk were great two-way additions to the 3rd line role post-Yelle.

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Even if he hadn't been derailed by the Ruutu hit and put up solid numbers I still would advocate his ouster at the end of the year. Tucker even in his prime was still slow, small, defensively lax, and prone to the occasional stupid penalty. He, like Clark, is an interim measure who has overstayed his welcome a bit.
I'm of the same opinion, this season should be his last if nothing aside from the fact that he doesn't have much place on a team actively rebuilding their core. But I will say that I have been slightly taken aback the amount of times that the broadcast duo have cited testimonials of the young players gushing over how good of a leader Tucker has been to them. If we need to find a silver lining in Tucker's presence, that's certainly it.

Mind you, I still hold him responsible for Laperriere's departure as I feel that Tucker's hideous contract wast the precursor for not being able to meet Lappy's modest contract demands. But hey, bygones...

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12-29-2009, 06:13 PM
  #36
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Eh, Nikolishin and Konowolchuk were great two-way additions to the 3rd line role post-Yelle.


I'm of the same opinion, this season should be his last if nothing aside from the fact that he doesn't have much place on a team actively rebuilding their core. But I will say that I have been slightly taken aback the amount of times that the broadcast duo have cited testimonials of the young players gushing over how good of a leader Tucker has been to them. If we need to find a silver lining in Tucker's presence, that's certainly it.

Mind you, I still hold him responsible for Laperriere's departure as I feel that Tucker's hideous contract wast the precursor for not being able to meet Lappy's modest contract demands. But hey, bygones...
I was referring to the third line center position. Niko was great, but he was used more as a 4th line center, and was only here for one year. The following summer he went to Russia, they bought out Gratton, another good two way center at the time, and went with McLean and then Arnason. This is the first time we've had a good two way center for the 3rd line since that 03-04 season before the lockout, with Gratton and Nikolishin.

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12-29-2009, 06:47 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I was referring to the third line center position. Niko was great, but he was used more as a 4th line center, and was only here for one year. The following summer he went to Russia, they bought out Gratton, another good two way center at the time, and went with McLean and then Arnason. This is the first time we've had a good two way center for the 3rd line since that 03-04 season before the lockout, with Gratton and Nikolishin.
Agreed in principle. O'Reilly, if he becomes what most of us expect him to be will fill the void left by Yelle that has never been filled in the long-term since.

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12-30-2009, 12:22 AM
  #38
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Where's the love for Jeff Shantz?

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03-03-2010, 03:22 PM
  #39
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Deadline move (not moves) has been added.

Have to say I'm a bit worried at the competence of this group, and possibly PL. The fact that they went in to deadline day, most likely wanting to move at the very least Salei and Svatos, and all they ended up doing was trading one of their better trade pieces for a reduced value, kind of worries me that PL may have been out of the game a little too long.

With all the comparable defenseman being moved, and the 2nds being thrown around, are you telling me he couldn't have got something of value? I mean hell, on the same day we traded Wolski, Phoenix picked up Morris and Schneider. Why not just throw in Salei for something? This tells me they tried to get too much, and ended up with nothing.

As a side note, management finally got a #88 to play for this franchise.


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03-03-2010, 03:37 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Deadline move (not moves) has been added.

Have to say I'm a bit worried at the competence of this group, and possibly PL. The fact that they went in to deadline day, most likely wanting to move at the very least Salei and Svatos, and all they ended up doing was trading one of their better trade pieces for a reduced value, kind of worries me that PL may have been out of the game a little too long.

With all the comparable defenseman being moved, and the 2nds being thrown around, are you telling me he couldn't have got something of value? I mean hell, on the same day we traded Wolski, Phoenix picked up Morris and Schneider. Why not just throw in Salei for something? This tells me they tried to get too much, and ended up with nothing.

I'm still going to give the current group the benefit of the doubt--it doesn't help the team suffered key injuries (Yip, Cumiskey) at the worst possible time, and I don't think Ryan Wilson has completely recovered from his concussion.

That being said I can't help but be irritated with them at present. We'll see in time whether they were right or wrong.

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03-03-2010, 05:12 PM
  #41
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I'm still going to give the current group the benefit of the doubt--it doesn't help the team suffered key injuries (Yip, Cumiskey) at the worst possible time, and I don't think Ryan Wilson has completely recovered from his concussion.

That being said I can't help but be irritated with them at present. We'll see in time whether they were right or wrong.
Sherman and Co. are fine with me, Sherman has yet to make a bad move minus maybe Koci but he is what he is. So I have to go off what I know, and that is I trust Sherman to make solid moves that are beneficial.

Plus you you have no idea what they have up their sleeves come UFA time, something tells me this isn't the end of what they are planning to do.

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03-04-2010, 12:31 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Deadline move (not moves) has been added.

Have to say I'm a bit worried at the competence of this group, and possibly PL. The fact that they went in to deadline day, most likely wanting to move at the very least Salei and Svatos, and all they ended up doing was trading one of their better trade pieces for a reduced value, kind of worries me that PL may have been out of the game a little too long.

With all the comparable defenseman being moved, and the 2nds being thrown around, are you telling me he couldn't have got something of value? I mean hell, on the same day we traded Wolski, Phoenix picked up Morris and Schneider. Why not just throw in Salei for something? This tells me they tried to get too much, and ended up with nothing.

As a side note, management finally got a #88 to play for this franchise.


To get Yelle......that was ALL PL's fingerprints on that one. That was enough indication to me that Sherman isn't the one who pulls the strings here. And Wolski's salary dump arguably had Kroenke's over it depending on free agency.

How much control does Sherman actually have? I have a feeling he just submits the list of best offers and makes the calls like a secretary would.

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03-04-2010, 01:57 AM
  #43
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To get Yelle......that was ALL PL's fingerprints on that one. That was enough indication to me that Sherman isn't the one who pulls the strings here. And Wolski's salary dump arguably had Kroenke's over it depending on free agency.

How much control does Sherman actually have? I have a feeling he just submits the list of best offers and makes the calls like a secretary would.
I really doubt they're paying Greg Sherman six figures a year to submit a list to Pierre. If Pierre was making all the decisions, he would just have hired himself for the GM position. What would the motivation be for Pierre to hire a cover GM? Does he not want people knowing he's making deals? I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me at all. I guess that stigma will never go away until he retires, which is a total bummer.

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03-04-2010, 11:41 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Deadline move (not moves) has been added.

Have to say I'm a bit worried at the competence of this group, and possibly PL. The fact that they went in to deadline day, most likely wanting to move at the very least Salei and Svatos, and all they ended up doing was trading one of their better trade pieces for a reduced value, kind of worries me that PL may have been out of the game a little too long.

With all the comparable defenseman being moved, and the 2nds being thrown around, are you telling me he couldn't have got something of value? I mean hell, on the same day we traded Wolski, Phoenix picked up Morris and Schneider. Why not just throw in Salei for something? This tells me they tried to get too much, and ended up with nothing.

As a side note, management finally got a #88 to play for this franchise.
Or maybe they offered to throw in Liles or Clark for an added 1st or something? Fact is, like me, you have NO clue what offers were made. Maybe they like what they have in Salei(which I can't blame them)and want to keep him around and no one wanted Liles or Clark since there are cheaper and better options to be had. Fact is, it takes two to tango.

I can't stand people acting like they know what goes on behind the scenes. You have no clue what was discussed or what offers were put on the table. The only people that know that are the people involved. In his first game, Mueller has scored 1/2 the goals that Wolski has the last 20 games. The PP actually looked decent with a right handed shot on the point(3 goals is a good thing, right?) It's a risky move, but at the end of the day, do you really think it was THAT bad? Wolski was going to be getting $4 million+ from arbitration. He quickly had fallen from the core of the team. His nightly effort was lacking. There was just too much going on inside his little brain to be worth that money. As has been beaten to death, he has all the talent to be a top player...but the organ between his ears is holding him back, and most likely will always hold him back. He's basically Alexei Yashin without the major attitude problems but with the same talent and lack of effort.

At the end of the day, this COULD bite the Avs in the ass, but that will only be if Wolski puts it all together. Tippet isn't going to take his laziness and the over/under on number of games until he gets benched is pretty low. Risky move, but it was either now or when his value drops more(since he wasn't going to be scoring anytime soon). So would you rather get a 2nd straight up or a roster player that if he turns it around(i think a goal in his first game is a good start)could make everyone say "Wolski who?"?

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03-04-2010, 11:41 AM
  #45
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I really doubt they're paying Greg Sherman six figures a year to submit a list to Pierre. If Pierre was making all the decisions, he would just have hired himself for the GM position. What would the motivation be for Pierre to hire a cover GM? Does he not want people knowing he's making deals? I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me at all. I guess that stigma will never go away until he retires, which is a total bummer.
Precisely. Seriously people...snagging a 4th line center for the final 20 or so games of the season in exchange for a prospect I'm willing to bet no one other than Jori has ever heard of and a SIXTH rounder and suddenly that's a clear indicator that Pierre Lacroix is "pulling the puppet strings"?



It would be funny if it weren't so lame.

It'd be foolish to believe Lacroix no longer has a voice in the organization but it'd be equally foolish to believe Lacroix is still really the man in charge. For starters, I don't believe he's even healthy enough to do such a thing.

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03-04-2010, 11:48 AM
  #46
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Precisely. Seriously people...snagging a 4th line center for the final 20 or so games of the season in exchange for a prospect I'm willing to bet no one other than Jori has ever heard of and a SIXTH rounder and suddenly that's a clear indicator that Pierre Lacroix is "pulling the puppet strings"?



It would be funny if it weren't so lame.

It'd be foolish to believe Lacroix no longer has a voice in the organization but it'd be equally foolish to believe Lacroix is still really the man in charge. For starters, I don't believe he's even healthy enough to do such a thing.
Until he retires, Lacroix is going to be "The Guy Running The Show" to a lot of people which is quite sad. Shoot, even after he dies, many here will probably think that.

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03-04-2010, 01:50 PM
  #47
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While I have been pleased with Sherman, a lot of this teams resurgence has been the result of young players taking a chance and running with it. You can't tell me Sherman & Co knew Stewart, Jones, Yip etc would play as they are. If they did, previous actions make no sense.

But given what has happened, I do appreciate that the front office are conservative and not make big moves since we have a lot of players that will be getting a raise sooner rather than later.

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03-04-2010, 02:41 PM
  #48
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Or maybe they offered to throw in Liles or Clark for an added 1st or something? Fact is, like me, you have NO clue what offers were made. Maybe they like what they have in Salei(which I can't blame them)and want to keep him around and no one wanted Liles or Clark since there are cheaper and better options to be had. Fact is, it takes two to tango.

I can't stand people acting like they know what goes on behind the scenes. You have no clue what was discussed or what offers were put on the table. The only people that know that are the people involved. In his first game, Mueller has scored 1/2 the goals that Wolski has the last 20 games. The PP actually looked decent with a right handed shot on the point(3 goals is a good thing, right?) It's a risky move, but at the end of the day, do you really think it was THAT bad? Wolski was going to be getting $4 million+ from arbitration. He quickly had fallen from the core of the team. His nightly effort was lacking. There was just too much going on inside his little brain to be worth that money. As has been beaten to death, he has all the talent to be a top player...but the organ between his ears is holding him back, and most likely will always hold him back. He's basically Alexei Yashin without the major attitude problems but with the same talent and lack of effort.

At the end of the day, this COULD bite the Avs in the ass, but that will only be if Wolski puts it all together. Tippet isn't going to take his laziness and the over/under on number of games until he gets benched is pretty low. Risky move, but it was either now or when his value drops more(since he wasn't going to be scoring anytime soon). So would you rather get a 2nd straight up or a roster player that if he turns it around(i think a goal in his first game is a good start)could make everyone say "Wolski who?"?
That's it. Shut down the Avs board. No one knows what's really going on behind the scenes, so no one is alowed to guess or evaluate a trade. Great logic there. You know what I can't stand? People trying to sugarcoat everything. Why would you even write that he's now "scored 1/2 the goals that Wolski has the last 20 games?" I thought he had a good game too, but let's be honest here, it was a flukey wrist shot from the point. The earliest we should be evaluating how he'll play for us down the road, is halfway through next season after the motivation from the trade wears off.

I don't think it's a terrible trade. It's just not good use of assets for like the 100th time in a row. At best Mueller's production bounces back, and we get what Wolski would have produced on a season anyway. That's not a good way to operate IMO. It was done for financial reasons more than anything, and that makes me sick to my stomach they are throwing away assets and opportunities just to save Stan more money.

As for Salei and Svatos, I don't have to be behind the scenes to know that with the type of players moved on deadline day, they either decided not to move them, or tried to get too much for them. Either way it's a mistake IMO. They got off the rebuilding track too much here. Now there's a distraction, and hurt feelings everytime we scratch a servicable forward or defenseman, and it probably waters down the play of everyone in the bottom four. They should have taken whatever they can get for them.

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03-04-2010, 03:15 PM
  #49
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I don't think it's a terrible trade. It's just not good use of assets for like the 100th time in a row. At best Mueller's production bounces back, and we get what Wolski would have produced on a season anyway. That's not a good way to operate IMO. It was done for financial reasons more than anything, and that makes me sick to my stomach they are throwing away assets and opportunities just to save Stan more money.
You want Wolski making $4-5 million next year doing what he's doing now? I surely don't. It was either time to get what you could for him or pay up, and the Avs chose the former. I don't mind that at all. I'm still not convinced they got ample return for him...but that will be meted out in due time.

I don't disagree that it was done for financial reasons, but your supposition that it's because Kroenke is trying to save a few bucks is completely unfounded. Since when has he displayed any sort of unwillingness to pay for talent? He may be cutting costs in other areas of his operation, but not in his on ice/court product. It's a matter of whether Wolski was deserving of a raise and worth the cap room he would be taking up. Obviously the Avs didn't feel he was, and so I'm fine with him being dealt for those reasons.

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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
As for Salei and Svatos, I don't have to be behind the scenes to know that with the type of players moved on deadline day, they either decided not to move them, or tried to get too much for them. Either way it's a mistake IMO. They got off the rebuilding track too much here. Now there's a distraction, and hurt feelings everytime we scratch a servicable forward or defenseman, and it probably waters down the play of everyone in the bottom four. They should have taken whatever they can get for them.
Hold on...you speak of "asset management" and yet don't mind at all watching this team limp into the postseason with a depleted lineup? I will say I don't think it's out of line to say that if Yip, Hejduk, and Cumiskey were healthy, Svatos and Salei would be long gone. They weren't, so I'm guessing the Avs decided it was not worth marginal returns for those two if it meant handcuffing Sacco and the team as they vie for a division title. Look, rebuilding is one thing, pulling the rug out from under a team playing good hockey is another. To be quite honest I'm okay with Salei sticking around, especially considering how badly Foote is playing down the stretch.

I agree the situation with Liles has become a bit of a distraction, but it's clear GM's across the league were very hesitant to add any sort of substantial payroll, so a potential trade will just have to wait until around draft day when teams are more willing to make deals. It's not an ideal situation, but I'm betting there were NO takers for Liles at this point, at least none that weren't offering some other hefty contract in return.

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03-04-2010, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
You want Wolski making $4-5 million next year doing what he's doing now? I surely don't. It was either time to get what you could for him or pay up, and the Avs chose the former. I don't mind that at all. I'm still not convinced they got ample return for him...but that will be meted out in due time.
First of all not really, but that simple statement doesn't excuse the trade. First of all, if he did get that kind of raise (which we don't know for sure) that doesn't acknowledge the fact that he wouldn't be on the team making that kind of money until October. That gives them seven months to find a better deal, including two prime opportunities during the draft, and just after free agency when teams miss out on players. Second, even if they did have to pay him $4+ that isn't really that huge of an overpayment for a guy who at worst will put up 60 points, and at his age still has the possility to reach his potential. I'm not saying he would reach it, but a one or two year deal at around $4 M isn't a terrible situation.

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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I don't disagree that it was done for financial reasons, but your supposition that it's because Kroenke is trying to save a few bucks is completely unfounded. Since when has he displayed any sort of unwillingness to pay for talent? He may be cutting costs in other areas of his operation, but not in his on ice/court product. It's a matter of whether Wolski was deserving of a raise and worth the cap room he would be taking up. Obviously the Avs didn't feel he was, and so I'm fine with him being dealt for those reasons.
This is rather naive Av. It's not about talented players, if that's what you were getting at. It's about paying for players. He made cost cutting measures when he had them trade Smyth, and not re-sign Lappy. Plus there were too many rumors during the summer about moving Hannan as well, to believe they weren't looking into that. The team would have been able to afford a raise to Wolski next year, so cap room wouldn't have been a problem. It's in 2-3 years, when things might get tricky. If it wasn't for cap reasons, it was for salary reasons. That's where Korenke comes into play. Again, this is just a guess, but I don't see it as completely unfounded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Hold on...you speak of "asset management" and yet don't mind at all watching this team limp into the postseason with a depleted lineup? I will say I don't think it's out of line to say that if Yip, Hejduk, and Cumiskey were healthy, Svatos and Salei would be long gone. They weren't, so I'm guessing the Avs decided it was not worth marginal returns for those two if it meant handcuffing Sacco and the team as they vie for a division title. Look, rebuilding is one thing, pulling the rug out from under a team playing good hockey is another. To be quite honest I'm okay with Salei sticking around, especially considering how badly Foote is playing down the stretch.
If those injuries played that big of a role, it was a mistake IMO. They're getting Hejduk back, and they have plenty of D to have lost Salei. Just for the sake of simplicity I'll leave Wolski in the lineup, and show the lines.

Wolski - Stastny - Stewart
Galiardi - Duchene - Hejduk
Stoa - O'Reilly - McLeod
Tucker - Yelle - Hendricks

Quincey - Hannan
Liles - Foote
Wilson - Clark

Scratches - Durno, Macias
Injuries waiting to come back - Yip, Cumiskey, Jones (unlikely)
Callups - Mercier, Porter, Hensick, Willsie, Preissing, Peltier

They'd have a pretty decent roster with all the injuries already, and some of those guys won't be out too long. If they had any other freak injuries, they'd still have options with the callups. It's not like losing Svatos' and Salei's production would be a big loss for this team, since they've pretty much played all season without any production from them.

Trading those two guys wouldn't be pulling the rug out from underneath. As much as I dislike saying it, trading a guy like Clark would, and would probably send the wrong message to the team. Arguably so would trading Wolski though, and they obviously weren't that worried about losing production by trading Svatos, since they traded theirs second leading scorer, for a guy with five goals in his last 79 games.

All I'm saying, is that it's not the end of the world, but kinda just made a few small F ups, when they could have done a few good small things things, and possibly a big good thing if they had waited to move Wolski at another time in a package deal for something.

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