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#63: Flyers @ Sabres - March 5, 2010 - 7:30 PM (ET)

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03-06-2010, 12:11 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
This may sound dumb but is there anything Leighton can work on or fix to improve his rebound control? This has been my concern since his first game as a Flyer and it really seems that if the D isn't there to knock the puck away it almost always leads to a goal. In a series, I am very uncomfortable with this. I am pretty satisfied with the rest of Leighton's game though.
Supposedly, the symmetry between Leighton and goalie coach Jeff Reese has been substantial to this point of the season. Reese changed different basic techniques such as positioning since Leighton has come here. The oft-cited change has been positioning in net, to be back more so than coming out to challenge, in order to take advantage of Leighton's size. Leighton also mentioned how Reese suggested that he (Leighton) be set as opposed to constantly moving. Holmgren has mentioned the defense in front of Leighton and how they are, as a unit, skilled enough to reinforce down low. Laviolette's quote from a few weeks back was "It takes time for goalies to figure out (the NHL)." That was prior to the latest Emery news. Time is something the Flyers don't have. A noticeable comparison in team history was Robbie Moore (small in size, lack of experience, initial success which faded) /Wayne Stephenson (erosion of skills, mind elsewhere) in 1979, when Parent went down in February, and the team paid for it in the PO series against the Rangers.

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03-06-2010, 12:23 PM
  #477
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I just read some of these posts on this thread and I really wonder what people are thinking. This has nothing to do with stopping 31 of 33 in regulation. its the goals he gave up. Not the saves any goalie makes. It just drives me crazy that we always seem to have a goalie who just gives up those back breaking goals. The type of goals that just kill a teams momentum.
Yes at times I have been a supporter of Leighton, but games like the last 2 games just should not happen for teams with playoff aspirations.

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03-06-2010, 12:51 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The first goal was brutal. He came out of the net, didn't get to the puck...then didn't move very quickly to get back into the net, didn't face the puck, and had it bounce off his ass and into the net.
Pronger isnt at fault at all? X-Norris trophy winner gets no blame?

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03-06-2010, 12:57 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Pronger isnt at fault at all? X-Norris trophy winner gets no blame?
If we still had Upshall and that second round pick, it wouldn't have mattered. Upshall would have made the save and scored two goals. Then the second round pick would have hoisted The Cup over its head. Duh.

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03-06-2010, 01:01 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Pronger isnt at fault at all? X-Norris trophy winner gets no blame?

Yeah I agree, Pronger deserves like 90% of the blame for that goal. I was pissed at him the second it happened. Its kinda hard for Leighton to stop a goal like that. He was trying to get back to the net what's he suppose to do?


Well I'm done. After the last 2 games I feel like if we maked the plaoffs the only playoff spot we'll be able to grab is 8th and if we get passed the first round I'll be even more shocked. This year sucks. I've once again pulled out my emotional investment for this team this season. They brought it back in late december and now its gone again...awesome.

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03-06-2010, 01:02 PM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I just read some of these posts on this thread and I really wonder what people are thinking. This has nothing to do with stopping 31 of 33 in regulation. its the goals he gave up. Not the saves any goalie makes. It just drives me crazy that we always seem to have a goalie who just gives up those back breaking goals. The type of goals that just kill a teams momentum.
Yes at times I have been a supporter of Leighton, but games like the last 2 games just should not happen for teams with playoff aspirations.
Guess what, they happen to every team. Sometimes Roberto Luongo lets up 5 goals. So does Brodeur, Fleury, Lundqvist, etc. Leighton isn't as good as them so it's bound to happen more with him net, but a few bad games here and there doesn't mean that there is no shot to do anything. Even the best pitchers in baseball get pulled. If the supporting cast around Leighton plays to their ability, and Leighton just doesn't suck, the team will be fine. If the forwards aren't scoring and the defense isn't shutting people down, then we are in trouble. The team has enough talent to back up Leighton (or any other goalie) so Leighton doesn't have to be Bernie Parent. He just has to play the way he has been playing.

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03-06-2010, 01:09 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Guess what, they happen to every team. Sometimes Roberto Luongo lets up 5 goals. So does Brodeur, Fleury, Lundqvist, etc. Leighton isn't as good as them so it's bound to happen more with him net, but a few bad games here and there doesn't mean that there is no shot to do anything. Even the best pitchers in baseball get pulled. If the supporting cast around Leighton plays to their ability, and Leighton just doesn't suck, the team will be fine. If the forwards aren't scoring and the defense isn't shutting people down, then we are in trouble. The team has enough talent to back up Leighton (or any other goalie) so Leighton doesn't have to be Bernie Parent. He just has to play the way he has been playing.
Does Brodeur, MAF,Luongo, Lundqvist leave that juicy rebound on OT where Leighton did? Do any of them get way out of position on the first goal allowing Buffalo to tie it? I highly doubt it.
This has nothing to do with allowing the 5 goals, or 3 goals, or whatever it is. The type of goals Leighton gives up are killer goals. In the playoffs when the games are tighter and you need your goaltender to be better then he is in the regular season you just cant give up those type of goals.

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03-06-2010, 01:19 PM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Does Brodeur, MAF,Luongo, Lundqvist leave that juicy rebound on OT where Leighton did? Do any of them get way out of position on the first goal allowing Buffalo to tie it? I highly doubt it.
This has nothing to do with allowing the 5 goals, or 3 goals, or whatever it is. The type of goals Leighton gives up are killer goals. In the playoffs when the games are tighter and you need your goaltender to be better then he is in the regular season you just cant give up those type of goals.
Yes they do. The first goal last night was a botched play between Pronger and Leighton. Same thing would have happened to any goalie. Leighton thought Pronger had it, Pronger thought Leighton had it. Switch those two names with any other goalies in history and you get the same result. The second goal last night was a turn over in the zone right in front of Leighton. Yeah he probably coulda saved it and Brodeur or Luongo may have, but when you get a turnover right in front of the net like that when you aren't expecting it, the shooter has the advantage no matter who is in net. The OT goal was a bad goal. But again, every goalie lets in bad goals. Patrick Roy, Bernie Parent, Ken Dryden, etc have all let in bad goals. Probable more than one, I'd say too. The game against Florida was a bad game by all involved.. The game last night was an unlucky game by Leighton and some mistakes by the defense.

This is just the classic panic of everyone on the boards. He loses two in a row and he should be tarred in feathered. He wins two in a row and he still sucks and it's everyone else's effort who won the game. This reminds a lot of the John Stevens situation. Five losses in a row: FIRE HIM HE SUCKS, IT'S NO ONE'S FAULT BUT HIS! Five wins in a row: STEVENS SUCKS, RICHARDS AND CARTER WON THOSE LAST GAMES! If you don't like the Flyers management/players/style etc, why don't you guys go buy a Penguins jersey. They are still very much in the playoff hunt, and still have a shot to win it all.

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03-06-2010, 01:35 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post

This is just the classic panic of everyone on the boards. He loses two in a row and he should be tarred in feathered. He wins two in a row and he still sucks and it's everyone else's effort who won the game. This reminds a lot of the John Stevens situation. Five losses in a row: FIRE HIM HE SUCKS, IT'S NO ONE'S FAULT BUT HIS! Five wins in a row: STEVENS SUCKS, RICHARDS AND CARTER WON THOSE LAST GAMES! If you don't like the Flyers management/players/style etc, why don't you guys go buy a Penguins jersey. They are still very much in the playoff hunt, and still have a shot to win it all.
First off I am not panicing. I am commenting on the goaltending the last 2 games which has not been good. What do you want us to say? Oh well **** happens?
I havent liked the way the Flyers have dealt and treated the goaltending position for 20 plus years. The list is long of the goalies we have had that have not been good enough and the opportunites to get someone better have been there and they chose not to. Do I like it? Of course I dont. Am I going to switch allegiances because of it? are you ****ing kidding me? REALLY? I have been a fan of this team since I was 8 years old. I will die a Flyer fan.

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03-06-2010, 01:39 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Pronger isnt at fault at all? X-Norris trophy winner gets no blame?
If Leighton had bee watching, Pronger was telling him to come out and play the puck

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03-06-2010, 01:44 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Pronger isnt at fault at all? X-Norris trophy winner gets no blame?
That play isn't dangerous until Leighton comes out of the net. THAT is when that play turns into a cluster-F.

So, for starters, no, Pronger isn't really to blame for what eventually happened.

So, Leighton misreads whether he can get to the puck: F up #1.

Then, Leighton lazily makes his way back to his net: F up #2.

While lazily making his way back to the net, Leighton didn't square himself to Vanek with the puck in the corner: F up #3.

Pronger letting the puck go down the corner and thinking his goalie might be able to get it? Misjudgment, but Leighton can read (and know his own abilities) whether he can get to the puck in the first place...get his ass back to the net as quickly as possible...and face the shooter...

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03-06-2010, 01:49 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
This is just the classic panic of everyone on the boards. He loses two in a row and he should be tarred in feathered. He wins two in a row and he still sucks and it's everyone else's effort who won the game.
Yes, because the "Leighton isn't a good goalie" meme just developed...the only reason it's come to a head is because we didn't do anything to address the fact that we're relying on a crappy goalie, not because folks opinion of Leighton has changed demonstrably.

Quote:
This reminds a lot of the John Stevens situation. Five losses in a row: FIRE HIM HE SUCKS, IT'S NO ONE'S FAULT BUT HIS! Five wins in a row: STEVENS SUCKS, RICHARDS AND CARTER WON THOSE LAST GAMES!
It should, Stevens was a crappy coach...and Leighton is a crappy goalie.

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If you don't like the Flyers management/players/style etc, why don't you guys go buy a Penguins jersey.
Give me a break. They haven't won a Cup since the mid-effing-70s and they get a carte blanche from criticism and if you do criticize them you should jump ship to the arch-rival.

1975

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They are still very much in the playoff hunt, and still have a shot to win it all.
Playoff hunt, absolutely. Shot to win it all...only based on "Anything can happen" logic. That gets you far.

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03-06-2010, 02:05 PM
  #488
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It really annoys me when people say "oh, you just decided you don't like Leighton" or "you panicked and decided you didn't like Stevens."

We've been saying for weeks that this poor technique is going to come back and cost Leighton. Now, it's doing that and people are saying, "oh, you're just saying that because he lost 2 games." No, we've been saying it for weeks, now it's beginning to happen.

Same with Stevens, the "Fire Stevens" movement started in the fall of 2007.

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03-06-2010, 02:25 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If you don't like the Flyers management/players/style etc, why don't you guys go buy a Penguins jersey. They are still very much in the playoff hunt, and still have a shot to win it all.
Isn't this the second time you've used this line?


There's nothing wrong with calling out the management for not upholding the management staff to the standards the organization has.

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03-06-2010, 02:37 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
It really annoys me when people say "oh, you just decided you don't like Leighton" or "you panicked and decided you didn't like Stevens."

We've been saying for weeks that this poor technique is going to come back and cost Leighton. Now, it's doing that and people are saying, "oh, you're just saying that because he lost 2 games." No, we've been saying it for weeks, now it's beginning to happen.

Same with Stevens, the "Fire Stevens" movement started in the fall of 2007.
A-men.

I've gotten into debates with fans because of both Leighton and Stevens.

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03-06-2010, 02:52 PM
  #491
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Can't believe some people on here are still apologizing for Leighton.

In real life I've argued with casual fans with little actual knowledge about the game about Leighton and it can get frustrating sometimes when you're arguing with someone who doesn't understand hockey.

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03-06-2010, 03:12 PM
  #492
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All right guys. Leighton blows. But being honest its getting unbelievable. Go to any game day thread and 75% of the posts are about Leighton and how ****** he is.

Great. Nice. Its alright to say it once, but once u say it again... and again... and when someone else says something not even related to it, somehow Leighton comes into it. You guys sound more obsessed over him then the people that like the guy.

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03-06-2010, 03:14 PM
  #493
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It wasn't a game that showcased Leighton's inability to perform at the level we need him to. That would be the previous one. But it's now a 2 game winless streak at a point in the season where the microscope is locked directly on him, regardless of the media's excitement over the deadline and whether it's fair or arbitrary or whatnot.

He'd better come up with something impressive or at least develop some sort of consistency, or his confidence is likely to fall completely off the ledge. As bad as things are now, I do not want to see this in april:

C- xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx
LW- xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx
RW- xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx
D- xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx
G- Boucher, Backlund

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03-06-2010, 03:15 PM
  #494
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All right guys. Leighton blows. But being honest its getting unbelievable. Go to any game day thread and 75% of the posts are about Leighton and how ****** he is.

Great. Nice. Its alright to say it once, but once u say it again... and again... and when someone else says something not even related to it, somehow Leighton comes into it. You guys sound more obsessed over him then the people that like the guy.
I think it has more to do with the fact that he's the guy who is left holding the bag if this season goes down the drain and people are more than aggravated, because again, the goaltending blowing up was everyone's biggest fear back in the summer. Everyone is going to point to Leighton being hung out to dry as the starting goalie as the biggest excuse in a year where there are no excuses.

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03-06-2010, 03:19 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
All right guys. Leighton blows. But being honest its getting unbelievable. Go to any game day thread and 75% of the posts are about Leighton and how ****** he is.

Great. Nice. Its alright to say it once, but once u say it again... and again... and when someone else says something not even related to it, somehow Leighton comes into it. You guys sound more obsessed over him then the people that like the guy.
Pointing out positives would make us too happy.

I think a lot of us are just still PO'd that in our opinion Homer pissed our title chances down the drain, so that manifests itself in GDTs. Sure it sucks to read, but to put the shoe on the other foot, it was also really annoying reading 75% of GDTs talking about needing to trade Carter.

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03-06-2010, 04:41 PM
  #496
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There's a difference between being a NHL starter, and NOT being a NHL starter for a reason.

It's difficult, and only certain guys are capable of filling that role with any consistency. If you're the opposing team and you watch Leighton for 60 minutes, you see rebound after rebound after rebound in the low slot. So, what are you going to do? Just put the puck on him, you know where it's going to end up 90% of the time.
Listen, you're not going to get an argument out of me about the first goal, other than to say that blame needs to be shared on it.

But the rebound talk is stupid a lot of the time. As an example: If I'm squared up to a guy at the face-off circle, and he puts a hard shot at the bottom of the net far-side, the rebound is going somewhere dangerous....that's just the way it is. I don't care how good you are, some rebounds are not going to get controlled, particularly shots at your feet. If you want to fry a goalie for not controlling pucks at his hands and torso, that's a little bit different, though people get carried away with that sometimes too.

The majority of starters in the NHL are not consistently placing the majority of their rebounds where they want them to be. Most of them do it some of the time (i.e. whenever they can). If I listened to fans, I would think that almost every goalie in the NHL has major rebound control issues.

You're also saying the weak goals take away from his highlight saves....treat it like an equation then...don't the highlight saves also take some of the sting off of his weak goals? Or do we get to just discount them entirely because we are annoyed with his earlier gaffs?

Leighton's SVPCT was 94% this game. In an earlier conversation you downplayed the importance of which shots got through, and pretty much spoke like 94% is 94% is 94% (who cares which ones got through, it all comes out to be the same numerically). Now all of a sudden you care how the goalie got to 94%. If Leighton made two less mistakes and two less nice saves and still arrived at 94%, his performance would be a non-issue in your eyes...

Hopefully now are you starting to see why I was saying I would rather take a goalie who makes the routine saves routinely, versus a MAF type of goalie (bonehead mistake one shot miracle save the next)?

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03-06-2010, 04:43 PM
  #497
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Point of interest, the save percentage was .914.

Also, I think there's an argument to be made that our team defense is hugely better this year than last year. I know you watched the game, Sabres were flipping the puck at the net from any angle.

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03-06-2010, 04:54 PM
  #498
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Listen, you're not going to get an argument out of me about the first goal, other than to say that blame needs to be shared on it.
Really don't see how blame for that goal needs to be shared...if Leighton stays in his net and the puck is centered, then Pronger effed up in not blocking the pass. Nothing bad happens if Leighton stays in his crease on that play.

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But the rebound talk is stupid a lot of the time. As an example: If I'm squared up to a guy at the face-off circle, and he puts a hard shot at the bottom of the net far-side, the rebound is going somewhere dangerous....that's just the way it is. I don't care how good you are, some rebounds are not going to get controlled, particularly shots at your feet. If you want to fry a goalie for not controlling pucks at his hands and torso, that's a little bit different, though people get carried away with that sometimes too.
Some rebounds are not going to get controlled, absolutely. That third goal was controllable, but he didn't kick it so it just stayed there. That's what Leighton does...he just lets pucks hit him and they go where they go...it isn't even that he doesn't control rebounds well, he barely tries to control 'em.

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The majority of starters in the NHL are not consistently placing the majority of their rebounds where they want them to be. Most of them do it some of the time (i.e. whenever they can). If I listened to fans, I would think that almost every goalie in the NHL has major rebound control issues.
The majority of real "starters" do not bunt rebounds in the low slot with that level of consistency...or they cease to be "starters."

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You're also saying the weak goals take away from his highlight saves....treat it like an equation then...don't the highlight saves also take some of the sting off of his weak goals? Or do we get to just discount them entirely because we are annoyed with his earlier gaffs?
They do, but if they're in equal proportion...you're good and effed at the end of the day. My biggest problem with Emery was that he NEVER seemed to make the difficult saves. You need your goalie to stop some difficult saves, and not let in a lot of cheapies. Leighton's cheapie quotient has finally begun to go up.

Quote:
Leighton's SVPCT was 94% this game. In an earlier conversation you downplayed the importance of which shots got through, and pretty much spoke like 94% is 94% is 94% (who cares which ones got through, it all comes out to be the same numerically). Now all of a sudden you care how the goalie got to 94%. If Leighton made two less mistakes and two less nice saves and still arrived at 94%, his performance would be a non-issue in your eyes...
You weren't understanding that discussion if you think I particularly care about SVPCT in an individual game. SVPCT in an individual game is a pretty much worthless stat.

Just like a guy going 0/4 in baseball is a worthless stat.

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Hopefully now are you starting to see why I was saying I would rather take a goalie who makes the routine saves routinely, versus a MAF type of goalie (bonehead mistake one shot miracle save the next)?
Well, no, because I still don't believe in the volatility difference between goalies that you seem to think exists out there...and haven't seen any empirical evidence of it.


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03-06-2010, 04:56 PM
  #499
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Point of interest, the save percentage was .914.

Also, I think there's an argument to be made that our team defense is hugely better this year than last year. I know you watched the game, Sabres were flipping the puck at the net from any angle.
I think our team defense has been better all year long (even under Stevens). The last two games, however, we've seen teams just throwing the puck at Leighton...don't know if that's because they are weaker offensive clubs, or because they watched tape and decided that the best way to get goals on him was to just throw the puck at him (consecutive games where bad angle shots on net have ended up goals).

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03-06-2010, 05:05 PM
  #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think our team defense has been better all year long (even under Stevens). The last two games, however, we've seen teams just throwing the puck at Leighton...don't know if that's because they are weaker offensive clubs, or because they watched tape and decided that the best way to get goals on him was to just throw the puck at him (consecutive games where bad angle shots on net have ended up goals).
And both those teams are pretty poor offensively, I mean, what happens when the good teams figure this out?

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