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Old
03-06-2010, 04:42 PM
  #251
Crease
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Why are lottery picks awesome? Because three years from then, you stand a pretty good chance of having a guy on your team putting up 60 points while making $850,000. Beats the socks off of paying some 30+ year old guy $5,000,000 to do the same thing.

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03-06-2010, 04:46 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Why are lottery picks awesome? Because three years from then, you stand a pretty good chance of having a guy on your team putting up 60 points while making $850,000. Beats the socks off of paying some 30+ year old guy $5,000,000 to do the same thing.
Not to mention the increase in assets. Giving up Prospal and Jokinen for 3 or 4 picks is a larger asset than an aging prima dona in Jokinen, and a guy we love, but is at the end of his rope in the NHL.

I doubt anybody on this forum loves Prospal more than I do, I've liked him since Tampa, but we probably could have fetched a low-end first for him, and that is an asset I am willing to take on for Prospal.

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03-06-2010, 04:51 PM
  #253
haohmaru
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Yeah, but lottery picks are a fantasy for the Rangers. No one is (or did) trading a 1st round pick for a rental anymore. A 2nd rounder isn't guaranteed to do much of anything. But, this conversation is turning cyclical tank/don't tank - picks are better than players - how do you know what a pick will do - I'd rather have a ___ pick than ______ player - this team won't do crap in the playoffs - let's tank - what if they do well - blah blah blah

Hockey Future has the Rangers at #3 in their organizational rankings for prospects and they aren't biased like these boards are. That, to me, tells me the Rangers are headed in the right direction even if that means we don't do squat this year.

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03-06-2010, 04:56 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by haohmaru
Yeah, but lottery picks are a fantasy for the Rangers.
Yep. The ticket prices on the Playoff Invoices are enough to prove that.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru
Hockey Future has the Rangers at #3 in their organizational rankings for prospects and they aren't biased like these boards are. That, to me, tells me the Rangers are headed in the right direction even if that means we don't do squat this year.
I agree. The cupboard is filled nicely. The one thing we lack is that elite scorer or playmaker, but we can't fault management for what happened to Cherepanov. I don't think many of us would be clinging to Hall or Senguin dreams if we had a healthy Cherepanov slotted on our first line next year.

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03-06-2010, 05:02 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Yep. The ticket prices on the Playoff Invoices are enough to prove that.



I agree. The cupboard is filled nicely. The one thing we lack is that elite scorer or playmaker, but we can't fault management for what happened to Cherepanov. I don't think many of us would be clinging to Hall or Senguin dreams if we had a healthy Cherepanov slotted on our first line next year.
Backstrom and Kovalchuk signing in July.

What a pipe dream.

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03-06-2010, 05:04 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Wasn't Jokinen a top 10 pick (yes, 3rd overall)? I can agree with hoping/wanting/wishing for a elite top 5 talent, but expecting someone in the middle 2nd round to be that much better than Jokinen isn't terribly realistic - particularly with scouting and player development being so much more important than it used to be. Every NHL franchise worth a crap knows that they need good young/cheap talent to be competitive.

I know Jokinen isn't your favorite player, but he brings things to the table that the Rangers sorely needed - a fairly legitimate 2nd line.
That's one way of looking at his worth and value to the team. The reason I particularly dislike players like Jokinen and Gomez is because, IMHO, they bring more cons than pros. Their offensive output isn't worth all of the flaws they bring. Gomez worked for a team like NJ, which was incredibly strong at every position and could mask his many deficiencies.

But when he's not on a team that great, it's not the same. These players are not efficient. Their points come at a price. Poor defense, turnovers, and worst of all, an enormous amount of wasted possessions and offensive zone opportunities. And I've held this opinion of both of these players long before they were ever associated with the Rangers.

It's not just bad luck that Jokinen has played in 863 regular season, and just 6 playoff games. If your team is built in a way where he's one of your key players, you're not going to go very far.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Hockey Future has the Rangers at #3 in their organizational rankings for prospects and they aren't biased like these boards are. That, to me, tells me the Rangers are headed in the right direction even if that means we don't do squat this year.
If I recall, the Blues are ranked #1. You'll note they are having a down year, and I know that they faced coaching problems, but I believe there's more to it. The Blues have the same problem the Rangers do.

They have a wealth of great young defense, and some very, very attractive forward prospects. But they don't have that one great forward. Maybe it will be Eller (for the record, I think he will be a very good second liner), but they don't right now, and it's hurting them offensively.

Personally, if I was doing the rankings, the Blues would not be first, and the Rangers would not be third. They'd both be in the top ten, because they each have a lot of good prospects. But they don't have many great prospects, especially where forwards are concerned.

The problem with ranking teams in terms of organizational prospect strength is that many of the best prospects don't stay prospects for very long. They get to the NHL in a hurry, and become very good players by the age of 22-23. So a team's prospect pool may not be the best, but their NHL team can be carrying one, two, or sometimes even more very, very good young players that are of prospect age.

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Old
03-06-2010, 05:05 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Panfork View Post
Backstrom and Kovalchuk signing in July.

What a pipe dream.
How about some good old Canadian boys? I hate to be that guy but there's something about Canadian leadership that just makes me tingle in all the right places.

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03-06-2010, 05:06 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I agree. The cupboard is filled nicely. The one thing we lack is that elite scorer or playmaker, but we can't fault management for what happened to Cherepanov. I don't think many of us would be clinging to Hall or Senguin dreams if we had a healthy Cherepanov slotted on our first line next year.
That's assuming Cherepanov would be worthy of being on the first line. That wasn't a given by any means.

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03-06-2010, 05:08 PM
  #259
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Which is exactly why a team with very little chance to do anything in the playoffs and no elite prospects should want to have as many chances of finding the one or two guys that might slip into that 2nd round. Increasingly rare, sure, but not impossible. I like those chances more than the chances of Jokinen and Prospal leading us to any kind of playoff success.
It must be said again: there was no way under the sun that the Rangers were going to be sellers and trade Prospal, et al, for a 2nd round pick. Our bigger contracts are not tradeable and we are stuck with them.

Frankly, I am glad to have kept him and make an honest run at the playoffs, even if we go quickly out, Its so easy and so noble to sit here now and say that its no big deal with we don't make the playoffs. Come the first round in April and we are not in it...its going to be a miserable time.

2nd round picks are just important for getting 3rd liners and 3rd pair D...sometimes you get lucky and one develops into a 2nd line player or second pair D. Rarely anymore do they become more than that.

Also seems that every year scouts seem to say that there is little difference between slots 6 or so to 20. The trick is to make the right pick and develop him.

If we seriously wanted a lottery pick, we should not have signed Gaborik and not consider making a run at Kovy this summer. Are there generational talents in this years draft? Doesn't appear to be. Excellent players, yes but future Crosby and Ovechkins, no.

Ranger drafting has gotten much better over the last couple of years. We have a solid core of good young players. Its important to create a culture of success and winning for young players to develop in. That means making the playoffs.

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03-06-2010, 05:09 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That's assuming Cherepanov would be worthy of being on the first line. That wasn't a given by any means.
Definitely not a given. But he was our best shot at developing a first line guy for the next 5 years or so.

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03-06-2010, 05:16 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
It must be said again: there was no way under the sun that the Rangers were going to be sellers and trade Prospal, et al, for a 2nd round pick. Our bigger contracts are not tradeable and we are stuck with them.
Of course there was no way. Failing to act in the best interest of the team is something the Rangers do all to well.

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Frankly, I am glad to have kept him and make an honest run at the playoffs, even if we go quickly out, Its so easy and so noble to sit here now and say that its no big deal with we don't make the playoffs. Come the first round in April and we are not in it...its going to be a miserable time.
I was pretty miserable in the first round last year, knowing that my team had given up a second round pick to be out played and toyed with by a heartless Caps team.

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2nd round picks are just important for getting 3rd liners and 3rd pair D...sometimes you get lucky and one develops into a 2nd line player or second pair D. Rarely anymore do they become more than that.
And sometimes you get Duncan Keith or Shea Weber. Or Mike Cammalleri. I'd say that's more likely than the Rangers winning a playoff series against Washington or Pittsburgh, which is who I expect they'll be playing in the first round.

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Also seems that every year scouts seem to say that there is little difference between slots 6 or so to 20. The trick is to make the right pick and develop him.
When the Rangers develop ONE first line forward, I'll allow myself to begin thinking about the possibility of them being capable of doing that on some kind of regular basis.

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If we seriously wanted a lottery pick, we should not have signed Gaborik and not consider making a run at Kovy this summer. Are there generational talents in this years draft? Doesn't appear to be. Excellent players, yes but future Crosby and Ovechkins, no.
And yet they'd still be our best prospects.

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Ranger drafting has gotten much better over the last couple of years. We have a solid core of good young players. Its important to create a culture of success and winning for young players to develop in. That means making the playoffs.
It's hard to create a culture of success, and even harder to win anything, when your players simply aren't good enough. It makes a lot more sense to acquire the players you're going to need to win, and then attempt to create a culture of succes, rather than march ahead, poorly armed, and try to force success with players that aren't good enough to achieve it.

Case in point, the Chicago Blackhawks. First time in the playoffs, Conference Finals. They didn't have any experience. They just had great players. What good is it teaching experience to the wrong players?

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03-06-2010, 05:17 PM
  #262
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How about some good old Canadian boys? I hate to be that guy but there's something about Canadian leadership that just makes me tingle in all the right places.
I hope that was intentional

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03-06-2010, 05:19 PM
  #263
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I hope that was intentional
I always choose my words carefully.

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03-06-2010, 05:28 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That's one way of looking at his worth and value to the team. The reason I particularly dislike players like Jokinen and Gomez is because, IMHO, they bring more cons than pros. Their offensive output isn't worth all of the flaws they bring. Gomez worked for a team like NJ, which was incredibly strong at every position and could mask his many deficiencies.

But when he's not on a team that great, it's not the same. These players are not efficient. Their points come at a price. Poor defense, turnovers, and worst of all, an enormous amount of wasted possessions and offensive zone opportunities. And I've held this opinion of both of these players long before they were ever associated with the Rangers.

It's not just bad luck that Jokinen has played in 863 regular season, and just 6 playoff games. If your team is built in a way where he's one of your key players, you're not going to go very far .
You can attribute some of that to Jokinen, but it's not his fault he's played for crap organizations (Florida, Isles, bad Kings, etc...) and he's hardly alone (Shane Doan, anyone?) in that department. Besides, Gomez is largely the same in your estimation and he won a Cup. I'd take Jokinen over Gomez, Scott really rubbed me the wrong way.

Jokinen isn't a franchise player, but he's not a bad investment if his contract isn't terrible and he's centering your 2nd line. Besides, we got rid of Kotalik.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If I recall, the Blues are ranked #1. You'll note they are having a down year, and I know that they faced coaching problems, but I believe there's more to it. The Blues have the same problem the Rangers do.

They have a wealth of great young defense, and some very, very attractive forward prospects. But they don't have that one great forward. Maybe it will be Eller (for the record, I think he will be a very good second liner), but they don't right now, and it's hurting them offensively.

Personally, if I was doing the rankings, the Blues would not be first, and the Rangers would not be third. They'd both be in the top ten, because they each have a lot of good prospects. But they don't have many great prospects, especially where forwards are concerned.

The problem with ranking teams in terms of organizational prospect strength is that many of the best prospects don't stay prospects for very long. They get to the NHL in a hurry, and become very good players by the age of 22-23. So a team's prospect pool may not be the best, but their NHL team can be carrying one, two, or sometimes even more very, very good young players that are of prospect age.
Lots of teams have the same problem (scoring) that the Rangers do - Devils, Bruins, Coyotes, Blues, etc... It's an epidemic.

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03-06-2010, 06:19 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
You can attribute some of that to Jokinen, but it's not his fault he's played for crap organizations (Florida, Isles, bad Kings, etc...) and he's hardly alone (Shane Doan, anyone?) in that department. Besides, Gomez is largely the same in your estimation and he won a Cup. I'd take Jokinen over Gomez, Scott really rubbed me the wrong way.

Jokinen isn't a franchise player, but he's not a bad investment if his contract isn't terrible and he's centering your 2nd line. Besides, we got rid of Kotalik.
Gomez won a Cup because on the Devils he was a role player. He was hidden by their talent and their system.

Investing in players with poor hockey sense is the worst thing you can do for your team, and players like Gomez and Jokinen are about as dumb as top six players get. Playing with players like that is also detrimental for youth. They can't possibly play their own game well when bums like Gomez or Jokinen are wasting so much potential offensive zone time.

Signing Jokinen would be a big, big mistake. A team without talent needs to be smarter than the opposition. When Jokinen is on the ice, that's a battle you aren't likely to win.

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Lots of teams have the same problem (scoring) that the Rangers do - Devils, Bruins, Coyotes, Blues, etc... It's an epidemic.
Bruins didn't have that problem when they had Kessel...and with Toronto's pick, they'll be able to fix it.

The Yotes...with Turris, there wasn't any forward that was so great there. They got unlucky.

Devils have Parise and Zajac, plus Tedenby on the way. They'll be fine.

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03-06-2010, 06:24 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Gomez won a Cup because on the Devils he was a role player. He was hidden by their talent and their system.

Investing in players with poor hockey sense is the worst thing you can do for your team, and players like Gomez and Jokinen are about as dumb as top six players get. Playing with players like that is also detrimental for youth. They can't possibly play their own game well when bums like Gomez or Jokinen are wasting so much potential offensive zone time.

Signing Jokinen would be a big, big mistake. A team without talent needs to be smarter than the opposition. When Jokinen is on the ice, that's a battle you aren't likely to win.



Bruins didn't have that problem when they had Kessel...and with Toronto's pick, they'll be able to fix it.

The Yotes...with Turris, there wasn't any forward that was so great there. They got unlucky.

Devils have Parise and Zajac, plus Tedenby on the way. They'll be fine.
Bruins overachieved BIG TIME last year. everything they touched went in, and Thomas was playing like a God. theres always an overachiever every year...last year it was the Bruins...this is what you should expect from them, they arent that great of a team.

The Yotes are that team this year IMHO.

Tedenby is very small, like freakishly small...I dont know if his game translates at the NHL level... I guess we'll find out.

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03-06-2010, 06:29 PM
  #267
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Bruins overachieved BIG TIME last year. everything they touched went in, and Thomas was playing like a God. theres always an overachiever every year...last year it was the Bruins...this is what you should expect from them, they arent that great of a team.
They lost their best goalscorer, and had a bunch of injuries this season. If they draft Hall or Seguin, it will be a huge boost to their team. Also, Rask is very good. Their problem is Thomas' contract will screw them over in a year or two.

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The Yotes are that team this year IMHO.
I agree, they aren't that great.

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Tedenby is very small, like freakishly small...I dont know if his game translates at the NHL level... I guess we'll find out.
I think he'll be fine. He's small, but he's very fast and very SMART. He understands where to be on the ice, and when. That's how small players evade punishment.

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03-06-2010, 06:34 PM
  #268
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They lost their best goalscorer, and had a bunch of injuries this season. If they draft Hall or Seguin, it will be a huge boost to their team. Also, Rask is very good. Their problem is Thomas' contract will screw them over in a year or two.
Maybe, maybe not, we will see...

Quote:

I agree, they aren't that great.



I think he'll be fine. He's small, but he's very fast and very SMART. He understands where to be on the ice, and when. That's how small players evade punishment.
How many players his size are prolific players in the NHL? St. Louis, Ribiero, Gionta...that's about it man.

his size is an issue...as is Ryan Borques.

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03-06-2010, 06:43 PM
  #269
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How many players his size are prolific players in the NHL? St. Louis, Ribiero, Gionta...that's about it man.

his size is an issue...as is Ryan Borques.
There's a few others. Sullivan, Cammalleri, Saku Koivu, PM Bouchard, this one kid, Patty Kane. Ray Whitney, Briere, Kariya. You're going to see more small guys as long as the rules stay the way they are now.

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03-11-2010, 10:47 AM
  #270
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Isn't 'Staying the Course' working out well?

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