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#63: Flyers @ Sabres - March 5, 2010 - 7:30 PM (ET)

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03-06-2010, 06:09 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Point of interest, the save percentage was .914.

Also, I think there's an argument to be made that our team defense is hugely better this year than last year. I know you watched the game, Sabres were flipping the puck at the net from any angle.
.914 is still decent. I agree that our defense is better than last year. I only saw the first period of the game actually, I had to catch the rest in highlights. I was going off of a number someone gave before (94%). I guess that was at the end of regulation?

That last goal was not Leighton's fault. Pucks bounce off of leg pads (particularly ones that hit in the knee area, where the pad is bounciest). That won't change, I don't care who's wearing them.

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03-06-2010, 06:10 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
.914 is still decent. I agree that our defense is better than last year. I only saw the first period of the game actually, I had to catch the rest in highlights. I was going off of a number someone gave before (94%). I guess that was at the end of regulation?

That last goal was not Leighton's fault. Pucks bounce off of leg pads (particularly ones that hit in the knee area, where the pad is bounciest). That won't change, I don't care who's wearing them.
The point is that you don't bounce them off of leg pads directly into the slot.

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03-06-2010, 06:11 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think our team defense has been better all year long (even under Stevens). The last two games, however, we've seen teams just throwing the puck at Leighton...don't know if that's because they are weaker offensive clubs, or because they watched tape and decided that the best way to get goals on him was to just throw the puck at him (consecutive games where bad angle shots on net have ended up goals).
He's very good, generally, at making the first stop so trying too much finesse is a mistake. The way to take him down (and take him down rather easily) is to pepper him with shots and have guys willing to do the dirty work to get at the rebounds. Kimmo and Pronger know what they have to do to protect Leighton but even they can't be everywhere at once. Rebounds are going to kill this team in the playoffs if the other teams just throw the puck at the net whenever possible.

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03-06-2010, 06:17 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
.914 is still decent. I agree that our defense is better than last year. I only saw the first period of the game actually, I had to catch the rest in highlights. I was going off of a number someone gave before (94%). I guess that was at the end of regulation?

That last goal was not Leighton's fault. Pucks bounce off of leg pads (particularly ones that hit in the knee area, where the pad is bounciest). That won't change, I don't care who's wearing them.
Absolutely...which is why you try to kick 'em a bit so they have enough oomph to get out of the danger zone. When you just sit there like a statue and let it bounce off of you (which Leighton does on the majority of his saves) it's much more likely (unless the shot was really hard) to settle right in the danger zone right in front of you.

I'm not saying this is easy...it's not. But it's also a gig that only 30 guys can do at a time in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
He's very good, generally, at making the first stop so trying too much finesse is a mistake. The way to take him down (and take him down rather easily) is to pepper him with shots and have guys willing to do the dirty work to get at the rebounds. Kimmo and Pronger know what they have to do to protect Leighton but even they can't be everywhere at once. Rebounds are going to kill this team in the playoffs if the other teams just throw the puck at the net whenever possible.
Well, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the playoffs are going to be a **** show if we play anyone with a modicum of offensive talent, and a halfway decent coach. I wouldn't even have my forwards go all the way to the net, I'd want them hanging in that soft area ~5 yds in front of the net and just wait for Leighton to leave the puck there. It's seriously 5-10 a game, you get to a few of those and you have golden opportunities.

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03-06-2010, 06:19 PM
  #505
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Why haven't we tried something like this. Seems like a very good mix, especially on the top two lines.

Gagne - Giroux - Briere
Leino - Carter - Hartnell
JVR - Richards - Asham/Carcillo
Asham/Carcillo - Betts - Lappy

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03-06-2010, 06:26 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmchairGM View Post
Why haven't we tried something like this. Seems like a very good mix, especially on the top two lines.

Gagne - Giroux - Briere
Leino - Carter - Hartnell
JVR - Richards - Asham/Carcillo
Asham/Carcillo - Betts - Lappy
I do think that JVR and Richards would be a nice combo and hopefully we do that down the line (after this year), but I'm not a fan of breaking up Leino-Carter-Briere after they had 1 game together and did great plus that Giroux line would be seriously lightweight.

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03-06-2010, 06:31 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Really don't see how blame for that goal needs to be shared...if Leighton stays in his net and the puck is centered, then Pronger effed up in not blocking the pass. Nothing bad happens if Leighton stays in his crease on that play.
Pronger let Vanek skate directly at the puck. He didn't buy Leighton any time at all, which he should've if he was going to ask him to play it. Pronger is a slow dude, if everybody always did their job on D nobody would ever score, so I'm not gonna kill him for it, but I'm not putting all the blame on Leighton either (though your point about leaving it in the corner is legit).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Some rebounds are not going to get controlled, absolutely. That third goal was controllable, but he didn't kick it so it just stayed there. That's what Leighton does...he just lets pucks hit him and they go where they go...it isn't even that he doesn't control rebounds well, he barely tries to control 'em.
I would want to watch it again, but if I remember there was a pass through the high slot to the far face off circle, and the shot on was pretty hard, to the far-side leg pad. That's not a save that will routinely result in a controlled rebound. There just aren't that many guys that have feet that quick.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The majority of real "starters" do not bunt rebounds in the low slot with that level of consistency...or they cease to be "starters."
If by "real" you mean "worthy to start in the eyes of HFBoards and Jester", then there are only like ~15 starters in the NHL. The other 15 clubs have their Leightons. If you're starting in the NHL, you're an NHL starter as far as I am concerned.

I am not saying Leighton's control is at the better end of the spectrum, it clearly isn't. I am merely saying the rebound control drum gets pounded at some inappropriate times, for example, that overtime goal last night.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You weren't understanding that discussion if you think I particularly care about SVPCT in an individual game. SVPCT in an individual game is a pretty much worthless stat.

Just like a guy going 0/4 in baseball is a worthless stat.
No, I understood your points in the earlier discussion. One game can be a microcosm of an entire season of goal tending. The same way if a career .250 hitter goes 1/4, hits a fastball that he always hits, strikes out twice on a curve he always strikes out on and grounds out on a sinker when he's been doing that all season, then that game was a good microcosm of his season.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, no, because I still don't believe in the volatility difference between goalies that you seem to think exists out there...and haven't seen any empirical evidence of it.
If you think all NHL goalies are more-or-less equally consistent, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

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03-06-2010, 06:47 PM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The point is that you don't bounce them off of leg pads directly into the slot.
If you're speaking generally, then yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Absolutely...which is why you try to kick 'em a bit so they have enough oomph to get out of the danger zone. When you just sit there like a statue and let it bounce off of you (which Leighton does on the majority of his saves) it's much more likely (unless the shot was really hard) to settle right in the danger zone right in front of you.
99/100 goalie coaches are going to tell you that you do not want to kick at pucks unless you have to reach with your foot to make the save. You want to control rebounds with the angle of your pads, so that they form a V and deflect out to the boards. When you start kicking the angle of your pad becomes closer to perpendicular to the path of the puck, which..............spits out rebounds like crazy.

Also, you can't kick a puck with your knee (where the puck hit him).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm not saying this is easy...it's not. But it's also a gig that only 30 guys can do at a time in the world.
I think, at the level you expect, the number is <30. There are 30 NHL starting jobs...so perhaps your idea of what the minimum skill set to be an NHL starter is a bit off.

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03-06-2010, 07:04 PM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Isn't this the second time you've used this line?


There's nothing wrong with calling out the management for not upholding the management staff to the standards the organization has.
Yes it is. I don't know, I just think being a fan of a team you should be a fan of the team. It seems like all anyone does on these boards is talk about how terrible the players on the team are and how awful the management is. I'm not saying not to criticize, but look at the topics and the posts. A majority of them is how awful the team is and such.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, because the "Leighton isn't a good goalie" meme just developed...the only reason it's come to a head is because we didn't do anything to address the fact that we're relying on a crappy goalie, not because folks opinion of Leighton has changed demonstrably.

It should, Stevens was a crappy coach...and Leighton is a crappy goalie.

Give me a break. They haven't won a Cup since the mid-effing-70s and they get a carte blanche from criticism and if you do criticize them you should jump ship to the arch-rival.

1975

Playoff hunt, absolutely. Shot to win it all...only based on "Anything can happen" logic. That gets you far.
I know Leighton isn't a good goalie, but there really wasn't anything that could be done without shuffling the entire deck to get a different goalie. I would have liked a better goalie than Leighton, but not at the cost of Carter or whatever else teams were asking. Leighton is a good enough goalie on this team that when they are playing to their potential they are fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
First off I am not panicing. I am commenting on the goaltending the last 2 games which has not been good. What do you want us to say? Oh well **** happens?
I havent liked the way the Flyers have dealt and treated the goaltending position for 20 plus years. The list is long of the goalies we have had that have not been good enough and the opportunites to get someone better have been there and they chose not to. Do I like it? Of course I dont. Am I going to switch allegiances because of it? are you ****ing kidding me? REALLY? I have been a fan of this team since I was 8 years old. I will die a Flyer fan.
That wasn't really directed specifically at you, it was more of a general statement toward the board at large (see the beginning of this post).

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03-06-2010, 08:07 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yes it is. I don't know, I just think being a fan of a team you should be a fan of the team. It seems like all anyone does on these boards is talk about how terrible the players on the team are and how awful the management is. I'm not saying not to criticize, but look at the topics and the posts. A majority of them is how awful the team is and such.

Part of being a fan of the team is to get pissed off and hold those accountable when they fall short of expectations. The only year no one was disappointed with this team was in 2008, and the only reason was because of what happened the two previous years. That's not the Flyers, that's Philadelphia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post

I know Leighton isn't a good goalie, but there really wasn't anything that could be done without shuffling the entire deck to get a different goalie. I would have liked a better goalie than Leighton, but not at the cost of Carter or whatever else teams were asking. Leighton is a good enough goalie on this team that when they are playing to their potential they are fine.
It's not about not making a trade, it's more about the position they were put in. The Flyers were in every trade rumor during trade season, they come away with Ville Leino. They tried...they couldn't do it. It wasn't lack of attempts, it was having nothing to trade.

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03-06-2010, 09:32 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's not about not making a trade, it's more about the position they were put in. The Flyers were in every trade rumor during trade season, they come away with Ville Leino. They tried...they couldn't do it. It wasn't lack of attempts, it was having nothing to trade.
I agree that the Flyers have no assets and will be in trouble down the line. But if they can come away with a Cup in the next three years it will be ok. Outside of the three years, when this team will look very different, I think they will have to be in a rebuild mode. They have a good window now and in the near future to win it all, and trading draft picks for that doesn't bother me. I'll take a Cup now in exchange for five years of bottom feeding. Woulda been nice to add a goal or winger/center for the third line, but it wasn't in the cards. Let's hope Leighton stays on his game and the boys can pull out some key wins down the stretch. Pronger is an epic playoff guy and I think it will come down to him putting the team on his shoulders in the playoffs.

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03-06-2010, 10:06 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I agree that the Flyers have no assets and will be in trouble down the line. But if they can come away with a Cup in the next three years it will be ok. Outside of the three years, when this team will look very different, I think they will have to be in a rebuild mode. They have a good window now and in the near future to win it all, and trading draft picks for that doesn't bother me. I'll take a Cup now in exchange for five years of bottom feeding. Woulda been nice to add a goal or winger/center for the third line, but it wasn't in the cards. Let's hope Leighton stays on his game and the boys can pull out some key wins down the stretch. Pronger is an epic playoff guy and I think it will come down to him putting the team on his shoulders in the playoffs.
If the Flyers weren't primed to win the Cup in the upcoming playoffs, they've certainly been primed to be on the verge within 3 years...for about 35 years. Complaining stops when they're holding the Stanley Cup.

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03-06-2010, 10:30 PM
  #513
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Bad goal Mike, bad turn over by Carle and Hartnell is just an epic fail every time he is on the ice..

I could not even make my self write a comment after the game. We basically gave the game to Sabres.


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03-08-2010, 05:12 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That play isn't dangerous until Leighton comes out of the net. THAT is when that play turns into a cluster-F.

So, for starters, no, Pronger isn't really to blame for what eventually happened.

So, Leighton misreads whether he can get to the puck: F up #1.

Then, Leighton lazily makes his way back to his net: F up #2.

While lazily making his way back to the net, Leighton didn't square himself to Vanek with the puck in the corner: F up #3.

Pronger letting the puck go down the corner and thinking his goalie might be able to get it? Misjudgment, but Leighton can read (and know his own abilities) whether he can get to the puck in the first place...get his ass back to the net as quickly as possible...and face the shooter...
Have to disagree on this. Watched it several times and at least half the blame is on Pronger.

He was side by side with Vanek, who is not the fastest player, at the blue line. He COULD have just done his job and skated with Vanek into the corner. Maybe even let Vanek get to the puck and laid a beating on him?

Instead, he lazily points to Leighton to take the puck, which must have caught Leighton by surprise - and delayed his reaction.

I agree that Leighton needs to get there faster if he's going, but it is also Pronger's responsibility to follow the play more closely and take Vanek out in the corner.

If Pronger had been hustling at all, he would have met Vanek in the corner, taken him out, and there would have been no pass/shot out to the slot.

Not a great goal by any standards, but it's not all Leighton.

Pronger totally F'd up too, at the start, middle and end of the play.

He's playing pretty well most of the time, but that was not his finest moment.

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03-08-2010, 07:06 PM
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Have to disagree on this. Watched it several times and at least half the blame is on Pronger.

He was side by side with Vanek, who is not the fastest player, at the blue line. He COULD have just done his job and skated with Vanek into the corner. Maybe even let Vanek get to the puck and laid a beating on him?

Instead, he lazily points to Leighton to take the puck, which must have caught Leighton by surprise - and delayed his reaction.

I agree that Leighton needs to get there faster if he's going, but it is also Pronger's responsibility to follow the play more closely and take Vanek out in the corner.

If Pronger had been hustling at all, he would have met Vanek in the corner, taken him out, and there would have been no pass/shot out to the slot.

Not a great goal by any standards, but it's not all Leighton.

Pronger totally F'd up too, at the start, middle and end of the play.

He's playing pretty well most of the time, but that was not his finest moment.
I saw it once in real time and it looked lazy too. After watching it again I think he wanted to stay near the half boards to give Leighton a pass, as opposed to chasing Vanek and leaving Leighton with nowhere to go with the puck.

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