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4th line. Love it? Hate it?

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Old
03-08-2010, 09:10 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Hate it. Shelley has to be of the worst players in the NHL. Prust is Ortmeyer minus the ability to kill penalties, and Boyle is from Boston College.
Shelley knows where he is on the ice at least. He doesn't get lost in the defensive zone, and he puts himself in decent position in the offensive zone. He may not bring much of a skillset to the table, but he skates hard enough and has enough hockey sense to warrant being in the lineup. More than I can say about Brashear, and Orr when he was here too (Not that Orr didn't skate hard, but man he was clueless in every other facet of the game. )

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Old
03-08-2010, 09:14 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
The Rangers 4th line this year is stupid. 4th liners are supposed to be young kids who don't have top end talent that will hit anything, keep pressure in the O zone, and don't make any money. That's what made Betts/Orts/Moore/Ward/etc at any given point so good.

So you have Voros and Brashear who combined could have brought Alex Tangauy or Seidenberg here, then you have Shelley who is OK but wasn't worth the pick. Boyle is OK but has limited upside.

Torts promised more scoring from the 4th line but it's on pace to be much worse than last year and probably the worst offensive 4th line since the lockout.

You mean to tell me some combo of Dane Byers/Dale Weisse/Pa Paranteau/Brodie DuPont and the now traded Jordan Owens or even Tom Pyatt can't play 5 minutes a night at the NHL level? Gimme a break!
I don't think there's anything that says a good teams 4th line has to be full of young kids. I can't believe you just actually dropped Alex Tanguay's name either, he's played with Lecavalier all season and been mediocore at best. Imagine how bad he'd be here playing with Drury or someone like that. The 4th line plays "young", they have the best forecheck on the team and they look hungry. That's all I ask of my 4th line...usually they'll get some goals if they're that way and learn to play with each other. Had we had a 4th line of Prust-Boyle-Shelley all along, they'd probably have better chemistry and be able to get a few more garbage goals. 3 players that belong on the 4th line and fit the 4th line perfectly. No Lisin, Kotalik, etc. polluting the 4th line.

I also don't remember Torts promising scoring from the 4th line at all. He promised more scoring as a whole, and said the 4th line would get less time as a result. Neither of those have happened, but never do I remember him saying the 4th line would produce more.

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Old
03-08-2010, 09:16 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
We had a fourth line that didn't need to be touched. But Torts is an a-hole.

This one is fine I guess. Better than other combos we've had this season.
Yeah, Torts is an a-hole when Sather's the one that shops for the groceries, not Torts. Torts didn't like Betts, and 28 other teams didn't like him either, and the only one that showed any interested made him try out for the team. Orr went to Toronto and actually gets used correctly in more of an instigative role by Ron Wilson, but it's whatever. Sjostrom was going to be pushing $1mil per year(yes, I know we got Brashear, two wrongs don't make a right...) but they opted to try and save money there and not cut ties with Voros yet and try some other people there. I'll take Prust at 525K over Sjo at his contract anyday. It's the same player minus the PK and shootouts, two things we don't really need him for anyway.

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03-08-2010, 09:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Yeah, Torts is an a-hole when Sather's the one that shops for the groceries, not Torts.
I hate when people write this, it's a ridiculous oversimplification. Coaches often have input. New coaches often have a lot of input. In this case, we know Tortorella had a lot of input.

-- Despite your statement, you admitted in your post that Tortorella didn't want Betts. The fact that there wasn't a lot of interest from other teams is irrelevant; we should know our players best. And he's having a good season with one of our rivals. Not that he would've made a big difference, but the point was whether or not Tortorella had input.

-- Tortorella didn't want Orr and wanted Brashear. That's a fact.

-- Regarding Sjostrom, I don't believe any reports suggested whether the thrust of the decision came from Tortorella or Sather or both.

So...

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Old
03-08-2010, 09:58 PM
  #30
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The whining about Sjostrom and Betts is still going on? They were only good for the PK and, guess what, our PK really isn't that much worse without them. Boyle's defensive game is really underrated because he's a big, slow guy which is all people notice and I can't see how Prust isn't loved on these boards. Shelley is meh but at least he's better than Brashear. These guys don't really score but they're a physical fourth line when the rest of our team is pretty soft. Like whoever said before, our problems start at the top. This fourth line is fine for what they are. They're not the reason why we suck.

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Old
03-08-2010, 10:19 PM
  #31
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Over The Cap-Moore and Ortmeyer weren't kids but they were still young players early in their career. They all lost a year because of the lockout so they were in their mid 20s.

I don't mind Prust, he's cool and a useful part and hey, he came here for Kotalik and Higgins Amnesty.

Torts DID say the 4th line should be able to chip in a goal once in a while and traded Korpi because of his "limited offensive ability" among other things.

And yes, I did drop Tangauy's name just as an example. You take the $2.8 million tied up to Brasehar and Voros and you have another useful part or two like CARRYING A FREAKING 7th DMan!

Is it really hard for Dane Byers and comp to play 5 minutes a night in the NHL? He's a better player than Voros. Dale Weisse is another guy who is having a pretty good year who can play 5 minutes a night and fight.

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Old
03-08-2010, 11:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
Over The Cap-Moore and Ortmeyer weren't kids but they were still young players early in their career. They all lost a year because of the lockout so they were in their mid 20s.

I don't mind Prust, he's cool and a useful part and hey, he came here for Kotalik and Higgins Amnesty.

Torts DID say the 4th line should be able to chip in a goal once in a while and traded Korpi because of his "limited offensive ability" among other things.

And yes, I did drop Tangauy's name just as an example. You take the $2.8 million tied up to Brasehar and Voros and you have another useful part or two like CARRYING A FREAKING 7th DMan!

Is it really hard for Dane Byers and comp to play 5 minutes a night in the NHL? He's a better player than Voros. Dale Weisse is another guy who is having a pretty good year who can play 5 minutes a night and fight.
You benefit from having Shelley and Prust over Weise and Byers because they're not vulnerable to rookie mistakes. Torts doesn't have much patience with his bottom 6, and I'd venture to say our 4th line would be getting less than 3 minutes a game if Byers and/or Weise were a regular part of it.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:13 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Have you watched this line or is your hate for aggressive hockey just taken over? The guys have been fantastic in the last 3 games and look great together
I agree. They have been the only line consistently able to keep the puck in the offensive zone. Too bad they have little talent to set something up or finish.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:16 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
The Rangers 4th line this year is stupid. 4th liners are supposed to be young kids who don't have top end talent that will hit anything, keep pressure in the O zone, and don't make any money.
Wow. Talk about not grasping what winning teams are doing.

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03-09-2010, 12:18 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Wow. Talk about not grasping what winning teams are doing.
We're Rangers fans. You think we know what a winning team looks like?

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:31 AM
  #36
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chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Hate it. Shelley has to be of the worst players in the NHL. Prust is Ortmeyer minus the ability to kill penalties, and Boyle is from Boston College.

good thing the best prospect in our system is from bc

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03-09-2010, 12:35 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by bscharf View Post
good thing the best prospect in our system is from bc
not the U of wisconsin?

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:45 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
We're Rangers fans. You think we know what a winning team looks like?


In any case, not signing Betts was ridiculous. He makes pretty much every 4th line in the league better and improves most every PK.

My beef was only with the 'young players' part. In general most successful teams have a lot of experience on their 4th line, and even more so in the playoffs.

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:38 AM
  #39
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I think they're doing great. You have a heavyweight that can fight anyone in the league and either hold his own or beat most fighters and a middle weight who will take on Goliath with his bare hands who can also skate and hit.

Boyle is doing well too.

I like the line.

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Old
03-09-2010, 09:04 AM
  #40
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The 4th line is supposed to forecheck hard, play physical, and spend some time in the offensive zone. Although the 4th line may struggle from time to time playing against some of the more potent offenses in the league, as we saw against Pittsburgh last week, they've done their job for the most part.

Last year's 4th line was fine, but they got pinned in their own zone way too often. Sjostrom, Betts, and Orr were a combined -31, and that's way too many goals for a 4th line to be giving up.

In comparison, the 4th line right now is bigger and more physical than last year's 4th line. Since they were traded here, Prust is +2, Shelley is even, and Boyle is -6. Not bad at all considering 2 out of the 3 players on last year's 4th line had minus numbers in the double digits.

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03-09-2010, 09:50 AM
  #41
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what does combined -31 mean? Why would you add that up? If a line was +3 on the night, and each of teh three players were on the ice and were each +3, you'd say they're +9. What relevance does +9 mean? It's like saying X and X combined for 200 points last year when as a pair it was only 75 goals.

That trio was likely closer to -10, which is the excess amount of goals scored at even strength while that trio was together on the ice. That would be the only relevant number to me. And yes, it's not a great number, but at the same time Renny too often put them out there against guys who can score, and even if they held them here and there, they can't 100% stop the Crosbys of the world from scoring and their chances of scoring a goal against would be minimal. If Renney used them solely as a third line, getting 4-5 minutes of ES time, their +/- would be less relevant to the conversation and would be more in-line with many fourth line players.

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03-09-2010, 09:59 AM
  #42
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The 4th line is the least of my worries when it comes to this team. We have a lot more to work on and a cap hit that challenges a lot of what we can do.

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Old
03-09-2010, 10:13 AM
  #43
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I think I will wait and give my answer after the Flyers game. I hope i'm not the only fan who has this game highlighted on the calender.

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Old
03-09-2010, 11:00 AM
  #44
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Now there are some people bashing the fourth line?

I like the line. They provide a lot of energy.

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03-09-2010, 12:02 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
what does combined -31 mean? Why would you add that up? If a line was +3 on the night, and each of teh three players were on the ice and were each +3, you'd say they're +9. What relevance does +9 mean? It's like saying X and X combined for 200 points last year when as a pair it was only 75 goals.

That trio was likely closer to -10, which is the excess amount of goals scored at even strength while that trio was together on the ice. That would be the only relevant number to me. And yes, it's not a great number, but at the same time Renny too often put them out there against guys who can score, and even if they held them here and there, they can't 100% stop the Crosbys of the world from scoring and their chances of scoring a goal against would be minimal. If Renney used them solely as a third line, getting 4-5 minutes of ES time, their +/- would be less relevant to the conversation and would be more in-line with many fourth line players.
It was really more to get the point across that last year's 4th liners were on the ice for more goals than some people would like to think. We continually see fans around here wax nostalgic about Sjostrom, Betts, and Orr as if they were this amazing shutdown line when they had their fair share of struggles at even strength.

And yes, I do agree that Renney misused them and they shouldn't have been out there as much against other team's top lines at even strength. Sjostrom and Betts are good penalty killers but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be matched up against the best players in the league. There's a big difference between a penalty killing forward such as Betts and a legitimate shutdown center like Madden or Pahlsson, and I think some Rangers fans fail to grasp that.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
  #46
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This I totally agree with.

You want to be a chef? Great. Do the dishes for a few months, get your hands dirty and do the grunt work, and do it for minimum wage. Be the first one to come in in the morning and the last to leave at night. Show me you really want it. Once you do that, we'll let you prep for the cooks once a week. If you can do that without cutting your finger off, eventually we'll put you on the line.

You want to be an NHL player? You think you have top 9 talent? Play 5 minutes a night with the highest intensity imaginable. Hit as hard as you can, bury the puck deep in their zone for 45 seconds at a time. Be the other teams worst nightmare every time you're on the ice, not on the score sheet, but as a physical tormentor. You do that, and you'll get your shot on the third line, with more minutes and more responsibility.

I want guys in Hartford to know that once they get their cup of tea/jager/coffee on the 4th line of the Rangers, they know this is their chance to break it in the NHL. They know exactly what is expected of them: hit, punch, torment. If they do that, there's a career for them in the NHL.

Sounds like our boy Callahan and the way he has approached is initiation into The Show.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:22 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post


In any case, not signing Betts was ridiculous. He makes pretty much every 4th line in the league better and improves most every PK.

My beef was only with the 'young players' part. In general most successful teams have a lot of experience on their 4th line, and even more so in the playoffs.
While I think a 3rd round pick was overpayment for Boyle, you can't argue that Boyle's been visibly worse than Betts. He's also been a good PKer, and he has a lot more upside than Betts. There's a reason guys like Blair Betts, Stephane Yelle, etc. bounce all over the league...it's because they're a dime a dozen. I'm not sure if other fan bases are like this, but it seems we fall in love with these guys and spend so much time debating about them for no reason at all.

Maybe other teams don't debate about the Blair Betts' of the world because they have a lot more top 6 talent than us, idk.

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Old
03-09-2010, 02:57 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Sjostrom, Betts, and Orr were a combined -31
Combined -31? Combined? LOL... that one takes the cake.

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Old
03-09-2010, 03:17 PM
  #49
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I agree, cap, as I mentioned. They were, however, better than average fourth liners. They were serviceable PKers and Betts was decent on the faceoffs, but I think we noticed a drop-off early last season when he was going against more tougher competition. I think at one point he was around 46% during the season at 49.3%, lower than prior years averages of 50.3%, 52.3% and 53.4%. Steady decline as Renney used him against tougher competition. But in any event, having Betts on a fourth line was a positive for this team and Sjo was more than serviceable on a fourth line, albeit a bit expensive. Betts, however, is making $550k this season and was pretty cheap as a Ranger (Boyle's a bit less, so there's no real loss/gain there).

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03-09-2010, 04:39 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
The Rangers 4th line this year is stupid. 4th liners are supposed to be young kids who don't have top end talent that will hit anything, keep pressure in the O zone, and don't make any money. That's what made Betts/Orts/Moore/Ward/etc at any given point so good.

So you have Voros and Brashear who combined could have brought Alex Tangauy or Seidenberg here, then you have Shelley who is OK but wasn't worth the pick. Boyle is OK but has limited upside.

Torts promised more scoring from the 4th line but it's on pace to be much worse than last year and probably the worst offensive 4th line since the lockout.

You mean to tell me some combo of Dane Byers/Dale Weisse/Pa Paranteau/Brodie DuPont and the now traded Jordan Owens or even Tom Pyatt can't play 5 minutes a night at the NHL level? Gimme a break!
Okay, first of all, you said that the 4th line is supposed to be kids who don't have top end talent. Both Prust and Boyle are younger than Orr/Betts/Sjostrom and you say a few lines down that Boyle has limited upside. How is having limited upside different from not having top end talent? Also, they are most definitely hitting and keeping pressure in the zone, more so than any other line on this team.

Secondly, Voros and Brash were going to bring in anybody? Am I missing something here? I don't see how or why anyone would give us anything for either of those guys, let alone a top 6 offensive player or a top 4 D man.

At the end of the day, this line isn't making or breaking the team, but I think that they are a definite upgrade over last years fourth. Everyone seems to be making much, much more of Betts than is warranted. As someone stated a few posts back, every team but the Flyers passed on the guy and even they made him tryout. The "we should know our players best" argument doesn't hold much water with me, I agree that we should, but letting Betts go didn't ruin this team by any means, we're much in the same place as we were last year and our penalty kill is still one of the best in the league. We knew him - we knew he wasn't irreplaceable or really worth holding on to and we were right.

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