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Old
03-08-2010, 09:52 PM
  #101
Zil
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
I'll say again:

So did Drury, Redden, Rozsival, (and Higgins and Kotalik on their teams). You're blaming Sean Avery, a guy who isn't really supposed to be relied on for much offense, for his production being down? It's a luxury that when the TEAM is producing, Avery will contribute some points on top of doing his job as a pest and grinder. When the entire team is down in offensive production, significantly, what do you expect? It's not like we see an Avery - Prospal - Gaborik line out there where we should be wondering why Avery can't put up 50 points.

By the way, Avery has 25 points with 16 games remaining. He could easily finish with 30+ which isn't even worth complaining about for a grinder on this team... what do you want from him? He's 6th on the team behind Gabby, Prospal, Dubinsky, Cally and DZ. Ahead of 7M Drury and everyone else.

I mean nobody has lived up to expectations this year, really (you know who the exceptions are), but Avery on pace for 30 points is right around where I'd expect him to be if the team was putting up more points, maybe 5-8 points more from him? When we're getting on Avery's lack of production, and he's 6th on the team with 25 points and nearly 20% of the season remaining... I think we've run out of things to complain about.

Look at the team as a whole before you complain about individual players. How can anyone be producing "as expected" on a team that's struggle to find offense as much as we have this year?
No, I'm pretty sure I said that I'm not blaming him as a central cause, but his game has fallen off. I don't see what so offensive about noting the obvious here. I like Sean. This season he's not doing it.

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Old
03-08-2010, 11:12 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
No, I'm pretty sure I said that I'm not blaming him as a central cause, but his game has fallen off. I don't see what so offensive about noting the obvious here. I like Sean. This season he's not doing it.

The point I was trying to make is that very few are and it shouldn't be a surprise that Avery's going to see a dip in production when the ENTIRE team does. He had 12 points in 18 games for us last season which is a 54 point pace. This year EVERYONE's production is down.

Gaborik is exactly what we expected from Gaborik if healthy and Prospal has meshed with him nicely. Dubinsky is on pace for a career year and is third on the team in points despite missing a nice chunk of games, although everyone thinks he is awful recently and wants to move him. Other than that Callahan is on pace for exactly the same as last year, Del Zotto has put up pleasantly respectable offensive numbers, but has trailed off significantly since the beginning of the season and has a putrid +/- and everyone else on the team, save Henrik, is having an absolutely AWFUL season, statistically speaking.

Whether you're blaming him or not, you shouldn't be surprised that Sean Avery, a third line grinder, is "not doing it" this year when you look at the rest of your team.

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03-09-2010, 12:02 AM
  #103
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Avery is playing with third and fourth liners. How is he going to score? He doesn't have the talent to create offense for himself. He needs help. A good team would slot Avery as the 3rd line wing with a center like...Eric Belanger, for example, who is defensively excellent, and can create a little bit in the offensive zone.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:11 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Avery is playing with third and fourth liners. How is he going to score? He doesn't have the talent to create offense for himself. He needs help. A good team would slot Avery as the 3rd line wing with a center like...Eric Belanger, for example, who is defensively excellent, and can create a little bit in the offensive zone.
Dubi?

Didn't Avery play with Dubi and Jags for a while back in 06-07? They had a good bit of success too, right?

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03-09-2010, 12:26 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
Dubi?

Didn't Avery play with Dubi and Jags for a while back in 06-07? They had a good bit of success too, right?
Yes, but how can he play with Dubi when Dubi is playing out of role as one of our key offensive components. He might become that someday, but he shouldn't be that yet.

Besides, that trio worked well for Avery and Dubi because they were playing with Jagr, but Jagr should have been playing with a real offensive player, not a third line pest and a third line rookie.

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03-09-2010, 12:30 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yes, but how can he play with Dubi when Dubi is playing out of role as one of our key offensive components. He might become that someday, but he shouldn't be that yet.

Besides, that trio worked well for Avery and Dubi because they were playing with Jagr, but Jagr should have been playing with a real offensive player, not a third line pest and a third line rookie.
Oh I agree with you...I was just saying how if we were a better team right now with some more depth then Dubi would be a good center for Avery...

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03-09-2010, 12:40 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
The point I was trying to make is that very few are and it shouldn't be a surprise that Avery's going to see a dip in production when the ENTIRE team does. He had 12 points in 18 games for us last season which is a 54 point pace. This year EVERYONE's production is down.

Gaborik is exactly what we expected from Gaborik if healthy and Prospal has meshed with him nicely. Dubinsky is on pace for a career year and is third on the team in points despite missing a nice chunk of games, although everyone thinks he is awful recently and wants to move him. Other than that Callahan is on pace for exactly the same as last year, Del Zotto has put up pleasantly respectable offensive numbers, but has trailed off significantly since the beginning of the season and has a putrid +/- and everyone else on the team, save Henrik, is having an absolutely AWFUL season, statistically speaking.

Whether you're blaming him or not, you shouldn't be surprised that Sean Avery, a third line grinder, is "not doing it" this year when you look at the rest of your team.
How is noting a fact the same as being surprised? He has fallen off and there are causes for that, some of which are out of his control, but it has still happened. Regardless of what my personal expectations are for him (i.e. a pest with a little complementary scoring punch), he's not doing as well. That doesn't mean I think he should be carrying the team or even be as good as a Callahan or a Dubinsky. It just means I think he's capable of or at least was capable of being a little more effective.

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03-09-2010, 01:26 AM
  #108
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I now see no positive outcome to this season at all.

At least before when we were looking at 12-13th place I could feel hopeful about the upcoming draft.

But they're going to finish 9th or 10th and everyone knows it.
Knowing the Rangers, probably 9th, 1 point out of it.
No youth/picks gained at the deadline, no playoffs, and no shot at a top draft pick. They won't even pick in the top 10 this year.

Disgusting in every aspect.
Post of the year.

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Old
03-09-2010, 01:44 AM
  #109
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what

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Originally Posted by Claxton View Post
Post of the year.
If youre a true ranger fan show some pride.
Its pathetic how many people can just bash this team.
THERE ARE 19 GAMES LEFT and they are 3 Wins out of the 6th seed and playing the flyers twice that im aware of.
Everyone called for dubi and girardi to get dumped at the deadline for picks yet hes been playing great all year despite missing games.

Im not saying this year is the cup, im just saying that you dont scrap a season for picks with 20 games left and a win out of a playoff spot with a two solid performances before the olympic break against pitt in ot and 5-2 against tbl

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Old
03-09-2010, 01:51 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscharf View Post
If youre a true ranger fan show some pride.
Its pathetic how many people can just bash this team.
THERE ARE 19 GAMES LEFT and they are 3 Wins out of the 6th seed and playing the flyers twice that im aware of.
Everyone called for dubi and girardi to get dumped at the deadline for picks yet hes been playing great all year despite missing games.

Im not saying this year is the cup, im just saying that you dont scrap a season for picks with 20 games left and a win out of a playoff spot with a two solid performances before the olympic break against pitt in ot and 5-2 against tbl
I've been a Rangers fan my whole life...and long enough to know what this team is. It's no better than last years or the year before that. I know that this team will get smoked by the Caps or Pens and honestly just making the playoffs is no longer enough for me. Yet at best, we're looking for another 1st round exit. I would have gladly signed up for 1 season of pure agony to finish bottom 3 to get a guy we can build around for the next decade, instead of a middle of the round guy who might be a nice player but maybe not. This cycle of mediocrity has gone on for so long now I guess many of us are just used to it. But this whole idea of once you make it anything can happen is just a bunch of malarchy. 8 seeds don't win it all.

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Old
03-09-2010, 03:11 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick00 View Post
I now see no positive outcome to this season at all.

At least before when we were looking at 12-13th place I could feel hopeful about the upcoming draft.

But they're going to finish 9th or 10th and everyone knows it.
Knowing the Rangers, probably 9th, 1 point out of it.
No youth/picks gained at the deadline, no playoffs, and no shot at a top draft pick. They won't even pick in the top 10 this year.

Disgusting in every aspect.
Welcome to my personal Ranger Hell. 43 years, with a few exceptions, of mediocrity. Not good enough to win it all, not bad enough to get lucky. The bar is set at Mezzo. It's hard as hell to root for this (dis)organization some times. If I didn't have so many years of emotion invested in this team I would just root for another and be a happy hockey fan. Now, I'm just a disinterested bystander.

The short-sided (mis)management is enough to make you scream. And now we have The mercenary in line to take over as GM when the Bafoon from Banf-f-f is wheeled off, stage left, like Strom Thurmond to a life of peaceful scinility.

Nice post Nick00.

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Old
03-09-2010, 03:30 AM
  #112
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I think there should be a new chant at the garden: "Time to Tank!"

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Old
03-09-2010, 05:38 AM
  #113
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As long as the garden sells out every game (cablevision buys up lots of seats and gives them away to make it appear as so) I wouldn't expect drastic changes in the product you see on ice. I feel bad for Lundqvist, most (any?) other team with such a solid goaltender would have already built up a world class franchise around him in these 5 years and made legitimate cup runs by now. Sadly his prime is being wasted playing for such mediocrity. But the trade off is 7+ million per year and the life of a king in NYC.

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03-09-2010, 05:40 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ChipAyten View Post
As long as the garden sells out every game (cablevision buys up lots of seats and gives them away to make it appear as so) I wouldn't expect drastic changes in the product you see on ice. I feel bad for Lundqvist, most (any?) other team with such a solid goaltender would have already built up a world class franchise around him in these 5 years and made legitimate cup runs by now. Sadly his prime is being wasted playing for such mediocrity. But the trade off is 7+ million per year and the life of a king in NYC.
till this year, luongo hasnt really made a run of it...it took Hasek a loooooong time to get his ring....it takes more than a great goalie to win a cup.

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Old
03-09-2010, 09:13 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
till this year, luongo hasnt really made a run of it...it took Hasek a loooooong time to get his ring....it takes more than a great goalie to win a cup.
True but when you have a great one just seemingly appear for you out of nowhere it seems like a waste. To Sather's credit he hasnt just sit there with a thumb up his butt and surrounded Lundqvist with Harftord fodder. Unfortunately for us his methods of building a team are all wrong.

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by bscharf View Post
If youre a true ranger fan show some pride.

I love these silly little slogans.

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Old
03-09-2010, 01:25 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Avery is playing with third and fourth liners. How is he going to score? He doesn't have the talent to create offense for himself. He needs help. A good team would slot Avery as the 3rd line wing with a center like...Eric Belanger, for example, who is defensively excellent, and can create a little bit in the offensive zone.
Avery also holds his own on a 2nd line with decent talent. Look at the year we lost to the Sabres, he played with Shanny and Drury most of the time if I'm not mistaken and had an excellent year.

Not sure why people think Avery's going to create his own points. As far as I'm concerned, while his game may have slightly decreased, he's still creating a decent amount of chances and forechecking with the same intensity. The quality of the chances just hasn't been there.

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03-09-2010, 01:32 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy View Post
Welcome to my personal Ranger Hell. 43 years, with a few exceptions, of mediocrity. Not good enough to win it all, not bad enough to get lucky. The bar is set at Mezzo. It's hard as hell to root for this (dis)organization some times. If I didn't have so many years of emotion invested in this team I would just root for another and be a happy hockey fan. Now, I'm just a disinterested bystander.

The short-sided (mis)management is enough to make you scream. And now we have The mercenary in line to take over as GM when the Bafoon from Banf-f-f is wheeled off, stage left, like Strom Thurmond to a life of peaceful scinility.

Nice post Nick00.
How many teams haven't been, with a few exceptions, "mediocore"? I'd be willing to give you Detroit, Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Montreal, and Colorado. And consider that Montreal and Edmonton haven't done anything since the '80s and early '90s save Edmonton's surprise post-lockout run to the finals against Carolina. And that Colorado had never been to the finals as the Nordiques.

I don't understand the fairytale land some hockey fans live in, where more than a few teams can be better than their unrealistic definition of "mediocore". Would you rather us be a team like Toronto that often times dwells in the basement but never seems to return to being truly competitive? They haven't been to the finals since the '60s.

I want success for this team as bad as the next guy, but the idea that you tank or just shoot to NOT get better from year to year and to get better in the long run (and I don't really understand how you can tell me Sather isn't trying to get better in the long run considering all we've traded away from our own system is MEDIOCORE players and kept anyone who even has a chance of being top 6 forward/top 4 d-pairing talent).

This fan base has no patience, it's bizarre. Sather's in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Dolan wants playoff tickets every year. He's somehow delivered that AND kept our top prospects, AND added to our system via trades. We have a solid foundation for the future, maybe it's missing a few parts, but seriously, show me a team that isn't missing a few parts, other than MAYBE a select few.

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Old
03-09-2010, 01:36 PM
  #119
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What's with the title? Can't anyone fix it?

I guess MSG really is an out house for other teams this season though, so maybe not

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03-09-2010, 01:50 PM
  #120
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Rangerfan 10 - this is an indirect response to your post, I agree with some of what you are saying and I know its all part of the bigger picture - i totally understand its warranted and necessary - but do we really have to compare the Rangers to other teams in terms of mediocrity and success? I'm sick of it.

This team is an original six franchise in the biggest market of the world. They've been around longer and have more of a rich history than the the Colorado Avalanche and Tampa Bay Lighting (who, by the way have won more Cups combined than the Rangers have since their inception into the league).

Can we stop measuring the Rangers to every other mediocre franchise? Why can't fans demand excellence and expect it instead of the opposite? I think one of the biggest problems around here is that some fans (not saying you) accept the fact that for quite a long time (and a VERY long time before that) this team has been mired in mediocrity and in effect are devaluing what the franchise should really be, or could be. We have been forced to get excited over barely making the playoffs for 3 straight years. Its like we have been brainwashed into accepting mediocre/lackluster play and pay top dollar to watch it.

I'm not happy about that. I'm not happy with the lack of success and I don't really care how the Rangers stack up against the other 29 teams. Just because a half dozen or so teams have been the role model in building successful and competitive teams year in year out doesnt make ok for me, that the Rangers are just one of the other teams and deal with it.

Is it too much to ask for a winning pedigree? Unfortunately this is a business and success is measured by $$$ and not wins and championships. That is a half-assed and sour franchise if thats the case. It all starts at the top with the ownership. That is the root of the problem. Fans shell out tons of money and spend hours of their time supporting this team, i think its totally justified to want more, a lot more - and if that means having an opinion about doing it a certain way (selling, tanking) then so be it. Something has to shake this team up.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 03-09-2010 at 01:57 PM.
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03-09-2010, 02:44 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Rangerfan 10 - this is an indirect response to your post, I agree with some of what you are saying and I know its all part of the bigger picture - i totally understand its warranted and necessary - but do we really have to compare the Rangers to other teams in terms of mediocrity and success? I'm sick of it.

This team is an original six franchise in the biggest market of the world. They've been around longer and have more of a rich history than the the Colorado Avalanche and Tampa Bay Lighting (who, by the way have won more Cups combined than the Rangers have since their inception into the league).

Can we stop measuring the Rangers to every other mediocre franchise? Why can't fans demand excellence and expect it instead of the opposite? I think one of the biggest problems around here is that some fans (not saying you) accept the fact that for quite a long time (and a VERY long time before that) this team has been mired in mediocrity and in effect are devaluing what the franchise should really be, or could be. We have been forced to get excited over barely making the playoffs for 3 straight years. Its like we have been brainwashed into accepting mediocre/lackluster play and pay top dollar to watch it.

I'm not happy about that. I'm not happy with the lack of success and I don't really care how the Rangers stack up against the other 29 teams. Just because a half dozen or so teams have been the role model in building successful and competitive teams year in year out doesnt make ok for me, that the Rangers are just one of the other teams and deal with it.

Is it too much to ask for a winning pedigree? Unfortunately this is a business and success is measured by $$$ and not wins and championships. That is a half-assed and sour franchise if thats the case. It all starts at the top with the ownership. That is the root of the problem. Fans shell out tons of money and spend hours of their time supporting this team, i think its totally justified to want more, a lot more - and if that means having an opinion about doing it a certain way (selling, tanking) then so be it. Something has to shake this team up.
I'm all in favor of demanding excellence, but I don't want them to mess themselves up for the future by trying to "win-now." To reach excellence we have to build from within and I hate to rain on all the negativity in here, but our farm system is looking pretty good right now. I will wait to see how the kids Gordie Clark has drafted turn out before pronouncing sentence on this team.
For so many years we were mediocre with no future. Now we are still mediocre, but the team looks like it has a future. Despite all the atrocious free agent signings Sather has made, Clark might very well have us on the cusp of a great young team to watch.
What I'm saying is that a shakeup now, just to shake the team up would be dumb. That's how you end with with a fiasco like Ratelle and Park for Esposito and Vadnais (and the echo trade of Middleton for Hodge).

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03-09-2010, 03:02 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Rangerfan 10 - this is an indirect response to your post, I agree with some of what you are saying and I know its all part of the bigger picture - i totally understand its warranted and necessary - but do we really have to compare the Rangers to other teams in terms of mediocrity and success? I'm sick of it.

This team is an original six franchise in the biggest market of the world. They've been around longer and have more of a rich history than the the Colorado Avalanche and Tampa Bay Lighting (who, by the way have won more Cups combined than the Rangers have since their inception into the league).

Can we stop measuring the Rangers to every other mediocre franchise? Why can't fans demand excellence and expect it instead of the opposite? I think one of the biggest problems around here is that some fans (not saying you) accept the fact that for quite a long time (and a VERY long time before that) this team has been mired in mediocrity and in effect are devaluing what the franchise should really be, or could be. We have been forced to get excited over barely making the playoffs for 3 straight years. Its like we have been brainwashed into accepting mediocre/lackluster play and pay top dollar to watch it.

I'm not happy about that. I'm not happy with the lack of success and I don't really care how the Rangers stack up against the other 29 teams. Just because a half dozen or so teams have been the role model in building successful and competitive teams year in year out doesnt make ok for me, that the Rangers are just one of the other teams and deal with it.

Is it too much to ask for a winning pedigree? Unfortunately this is a business and success is measured by $$$ and not wins and championships. That is a half-assed and sour franchise if thats the case. It all starts at the top with the ownership. That is the root of the problem. Fans shell out tons of money and spend hours of their time supporting this team, i think its totally justified to want more, a lot more - and if that means having an opinion about doing it a certain way (selling, tanking) then so be it. Something has to shake this team up.
We all obviously want a winning pedigree, but at some point you have to wonder if the expectations are crazy.

I know there's a lot of pride involved in being an original 6, but it's not as if Chicago, Toronto, or Boston have had a lot of success in quite some time. And IMO all of the original 6 teams other than Detroit has been average at best post-lockout.

If you're going to say the Rangers are mediocore, then you're obviously comparing them to the success of other teams. You can't say something's mediocore if everything else is pretty much the same quality.

Everyone WANTS us to be amongst the Detroit and Pittsburgh's of the league, but whining about how we're mediocore to the point where I don't even know why some people call themselves fans is ridiculious.

And for the record, it's one thing to want a team to sell, it's a completely different thing to want a team to lose on purpose or root for them to lose for a higher draft pick.

You let the chips fall where they may with the draft, because maybe the odds are better at the top, but in general the draft is a crapchute.

I will NEVER root for this team to lose, and IMO anyone that does is not a true fan. I might want them to sell the entire team, trade away everyone, play 18 rookies a game, whatever. But I'd still root for them to win, and want them to win. I hate watching the Rangers lose. It ruins my night. I can't understand how some are happy when they lose because they MAY have a shot at an impact player.

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03-09-2010, 04:38 PM
  #123
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I hate watching the Rangers lose. It ruins my night.
How true that is, I usually can't play NHL10 or watch the NHL network until their next game after a loss. It really drains my interest in hockey when the Rangers do poorly. I think part of the reason why I was so hyped for watching team USA in the olympics was because Drury and Cally were coming off 2 rather strong games.

I think the core for this team and its future is quite strong. Callahan, Staal, Lundqvist Del Zotto etc. The only problem is, we've all been talking about this team's future for several seasons now. I think many of us were expecting a Chicago or Los Angeles type performance: from toilet scrubber, gradually up to a contender. But that has not been the case. we've been a consistent flatline, bubble team since the lockout.

Adding to the frustration is the annual "where did they come from" team. Watching teams like Phoenix come out of nowhere to have a fighting chance in the playoffs sucks for many NYR fans. What business do the Coyotes have even earning a winning record? The franchise is essentially bankrupt and being run by the 29 other owners. The jealousy is warranted.

No preference is given to O-6 teams when it comes to game time. The theorists might even say they're at a disadvantage because the league wants to promote the newer markets. So to say that the Bruins, Leafs, Habs and Hawks not being successful in recent history is a justification for us to be content with the same for the Rangers is plain silly. 1997 was our last legitimate cup run. I say because we're an O-6 team, it's been far too long.

When you think of the 6 teams that played in 1926 you think of success. You never think of their recent hardships when examining their collective histories. The performances of Orr, Howe, Gainey, Gilbert etc, they resonate in the minds of hockey fans first and foremost. The Red Wings are the only O-6 team who've exemplified a consistent winning tradition in the past several decades. It always, always starts at the front office. Mike Ilitch, Ken Holland and Bowman/Babcock have done an exemplary job of it. The NYR organization should take notes.


Last edited by ChipAyten: 03-09-2010 at 04:47 PM.
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03-09-2010, 07:52 PM
  #124
n8
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What's with the title? Can't anyone fix it?

I guess MSG really is an out house for other teams this season though, so maybe not
was wondering about this myself...

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03-09-2010, 07:57 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
What's with the title? Can't anyone fix it?

I guess MSG really is an out house for other teams this season though, so maybe not
If we can't laugh at ourselves, what else is there?

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