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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Team Russia: Too many KHLers?

View Poll Results: Did Team Russia have too many KHL Lifers in their lineup to win gold?
Yes 65 55.08%
No 53 44.92%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-01-2010, 11:31 PM
  #51
Zine
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
Guys,

Once again, it wasn't the number of KHLers that they took, it was the TYPE OF KHLers.

Look at their forwards:

Morozov - slow scorer, with zero defensive ability.
Zaripov - small scorer, who isn't very comfortable playing on small ice.
Zinoviev - similar to Zaripov.
Fedorov - too old, too slow.
Kozlov - ain't much younger or faster then Fedorov.

These players were not a good compliment to the other Star forwards on this team.

This team already had scorers, what it needed was some "Universal players" that may not be stars but could help Stars by covering for them in the defensive zone and doing the dirty work along the boards and in front of the net.

Players such as Frolov, Kulemin, Saprykin, Tereschenko, among others come to mind.


On defense the situation is similar. What is the point of bringing a PP specialist like Grebeshkov, if you don't even use him on PP? Russia's defensive corps was WAY too offensive-minded. The defensive pairings were very unbalanced.

They only had one true stay-at-home D-man (Volchenkov). I'm not saying that Russia is rich with defensemen, but I think there are blueliners that are more responsible defensively then the players that they brought. Players such as Proshkin, Denisov, V. Vishnevskiy, Atyushov are smart positionally and might have played more physical.

I mean, I'm not saying all of these changes would've won the game againt Canada for us, but I definetely think there is a team that Russia could put together that could've presented a serious challenge to this Canada squad.

I'd still keep ZZM. They were extremely valuable in the prelims.......Bykov just didn't use then properly vs Canada.

Players that didn't belong = Fedorov, Kozlov, Afinogenov, Grebeshkov, Kalinin (although he had a solid tournament).

Replace with Frolov, Kulemin and Tereschenko. Despite attitude problems, in hindsight I would have chosen Zubov. Although slow now, D. Markov's grit would have been great on small ice.

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Old
03-05-2010, 08:43 AM
  #52
Jeff Babchuk
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Originally Posted by dimi19 View Post
u obviously don't know much about kovalev or hockey to say something like that, if u actually followed kovalev through out his career you'd know that he always shows up and plays his best during important games such as playoffs or big games during the season, he is very clutch, he is a true leader, he would have helped team russia a lot
Well, the earliest memory I have of a WC is 1984, and since then I've been hooked on international hockey.
I started following/watching the NHL during the season 1997-98, and I've followed it more or less intensively ever since.
So I know a few things about hockey.

Kovalev "always shows up"?
Yeah... and I'm the Pope.

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Old
03-05-2010, 08:49 AM
  #53
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I think it was their defence that lead to the downfall. You can't have all offensive-minded D-mans. You gotta have shutDown D-mans to slow the game and forecheck the other team hard. Russians were wayy too soft in their zone.

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03-05-2010, 09:31 AM
  #54
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I think it was their defence that lead to the downfall. You can't have all offensive-minded D-mans. You gotta have shutDown D-mans to slow the game and forecheck the other team hard. Russians were wayy too soft in their zone.
I didn't see a lot of defensive engagement by Russia's forwards in their own zone.

It's tough for two defencemen to out-muscle 3 forwards, particularly big forwards like Canada had brought.

I saw a lot of Russia's forwards hanging around the blueline waiting to be sprung.

While covering the points is important, forwards still need to recognize when the defence is getting overwhelmed and pitch in.

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Old
03-05-2010, 09:48 AM
  #55
joe89
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I didn't see a lot of defensive engagement by Russia's forwards in their own zone.

It's tough for two defencemen to out-muscle 3 forwards, particularly big forwards like Canada had brought.

I saw a lot of Russia's forwards hanging around the blueline waiting to be sprung.


While covering the points is important, forwards still need to recognize when the defence is getting overwhelmed and pitch in.
This caught me too, I think that was precisely what was wrong. You just can't do that against a powerhouse like Canada up front.

For the KHL players, they are skilled enough for the level but it's possible the small ice played to their disadvantage. But Russia didn't seem to find chemistry with the big guns either which really is their chance against a stacked team from top to bottom.

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Old
03-05-2010, 10:50 AM
  #56
Frank the Tank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I didn't see a lot of defensive engagement by Russia's forwards in their own zone.

It's tough for two defencemen to out-muscle 3 forwards, particularly big forwards like Canada had brought.

I saw a lot of Russia's forwards hanging around the blueline waiting to be sprung.

While covering the points is important, forwards still need to recognize when the defence is getting overwhelmed and pitch in.
The forwards (NHL or KHL) back-checking with full effort and having the awareness to pick up the extra forward coming into their defensive zone would have helped too. Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Semin, etc... only wanted to play offense and Canada made them pay before dearly for it.

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Old
03-05-2010, 10:57 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I didn't see a lot of defensive engagement by Russia's forwards in their own zone.

It's tough for two defencemen to out-muscle 3 forwards, particularly big forwards like Canada had brought.

I saw a lot of Russia's forwards hanging around the blueline waiting to be sprung.

While covering the points is important, forwards still need to recognize when the defence is getting overwhelmed and pitch in.
Russia was incredibly overrated. Canada and the USA were better than Russia. The US would have beaten Russia in teh Olympics or 3,5 or 7 game series.

Horrible team D + horrible tendiing + No depth beyond top 6 Forwards = NO HEART = Mediocre Olympic Team

The two best teams by far met for the Gold.

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Old
03-07-2010, 02:11 PM
  #58
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I can't believe Russia didn't have Alexi Kovalev on the team. That itself should get that idiot Bykov fired!

Kovalev is only the player Lemieux called the most talented he's played with!!

What sucks is Kovalev likely won't get another chance since I really doubt he'll be on the team at age 41!

Leaving off Frolov was another bonehead move! Both of them plus other changes could've really made a difference.

What other key Russians were left off?

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Old
03-07-2010, 03:16 PM
  #59
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I am going to try analyzing Canada-Russia game in the next month or so, I just started watching the key first period, trying to see what some players did and did not. There are some obvious conclusions that I can make already - several players on team Russia simply couldn't skate. It seemed like someone put lead load in their skates. To me, you almost need a medical specialist to look into what happened there. I personally think that three days of sitting and waiting played a big role in it. Perhaps something like adrenaline withdrawal may have affected the Russians. I know for myself, before the game my heart was racing simply because I knew how much weight that game carried, don't know how the players felt themselves, perhaps in fan vocabulary it is called choking. Nothing to take away from Canada, they played a phenomenal game, but the outcome should have been a little different than what actually happeened had some Russians played with their nerves in tact.

I really don't want to name names yet, but three guys who are so far on my list as the biggest chokers in this game are all from the NHL. Also, I wanted to see how the officiating was since Kasatonov mentioned that there were some non-calls that should have been gone to Russia and I saw two obvious penalties not called that should have sent Canadians to the box.

I will try to get my analiysis posted here in about three weeks.

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Old
03-07-2010, 06:37 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I am going to try analyzing Canada-Russia game in the next month or so, I just started watching the key first period, trying to see what some players did and did not. There are some obvious conclusions that I can make already - several players on team Russia simply couldn't skate. It seemed like someone put lead load in their skates. To me, you almost need a medical specialist to look into what happened there. I personally think that three days of sitting and waiting played a big role in it. Perhaps something like adrenaline withdrawal may have affected the Russians. I know for myself, before the game my heart was racing simply because I knew how much weight that game carried, don't know how the players felt themselves, perhaps in fan vocabulary it is called choking. Nothing to take away from Canada, they played a phenomenal game, but the outcome should have been a little different than what actually happeened had some Russians played with their nerves in tact.

I really don't want to name names yet, but three guys who are so far on my list as the biggest chokers in this game are all from the NHL. Also, I wanted to see how the officiating was since Kasatonov mentioned that there were some non-calls that should have been gone to Russia and I saw two obvious penalties not called that should have sent Canadians to the box.

I will try to get my analiysis posted here in about three weeks.
Give it a rest the officiating was not the reason the Russians lost and by you saying that makes you look like an ass.

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Old
03-08-2010, 07:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Also, I wanted to see how the officiating was since Kasatonov mentioned that there were some non-calls that should have been gone to Russia and I saw two obvious penalties not called that should have sent Canadians to the box.
Russia's first powerplay was a dive by Morozov that shouldn't have been called and Russia also got away with too many men on the ice at least once. This is just an example of some of the things Russia got away with.

If anything Russia *benefitted* from poor officiating in that game. It might not have been so close if the game had been called fair.

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Old
03-10-2010, 01:18 AM
  #62
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I'm not going to get into the whole KHL v. NHL thing, but I will tell you what I thought killed the Russian team v. Team Canada. First you have to take a look at the way that the Swiss, the Slovaks and both games against the US and see how these teams were mostly able to keep Canada to the perimeter. They all had D that were strong on their feet, but also had forwards coming in low to support, giving up potential point shots which were mostly blocked. Against Russia, especially in the first period Canada was allowed to walk in unimpeded, using their size and strength to push aside Russian defenders like they weren't even there. Even Norway during the first period, lead by all 5'7" of Tommy Jakobsen were able to for Canada to the outside and break up cross ice passes in the offensive zone.

I don't know enough about a lot of KHL players to make a judgement, but either way Russia needed to play tougher in their own end and clog up the slot, instead of allowing Canada to do what they wished. You can blame Nabokov a lot for the goals, but Canada was moving around the puck at will and there aren't many goalies that are going to look good when you allow talent like that the time and space to do what they want.

So whatever Russia does for 2014, they should follow a model more like the US. Two lines that can score but are solid defensively, and a couple of lines you can use to eat minutes and chip in goals here at there. And come up with a better breakout other than having all 3 forwards standing at the far blueline waiting for a pass. I don't think that the talent is there to be able to roll 4 lines of goal scorers like Canada can, but even Yzerman recognized the need for guys who have offensive talent, but are great defensively, like Brendan Morrow. Again, I don't know the depth of Russians playing in the KHL, but there has to be guys who can play that type of game.


e: Finally, putting too much emphasis on World Championship teams also hurt. Yeah it's great that Russia have been able to win them recently but trying to translate success there to success when everyone's top talent is available is a mistake. Yes there are lessons to be learned but you need to be able to look beyond the WC and understand that the Olympics are a different game whatsoever.


Last edited by a pony: 03-10-2010 at 01:25 AM.
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Old
03-10-2010, 03:31 PM
  #63
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This forum is awesome, half people actually know what they are talking about and half people are complete joke, but what do you expect from americans, canadians or whatever. You say how they should have taken some more NHL players, because you think they are good for team even though most of you have no idea what kind players even play in khl. You have not seen a single KHL game ( most ) And think that is is some kind of **** hole where isn't a single good player, kind of like ahl. I wonder if Russia would have won, would you think that KHL is better than nhl and say that reason Russia won was because of khl players? No chance in hell. But now suddenly when loose it is all khl players fault, why all this KHL blaming when Russia lose, why in the hell you wanna blame players you have never seen playing before in their clubs, only maybe on russian squad


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Old
03-10-2010, 03:53 PM
  #64
MaxV
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Originally Posted by nature6pk View Post
Finally, putting too much emphasis on World Championship teams also hurt. Yeah it's great that Russia have been able to win them recently but trying to translate success there to success when everyone's top talent is available is a mistake. Yes there are lessons to be learned but you need to be able to look beyond the WC and understand that the Olympics are a different game whatsoever.
Well, it's funny that you've mentioned that. I actually think Bykov didn't put enough emphasis on the World Championships.

He actually constructed the Olympic team differently then he did the WC teams. And that maybe where the problem was.

The WC teams had a pretty good combination of scorers and defensively responsible players, both at forward and defenseman positions.

For the Olympic team he just put WAY too much emphasis on scoring and not enough on defense.

Almost all the forwards were brought because of their scoring ability. Only Fedorov and Kozlov were brought for other reasons (veteran leadership, small rink experience, etc.), but both of these players are past their prime.

And as far as blueliners, he just packed the roster full of PP specialists, with Volchenkov being the lone exception.

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