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Old
03-11-2010, 01:41 PM
  #101
Nyrvana
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And all the "Renney Defenders" are saying is this is a sentiment that was not afforded to Renney.
And thats fair. Renney probably did get mistreated by the fans. However, we know now for certain that it's not the coaches. It's the whole organization, we just don't have enough talent.

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03-11-2010, 01:46 PM
  #102
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Until Sather is fired and a competant GM is brought in that is in touch with this century, no coach is going to be successful. As constructed, the Rangers are a bad team with little balance. It's a miracle they're .500. with this cast, especially on defense.

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Old
03-11-2010, 03:03 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Nyrvana View Post
And thats fair. Renney probably did get mistreated by the fans. However, we know now for certain that it's not the coaches. It's the whole organization, we just don't have enough talent.
Saw an interview with Tom Renney between periods of the Oiler/Debbie game last week.

When asked about whether he missed New York he took a breathe and said how wonderful experience coaching the Rangers was and that his love of the city and its fans was so special. He almost looked like he was gonna get choked up for a second.

You can easily tell that he was beyond honored to coach the NY Rangers.

I was and am a big Renney fan, but I thought the firing came at the right time.

NEVER was a Torts guy, and was hoping for Laviolette. For pure entertainment though I don't miss a Torts post game presser..lol.

Most do agree that this team plain and simply just isn't talented enough to compete. And as constructed would get crushed in the first round anyway.


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Old
03-11-2010, 03:28 PM
  #104
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Why is it that just because Tortorella hasn't done a good job, that means that people were wrong on Renney too? Yes the talent is inept and yes Torts could have done better. That doesn't mean it wasn't Renney's time to go. Do you guys remember how frustrating it was to see players on the ice who didn't deserve to be on the ice? One thing about Torts is he holds people accountable. Renney had favortism towards the veterans. Also, I didn't like his defensive system. He was okay, but not great. Torts doesn't seem that great, but it's not like the Renney defenders are being proven to be completely right cause we are struggling now. That's like saying Willie Randolph was a good manager and didn't deserve to be fired because the Mets didn't do well under Jerry Manuel either. The logic is faulty there. Hey, maybe both guys aren't that good, and the team sucks too.

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03-11-2010, 04:25 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Salz View Post
Why is it that just because Tortorella hasn't done a good job, that means that people were wrong on Renney too? Yes the talent is inept and yes Torts could have done better. That doesn't mean it wasn't Renney's time to go.
whether or not it was Renney's time to go isn't my issue, and I think I can speak for the majority of "Renney Apologists" and say that's not their issue either.

the issue is for months there was a large, misguided crowd that felt that there was no talent issue on the team, and the immensely talented players were being held back by the stifling coach, Tom Renney. they ignored all logic and continued to insist that Sather could flip the switch, bring in an offensive coach, and this would be an offensive team. oops.

and then when Tortorella was finally brought in they were unbearable. after two games, they declared they've seen the results of Torts hockey and it was good. Lundqvist would be happier. Redden has turned his career around. Zherdev finally found a coach he can thrive under.

remind me how that all turned out.

THAT is my issue.

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Also, I didn't like his defensive system.
cool.

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Old
03-11-2010, 04:27 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by lovetherangers View Post
Seriously. I'm waiting for Brooks to accuse Torts of making a duplicate copy of the key to the ward room icebox, and begin obsessing over strawberries!
I lile the Caprain Queeg analogy.

Unfortunately, it applies to Tortorella and not Brooks.

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03-11-2010, 04:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
but the team he has leaves a lot to be desired.
hahaha, where have I heard that before....?

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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
When Christensen is your best center, youve got some problems.
well I'd argue that Christensen is the best center. hell, I'd suggest that Jokinen is better than any winger Renney had last season. and look at the centers from the 2005-06 season: Nylander, Rucchin, Betts, Moore. they would be screaming for Christensen. how did that team score 257 goals. must've had an offensive wizard of a coach.

but I forgot, that doesn't count because Jagr played excellent and therefore Renney was irrelevant. just like Renney deserved no credit whenever the team won with a strong performance from Lundqvist.

please, tell me Inferno, where would this team be in the standings if it weren't for Gaborik and Lundqvist this season? give me a number, 1-30.

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Old
03-11-2010, 04:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
Until Sather is fired and a competant GM is brought in that is in touch with this century, no coach is going to be successful. As constructed, the Rangers are a bad team with little balance. It's a miracle they're .500. with this cast, especially on defense.
Except they're not .500. 29-29-9 means they've actually won 29 games and lost 38. Not even close to .500.

But I agree with everything else you said.

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03-11-2010, 04:46 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That's what I love about the Sather defenders. The only reason the team has been somewhat competitive is Lundqvist. Sather should be worshiping at Henke's feet.
And the most interesting thing is that THE BEST PLAYER ON THIS TEAM is not a Sather drafted player.


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Old
03-11-2010, 04:48 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
hahaha, where have I heard that before....?


well I'd argue that Christensen is the best center. hell, I'd suggest that Jokinen is better than any winger Renney had last season. and look at the centers from the 2005-06 season: Nylander, Rucchin, Betts, Moore. they would be screaming for Christensen. how did that team score 257 goals. must've had an offensive wizard of a coach.

but I forgot, that doesn't count because Jagr played excellent and therefore Renney was irrelevant. just like Renney deserved no credit whenever the team won with a strong performance from Lundqvist.

please, tell me Inferno, where would this team be in the standings if it weren't for Gaborik and Lundqvist this season? give me a number, 1-30.
30 without either one.

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Old
03-11-2010, 04:52 PM
  #111
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It's not Torts fault that he inherited a **** roster. I don't know if he's the right guy but he's not the reason we're bad. It starts and ends with the wasted money going to Drury, Redden, and (to a lesser extent) Roszival. If we had a 7 million dollar worthy forward in Drury's spot and a 6 million dollar D-Man in Reddens, we'd be a real contender. Torts can't change that fact. I'm not saying that he's been right with every move he's made but I don't think any coach could make the current roster seem like a true contender. We have to make sure that we have the right players before we can judge whether or not we have the right coach.

As far as Renney, defensive systems are perfect for taking below average teams and slipping them into the playoffs. Points from OT losses add up. However, I doubt Renney would have ever taken us to a final. Don't really care that he's somewhere else right now.

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Old
03-11-2010, 04:53 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Gift of Gaborik View Post
It's not Torts fault that he inherited a **** roster. I don't know if he's the right guy but he's not the reason we're bad. It starts and ends with the wasted money going to Drury, Redden, and (to a lesser extent) Roszival. If we had a 7 million dollar worthy forward in Drury's spot and a 6 million dollar D-Man in Reddens, we'd be a real contender. Torts can't change that fact. I'm not saying that he's been right with every move he's made but I don't think any coach could make the current roster seem like a true contender. We have to make sure that we have the right players before we can judge whether or not we have the right coach.

As far as Renney, defensive systems are perfect for taking below average teams and slipping them into the playoffs. Points from OT losses add up. However, I doubt Renney would have ever taken us to a final. Don't really care that he's somewhere else right now.
Extremely well said.

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Old
03-11-2010, 04:56 PM
  #113
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Jokinen has been here for like 2 weeks, let's be serious.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr was one of the best lines the Rangers have had in a LONG time. There is no such line on this roster.

Prospal-Jokinen-Gaborik if you want to stretch wouldn't even be remotely comparable.

It is the players that make the team not the coach. If Tortorella had the 2005-2006 team I'd expect similiar results to Renney. It's a real stretch to say one coach is better than the other given their differing rosters.

And for that matter, who gives a ****, Renney isn't here any longer. Time to dry away the tears and live in the now. Oh if only Mike Keenan were here we'd surely win a cup. That guy had a good season once!

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Old
03-11-2010, 05:19 PM
  #114
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Renney is the 4th winningest coach in NYR land all time. Its amazing how so many seem to undersell what he did with so little. Yes, Jagr and Henrik. But over 4 years Renney was smart enough to play to his strengths, even when he was handed last years crap roster that was full of green players, and an offense that relied on used up Naslund and Nik Zherdev.

Still Renney had them in position to win cause he played to the teams strength, and that was with Henrik having a bad month don't forget. Players quit on him, cause they were so talented that they couldnt be stiffled any longer

Torts has been a sideshow compared to Renney's tenure. We all can agree he hasn't been given the best on ice product, but its not sooooo much diffrent than what Renney was given. We started out 7-1 and Gaborik was on fire for a long time. I was promised a better PP, didnt get it. I was promised more rest for Hank, more accountability, more physical team that stands up for each other.

Also, i'm not sure, but did Renney have a losing record at home while he was here?

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Old
03-11-2010, 05:28 PM
  #115
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I feel we make the playoffs with Renney as out coach. A working PP was what Renney's system was missing from being successful.

HOWEVER, I am glad he is gone for a number of reasons...

a)The team gave up on him during that period. Changing coaches gave us a chance at the cup.
In before "We never had a chance at the cup"
-We did. Any time you bring a contender to a game 7 you had a chance at making a run at the cup. If those playoffs happened 100 times we would win the cup 2 maybe 3 times. Those are chances and they add up..
b)Torts system is a lot more fun to watch. Seriously. I love the 3 man in for-check we see from time to time...
c)Torts has proven he can win at all levels. What has Renney proven??
d)Responsibility. I love how he benches players. He doesn't do it nearly as much as he should some games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Renney is the 4th winningest coach in NYR land all time. Its amazing how so many seem to undersell what he did with so little. Yes, Jagr and Henrik. But over 4 years Renney was smart enough to play to his strengths, even when he was handed last years crap roster that was full of green players, and an offense that relied on used up Naslund and Nik Zherdev.

Still Renney had them in position to win cause he played to the teams strength, and that was with Henrik having a bad month don't forget. Players quit on him, cause they were so talented that they couldnt be stiffled any longer

Torts has been a sideshow compared to Renney's tenure. We all can agree he hasn't been given the best on ice product, but its not sooooo much diffrent than what Renney was given. We started out 7-1 and Gaborik was on fire for a long time. I was promised a better PP, didnt get it. I was promised more rest for Hank, more accountability, more physical team that stands up for each other.

Also, i'm not sure, but did Renney have a losing record at home while he was here?
After that team gave up on Renney so did the fans. Like I said above i'm glad he is gone but I really think we are higher in the standings with him at the reins. I would have LOVED to have him as an assistant. What you said is right though and I whole heartetly (I have no idea how to spell that word... never really use it) agree with about everything you said.

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Old
03-11-2010, 05:41 PM
  #116
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This team looks about as gassed as last year's team that Tortorella complained about when he inherited it from Renney. Notwithstanding the crappy personnel and horrible management decisions of the GM--Tortorella promised to change that and to be honest the compete level of this team has not improved from last year to this year. If anything it's worse.

To comment on our defensemen--one reason Sather hired Tortorella was because of his belief in the transition game--one in which the idea is for all the d-men to be two way players. What we have is a 19 year old running the pwp and really not all that much offense out of the entire group. What's more there are no real physical types and even Staal is asked to not stay at home to pressure the offense more. This uptempo game clearly hasn't been working for a while because other teams have figured it out and Tortorella doesn't seem to have a plan B. It's all or nothing. The Rangers talent level isn't nearly strong enough where they can dictate the tempo or flow night in--night out. Looking at the Devils defensemen--and they're a team at least moderately more successful than ours--their defense is much more diverse. Guys for offense, guys for defense and physical play. We could use a Colin White--looking at Pittsburgh--we could use a Brooks Orpik--but not according to our strategists who are determined to see it only their way.

IMO both Sather and Tortorella need to go. Tortorella might work with some other team but with ours--no. Sather just sucks. I don't think there's any other team that would give him a job.

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Old
03-11-2010, 08:20 PM
  #117
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I lile the Caprain Queeg analogy.

Unfortunately, it applies to Tortorella and not Brooks.
Thanks, was wondering if someone would get it. Actually your right about Torts as well, but I think the Queeg analogy can apply to both these guys.

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Old
03-11-2010, 08:25 PM
  #118
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Yeah, I don't get the "what coach could get more out of this group?" At least the team under Renney worked hard for 95% of his tenure. The two most important things a coach can imprint on his team are work ethic and structure. This team has neither.

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03-11-2010, 08:41 PM
  #119
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I respect Tom Renney. Torts, not so much.

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03-11-2010, 08:43 PM
  #120
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A Ranger Hell

They need a fresh face that the players won't tune out. Renney did the best he could until the personnel changed. He reneged on a promise to play up-tempo like 10 games into last season. From that point, the team got progressively worse forcing Sather to act. He made the move most wanted bringing in the more animated Tortorella, who was going to "shake things up." Somehow, with a no talent roster, he squeezed enough to get them in. It's amazing they led the Caps 3-1 even if it was due to Henrik. Sadly, the series turned because the coach showed immaturity, getting himself banned from Game 6. The only realistic shot they had went up in flames.

Perhaps that end result cast some doubt. Even if only a select few returned. Jagr was already gone along with Tyutin when Slats gambled on Zherdev. The subtraction of Fedor and addition of Redden along with too high a price tag on Rozsival is a day that will live in infamy. That's where it turned.

It was Tort who didn't want Zherdev. He also pushed out Betts, Orr and Sjostrom, who even if nothing special were a hard working fourth line that were popular in the room. Subtracting our top PK duo and enforcer was a complete oversight. Furthermore, he added the hated Brashear, who proved to have little left. Tort probably had input on moving Korpikoski for Lisin. Korp can double at center and could've replaced Betts. Instead, they coughed up a 3rd Rd pick for Boyle. Two foreign words in the Sather Error. Asset management. Whether it's the wasted rentals last year or how they refuse to trust kids in the system (Baranka, Potter, Heikkinen, Sauer-Tort last yr), it's the same old stuff from a mismanaged organization that doesn't have a plan.

Out of foolish pride, Sather won't admit the Redden mistake. The arrogance of a man who once said, he was "the No.1 target and best first passer in the NHL." It never fails. There should be zero Slats apologists. Even with the four postseasons to which he lucked into No.68 and Lundqvist, the team only advanced past Round One twice. The bigger issue is Jazzy Jim, who would rather sit in mediocrity so he can keep raising prices. The best thing that can happen is the team falls completely apart. They're only five points ahead of the Canes. It's still possible to finish 13th and get a higher pick, which should be priority over squeaking in. But not under the current management.

I did a column on the whole Fire Sather rally and all that's wrong with the Garden and what us as fans must do to send a message. It's not pretty. When I don't return next Fall, that will be why. It's time to send a real message that hits home. Empty seats.

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Old
03-11-2010, 09:02 PM
  #121
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Enough pointing fingers. The truth is Torts is just as bad and inconsistent as this group of players is. They're a perfect match for eachother. That said, I expected a lot more from the players. A coach (any coach) can only do so much. It's up to the players to come together with eachother and make it about themselves as a team. The coach should be the one who puts that last 10% together to help the team make sense of their identity. With this group, there's NOTHING to even build on.

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03-11-2010, 11:26 PM
  #122
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I would disagree with that. They have a few top 6 players, good role players and a top goalie. Their defense is actually better "on paper" than a lot of other teams, including the Devils who play fantastic defensively even with Martin having been out.
It would be near-impossible for me to disagree more strongly with your assessment.

Lundqvist is a top goalie.

Gaborik is a legit 1st-line forward.

Staal is a legit top pairing defensive dman.

That's it for high-end quality. Every team in the league probably has as many high-end players.

If the Rangers had as you claim they would not be a team floundering like they do, like they have been for as long as some of the people post here have been able to watch a hockey game. It's absolutely pathetic what is going on here.

As for the Devils D, you're underrating them and overrating the Rangers D, something not uncommon here.

By the way, this reminds me of another thing that has been bothering me about this abundantly gifted franchise.

Before the year, there were more than a couple of posters suggesting that Grachev should be on the 1st line here immediately and telling me that he is already ready to be great. Now, while other players his age are tearing up in the bigs, Grachev's name has been deleted and replaced by the "next wave".

Grachev might make it one day but so far I'm not very optimistic.

And the band played on.

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Old
03-11-2010, 11:31 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift of Gaborik View Post
It's not Torts fault that he inherited a **** roster. I don't know if he's the right guy but he's not the reason we're bad. It starts and ends with the wasted money going to Drury, Redden, and (to a lesser extent) Roszival. If we had a 7 million dollar worthy forward in Drury's spot and a 6 million dollar D-Man in Reddens, we'd be a real contender. Torts can't change that fact. I'm not saying that he's been right with every move he's made but I don't think any coach could make the current roster seem like a true contender. We have to make sure that we have the right players before we can judge whether or not we have the right coach.

As far as Renney, defensive systems are perfect for taking below average teams and slipping them into the playoffs. Points from OT losses add up. However, I doubt Renney would have ever taken us to a final. Don't really care that he's somewhere else right now.
I am calling BS on this one. The guy picked his team out of camp.
He took Brashear to NY.. He picked Voros over Byers and Owens who had better camps. He went with 6 dmen for more then 2/3 of the season with 2 rookies and no AHL experience . He went with Valley and choose to play hank into the ground. He has a ton to do with the team sucking

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03-11-2010, 11:33 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
I am calling BS on this one. The guy picked his team out of camp.
He took Brashear to NY.. He picked Voros over Byers and Owens who had better camps. He went with 6 dmen for more then 2/3 of the season with 2 rookies and no AHL experience . He went with Valley and choose to play hank into the ground. He has a ton to do with the team sucking
True. Not that I think Byers or Owens would have made a difference...but true.

Torts is just as much to blame for this ****** season as anyone. Constant line changes even when lines were working...and I bet he has crushed the spirit of more than one guy this season...

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Old
03-11-2010, 11:39 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
It would be near-impossible for me to disagree more strongly with your assessment.

Lundqvist is a top goalie.

Gaborik is a legit 1st-line forward.

Staal is a legit top pairing defensive dman.

That's it for high-end quality. Every team in the league probably has as many high-end players.

If the Rangers had as you claim they would not be a team floundering like they do, like they have been for as long as some of the people post here have been able to watch a hockey game. It's absolutely pathetic what is going on here.

As for the Devils D, you're underrating them and overrating the Rangers D, something not uncommon here.

By the way, this reminds me of another thing that has been bothering me about this abundantly gifted franchise.

Before the year, there were more than a couple of posters suggesting that Grachev should be on the 1st line here immediately and telling me that he is already ready to be great. Now, while other players his age are tearing up in the bigs, Grachev's name has been deleted and replaced by the "next wave".

Grachev might make it one day but so far I'm not very optimistic.

And the band played on.
Are you serious? He is 19 years old in only his second season in North America.

This time next year, when Kreider or Stepan aren't scoring 40 goals are you going to saying you don't feel good about them anymore either?

This same thing happens to EVERY good prospect we have. First it was Cherry...then it was Sangs...now its Grachev...next year it will be Stepan or McD...the year after that it will be Kreider or Werek...

When they are first drafted our top prospects have everyone here swinging off their nuts. Then when they don't turn into Sidney Crosby or Drew Doughty right away everyone turns on them and starts mentioning them in trades to get Kovalchuk...

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