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#66: Bruins @ Flyers - March 11, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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03-12-2010, 01:57 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think if it's Biron that is drafted by Detroit, as opposed to Osgood...you have a different opinion on the matter.
Possible. Osgood's been a starter for longer than Marty, and has put up some very good numbers and won championships.

It may be all Detroit's doing, it may not.

As a goaltender I appreciate that Osgood has shown he has what it takes to bear down and win big games to get the Cup. It's impossible to say he was simply a passenger on the 08 team that won; he made some very key stops in big games to preserve wins against a Pittsburgh teams that is incredibly opportunistic.

Biron hasn't shown the same longevity as Osgood. Granted, he had guys named Hasek and Miller to contend with, and was horribly scapegoated out of Philly, but Osgood has accomplished a lot and I think people are far too quick to write him off. For my money, he gets my vote over Biron, but it's pretty hard to really validate one over the other.

I'll grant that my original statement that he's far better than anyone in the last ten years was a bit hyperbolic, but I still do think he was better. Yes, even better than Cechmanek.

Roman was unorthodox and ugly as hell, but damn effective when he was on his game...but a player's conduct and ability to fit with a team is part of being a good professional hockey player, and he's not in the NHL for a reason.

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03-12-2010, 02:01 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Timmeh P!?!?

The team, as a group, was shooting pucks at his head in warm ups. I'm sure there are some guys that didn't mind Cechko personally, but it appeared the vast majority had had enough of him...and away he went...to be replaced by a complete mess in goal (that was the Hackett, Burke, and Esche year).

He then got kicked off a team in the SEL...

So, not only did he have problems here in Philly...he got kicked off a team in the middle of the season in Europe.

I'm sorry, there's more evidence backing up my belief system than some mystery dude that covers the NHL being cited as a source.
i am glad you have evidence backing you up as from what i rememebr what was said and in print was that a select few didnt like him, i do not recall ever reading most people didnt want him on the team but i could care less. first off not some mystery dude, he covers another nhl team and i went to college with him. i could post plenty what he passes on but no need too. I could careless what happened when he left, he was run out of town by backstabbing teammates who should have been thankful to have a quality goalie.

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03-12-2010, 02:02 PM
  #553
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To be a starting goalie in the NHL, you should have to ability to win a game for your team when they are outplayed. Leighton will never do that. He only plays well when the team plays well

Did you watch the tampa game last week?

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03-12-2010, 02:03 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Possible. Osgood's been a starter for longer than Marty, and has put up some very good numbers and won championships.

It may be all Detroit's doing, it may not.

As a goaltender I appreciate that Osgood has shown he has what it takes to bear down and win big games to get the Cup. It's impossible to say he was simply a passenger on the 08 team that won; he made some very key stops in big games to preserve wins against a Pittsburgh teams that is incredibly opportunistic.

Biron hasn't shown the same longevity as Osgood. Granted, he had guys named Hasek and Miller to contend with, and was horribly scapegoated out of Philly, but Osgood has accomplished a lot and I think people are far too quick to write him off. For my money, he gets my vote over Biron, but it's pretty hard to really validate one over the other.

I'll grant that my original statement that he's far better than anyone in the last ten years was a bit hyperbolic, but I still do think he was better. Yes, even better than Cechmanek.

Roman was unorthodox and ugly as hell, but damn effective when he was on his game...but a player's conduct and ability to fit with a team is part of being a good professional hockey player, and he's not in the NHL for a reason.
Osgood has put together some nice runs in the playoffs, and has proven capable of handling the situation in Detroit...where you didn't get to see a lot of the puck. He isn't a bad goalie, but he's never been anything "special" as far as a goalie, and his talent level is easily comparable to the vast majority of goalies in the league throughout his tenure.

It's certainly fair to pick him over anyone we've had, but I don't think it's clear cut and I think Osgood's career owes a great deal to his good fortune of being drafted by a juggernaut.

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03-12-2010, 02:06 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
i am glad you have evidence backing you up as from what i rememebr what was said and in print was that a select few didnt like him, i do not recall ever reading most people didnt want him on the team but i could care less. first off not some mystery dude, he covers another nhl team and i went to college with him. i could post plenty what he passes on but no need too. I could careless what happened when he left, he was run out of town by backstabbing teammates who should have been thankful to have a quality goalie.
Maybe, but the situation was what it was...and Cechmanek's problems have followed him elsewhere. So, to paint it as he's some innocent lamb and it was just the Flyers organization that treated him poorly...doesn't hold up.

It was well established while Cechmanek was here that he was introverted, didn't really hang out with people, so on and so forth. And that's fine and all, but it also means that there's a pretty good chance he didn't have anyone really speaking up for him within that room.

You'll also note that I think he was excellent (though flawed) while he was here between the pipes, and that the problems with those teams were not of his making. However, the reason he wasn't kept around was entirely of his own making.

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03-12-2010, 02:12 PM
  #556
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I was at the game and I saw St. Pattys day t-shirts that had "O'Pronger" and "O'Richards" on the back. Anyone know where these are for sale? I can not find them. I can only find ones that are green, have there normal names on the back.

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03-12-2010, 02:12 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Osgood has put together some nice runs in the playoffs, and has proven capable of handling the situation in Detroit...where you didn't get to see a lot of the puck. He isn't a bad goalie, but he's never been anything "special" as far as a goalie, and his talent level is easily comparable to the vast majority of goalies in the league throughout his tenure.

It's certainly fair to pick him over anyone we've had, but I don't think it's clear cut and I think Osgood's career owes a great deal to his good fortune of being drafted by a juggernaut.
I think that's fair, I'll agree with you there.

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03-12-2010, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Maybe, but the situation was what it was...and Cechmanek's problems have followed him elsewhere. So, to paint it as he's some innocent lamb and it was just the Flyers organization that treated him poorly...doesn't hold up.

It was well established while Cechmanek was here that he was introverted, didn't really hang out with people, so on and so forth. And that's fine and all, but it also means that there's a pretty good chance he didn't have anyone really speaking up for him within that room.

You'll also note that I think he was excellent (though flawed) while he was here between the pipes, and that the problems with those teams were not of his making. However, the reason he wasn't kept around was entirely of his own making.
i dont disagree at all about his personality and i dont think the lfyers treated him bad at asll. I just think clarke should hacve told the players, like he did with lindros to stop acting like babies. IMO because he was euro guy clarke just took the easy way out and moved him

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03-12-2010, 02:22 PM
  #559
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i dont disagree at all about his personality and i dont think the lfyers treated him bad at asll. I just think clarke should hacve told the players, like he did with lindros to stop acting like babies. IMO because he was euro guy clarke just took the easy way out and moved him
Eh, I think he got tired of Ottawa proving they had Cechmanek figured out more than anything else. Not to mention his propensity to give up goofy/weak goals.

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03-12-2010, 02:33 PM
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Eh, I think he got tired of Ottawa proving they had Cechmanek figured out more than anything else. Not to mention his propensity to give up goofy/weak goals.
I agree with this, too.

Cechmanek was insanely good at making some crazy, reactionary saves....but his game had flaws and issues in it, and teams figured these problems out.

I think that's why he wound up leaving the league in general....people figured out what the book on him was, and learned how to exploit it.

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03-12-2010, 02:34 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I agree with this, too.

Cechmanek was insanely good at making some crazy, reactionary saves....but his game had flaws and issues in it, and teams figured these problems out.

I think that's why he wound up leaving the league in general....people figured out what the book on him was, and learned how to exploit it.
He was just so aggressive...if you showed any patience he would get himself wildly out of position.

I will never forget the dropped glove goal against Toronto, though.

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03-12-2010, 02:54 PM
  #562
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He was just so aggressive...if you showed any patience he would get himself wildly out of position.

I will never forget the dropped glove goal against Toronto, though.
Oh, the humanity!

Win or lose, though, at least he was wildly entertaining.

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03-12-2010, 03:12 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Back ups...playing goaltender...in the NHL. Ya know, the same friggin position. And, that's without getting into the definition of a backup...which apparently is problematic for you. Your view of Biron as merely a back up is your opinion...it is devoid of any attachment to a reality in which Biron has been a starter for two different teams, and for 5 combined seasons.
It is the same ****ing position if you are a flyers fan because this is what we do in Philly. Give fresh starts chumps and **** up our seasons because of that.

Biron was given a starter job in Buff because they are too cheap to sign any UFA and he was given a job here in Philadelphia. Now thats a ****ing surprise lol.

Am I talking to some one that thinks Biron is a better goalie then Ozzie.. Create a public poll then, Osgood vs Biron vs Cechmanek. Something that you will not do because fans will ****ing laugh at you..

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03-12-2010, 03:21 PM
  #564
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Its not just D-men sir, its TEAM defense.

See: Detriot Red Wings 2008 Stanley Cup Winners.
See: Detriot Red Wings 2009 Stanley Cup Runner-ups.
Are you comparing Detroit to Philadelphia? Detroit is my 3rd favorite team behind Flyers and Washington.

Obviously you do not watch them and just check stats like most fans do.

Flyers have miles to go in order to reach Detroit. Miles.

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03-12-2010, 03:25 PM
  #565
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It is the same ****ing position if you are a flyers fan because this is what we do in Philly. Give fresh starts chumps and **** up our seasons because of that.
How did Biron **** up our season? He and Nitty backstopped the the team to the 5th highest SVPCT in the league last year, coming off another good year...and had two solid playoffs for us (in one of which he was exceptional in a Game 7 OT win, and then carried the team through the series against Montreal).

So, again, once you check in with reality...

And, yes, a goalie is a goalie. The difference between a starter and a backup is their level of talent, not the position that they play. So, it's the same position regardless of what team you're a fan of. Hell, it's not even like baseball where you have situational pitchers or something...a goalie is a goalie.

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Biron was given a starter job in Buff because they are too cheap to sign any UFA and he was given a job here in Philadelphia. Now thats a ****ing surprise lol.
He was given the job in Buffalo because he was a top prospect goalie in their system, and he won the job after Hasek was gone...and proceeded to play quite well. Then had the job taken from him by a better goalie in Ryan Miller.

I do enjoy your revisionist histories, though.

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Am I talking to some one that thinks Biron is a better goalie then Ozzie.. Create a public poll then, Osgood vs Biron vs Cechmanek. Something that you will not do because fans will ****ing laugh at you..
Yes, because public opinion polls are well known for their sagacity.

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03-12-2010, 03:33 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
It is the same ****ing position if you are a flyers fan because this is what we do in Philly. Give fresh starts chumps and **** up our seasons because of that.

Biron was given a starter job in Buff because they are too cheap to sign any UFA and he was given a job here in Philadelphia. Now thats a ****ing surprise lol.

Am I talking to some one that thinks Biron is a better goalie then Ozzie.. Create a public poll then, Osgood vs Biron vs Cechmanek. Something that you will not do because fans will ****ing laugh at you..
...What?

Biron was a high draft pick, and spent time stuck behind one of the best goaltenders of all time.

Then, he inherited the starting roll because he was next in line, and had come up through their system and been in Buffalo for a few years. He was actually very high on their franchise leaders list for goaltender statistics, IIRC. And then he lost his starting job to this guy...what was his name?

Oh yeah, Ryan Miller. Who is quite possibly the best goaltender in the league today (this season, at least).

Biron was hardly 'given' anything, there or here.

And for the record, he acquitted himself rather well in Philly, but this town is by and large clueless about goaltending and made him the scapegoat when he was not the reason we lost to Pitts at all.

In a bizarre world in which the Flyers' brass actually thought goalies mattered, we could have Marty Brodeur and people would still make him the goat for everything that went wrong.

And no, I'm not saying Biron is comparable to Brodeur (I just spent time arguing why Osgood was better than him)...but to say he is garbage and didn't deserve the playing time he got is just silly.

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03-12-2010, 04:47 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
...What?

Biron was a high draft pick, and spent time stuck behind one of the best goaltenders of all time.

Then, he inherited the starting roll because he was next in line, and had come up through their system and been in Buffalo for a few years. He was actually very high on their franchise leaders list for goaltender statistics, IIRC. And then he lost his starting job to this guy...what was his name?

Oh yeah, Ryan Miller. Who is quite possibly the best goaltender in the league today (this season, at least).

Biron was hardly 'given' anything, there or here.

And for the record, he acquitted himself rather well in Philly, but this town is by and large clueless about goaltending and made him the scapegoat when he was not the reason we lost to Pitts at all.

In a bizarre world in which the Flyers' brass actually thought goalies mattered, we could have Marty Brodeur and people would still make him the goat for everything that went wrong.

And no, I'm not saying Biron is comparable to Brodeur (I just spent time arguing why Osgood was better than him)...but to say he is garbage and didn't deserve the playing time he got is just silly.
Agreed. I have two friends who are into hockey and not only do they think Biron sucked with us and is a backup at best, but they also think Crosby sucks and is not a top three player in the league.

I gave up arguing with them a long time ago. No point trying to knock sense into the senseless.

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03-12-2010, 04:57 PM
  #568
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How quickly people forget with Biron. I remember many arguments about how much better Biron was than Niittymaki...this before Biron was even on the team. Now apparently he was always complete crap and doomed to fail wherever he went.

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03-12-2010, 05:40 PM
  #569
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He was given the job in Buffalo because he was a top prospect goalie in their system, and he won the job after Hasek was gone...and proceeded to play quite well. Then had the job taken from him by a better goalie in Ryan Miller.
Jester, can you make it clarify for me? Are you saying that he won the job or he was given the job? Did he win it after Hasek signed with Detroit?

One more thing.. The job was taken away from him? A mother****ing mystery.

He was next in line and it landed in his lap. Obviously we have different definitions of
winning. Iíll tell you what, how about you start comparing Detroit to Philly, if you need help ask JSTAFF he seems to know everything about it. You were doing so great.
[QUOTE=infidelappel;24460067]...What?

Biron was a high draft pick, and spent time stuck behind one of the best goaltenders of all time.
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Then, he inherited the starting roll because he was next in line, and had come up through their system and been in Buffalo for a few years. He was actually very high on their franchise leaders list for goaltender statistics, IIRC. And then he lost his starting job to this guy...what was his name?

Oh yeah, Ryan Miller. Who is quite possibly the best goaltender in the league today (this season, at least).

Biron was hardly 'given' anything, there or here.
Biron WAS VERY high draft pick. Top 15 top 20 I think? He was very good prospect. I would never argue that. This is not what I am talking about.

Everything else, seems like you are agreeing with me. Biron was given a job in Buffalo for a short period of time after Hasek left (of course he paid his dues), he was given a job in Philly (no question about it), now he can not even outplay 40 year old Rolli ..(If it was Jester he would say, the job was unable to land Biron lol)

He is a very humble guy, gives excellent interviews but very streaky goalie and far from currently far from #1.

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03-13-2010, 09:08 AM
  #570
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
How quickly people forget with Biron. I remember many arguments about how much better Biron was than Niittymaki...this before Biron was even on the team. Now apparently he was always complete crap and doomed to fail wherever he went.
He's a Flyers goaltender. Of course he sucks, is total crap, and this team will never win a damn thing because of it. We could trade for Luongo or Miller and there would still be people who would think they were total garbage.

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03-13-2010, 09:18 AM
  #571
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I would have gotten back to you all sooner but I was home sick, and shut down my computer and laid down as I had a 100.7 temperature.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
So Flyers would be leading 3:1 after 1st period if Bruins had Leighton?

1PP goal by Carter, Asham shot would be a goal and gagne break away would be a goal too. Correct?

Please.. Just yes or no.
Sure. I honestly don't feel like arguing this anymore. So congrats, point for you.

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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
pick words aprat, ok chief. so if the flyers dont limit those chances they have a slim shot to win as their goalie isnt good enough to bail them out. As i said they need to play perfect d every game, that wont happen, for them to not give up 4 or more goals. so when the d has a bad game i guess it is too much to ask the goalie to make the save. didnt realize the goalie was the last line of defense, thanks for pointing thta out. The last line of this defesne isnt that good.
I'm not even going to respond to this. Whenever someone starts talking like a jackass to someone they already lost the argument. Point for me.

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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yeah but some goalie can win a game, even when the D under performs. A guy like Vokoun faces the most shots against in the league, and he doesnt let that stop him from winning (I did not want to pay the price for Vokoun, just an example)

To be a starting goalie in the NHL, you should have to ability to win a game for your team when they are outplayed. Leighton will never do that. He only plays well when the team plays well
That's true. Leighton is unproven, barely had any time as a starter, and is under a boatload more pressure to perform in Philly than Carolina. I'm more than willing to bet that some decent starters in the NHL didn't develop that ability to win a game for their team until they started really playing. The guy's 28 and has 100 games under his belt. Now I realize I'm shooting myself in the foot here, I basically just said that he's never been a starter. But that doesn't mean he can't develop into one.

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03-13-2010, 10:56 AM
  #572
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Jester, can you make it clarify for me? Are you saying that he won the job or he was given the job? Did he win it after Hasek signed with Detroit?
He won the job...they had Roloson and Noronen there at the time.

Quote:
One more thing.. The job was taken away from him? A mother****ing mystery.
How many goalies could keep their starting job with Ryan Miller standing behind 'em? (The answer this year is pretty much none, as he's arguably the best goalie in the NHL). We're going to give Biron **** for losing his job to Miller? You think Osgood could have kept his job with Ryan Miller sitting there?

Bang up job of living in an alternate reality, though.

Quote:
He was next in line and it landed in his lap. Obviously we have different definitions of
winning.
Clearly we do.

Yours is wrong, and mine is correct. He won out, Buffalo let Roloson go his way, and kept Mika Noronen (another 1st rd pick) as the back up.

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Iíll tell you what, how about you start comparing Detroit to Philly, if you need help ask JSTAFF he seems to know everything about it.
Kaktus, they're hockey teams. Easily comparable.

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You were doing so great.
Nah, just living in reality man.

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