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Kevin Lowe on the Jason Gregor Show

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Old
03-12-2010, 11:06 PM
  #251
Dorian2
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
You sound like you haven't fully accepted the reality of the Oilers situation. Positivity simply for the sake of not being negative is unproductive.
Negativity for the sake of not being positive is even more unproductive

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Old
03-12-2010, 11:18 PM
  #252
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We're not talking about Rexall Drugs, inc. We're talking about the Edmonton Oilers Hockey Club, inc. It's not "big pharma", it's an entertainment company. An entertainment company prospers or fails by the goodwill of its customers.
We were discussing Daryl Katz. Unless I'm mistaken, his billion dollar-plus fortune was largely made through his Rexall branded companies. Through this he earned the wherewithall to purchase the Edmonton Oilers. It's completely relevant because you have to look at the man as a complete picture. The Oilers are also a product. We can debate whether or not the NHL is an Entertainment business if you like, because I actually work within the entertainment industry. WWE and Britney Spears are definitely examples of commodity entertainment. Sports, to me, are not quite the same: Competition packaged with entertainment to appeal to a consumer base in direct competition against commodity entertainment...

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If you want to see what happens when an entertainment company loses the goodwill of its customers, take a look at what happened to the Edmonton Oilers in the early-mid 1990s.
Very poorly run sports franchise I thought. Not very entertaining at the least. The citizens almost paid the heaviest price.

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As discontent with the garbage product the Oilers have put on the ice in the past couple of seasons increases, the Oilers' ownership risks losing that healthy base of season ticket holders and walk-up traffic.
At that, I already intimated to Mr. Moo that one shouldn't assume that Katz is immune to a bottom line with the Oilers. We simply don't know what his bottom line is. He certainly doesn't have to share it with us either, if he doesn't want to. It's a privately owned corporation. I guess I'm simply trying to express is that we ought to consider withholding judgment until the body is actually cold, and KLowe, or Tambo is caught red-handed with a smoking gun?

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Some of us believe that the Oilers will not become a credible NHL franchise again until they have competent management. Some of us believe that the Oilers will never be successful while they're run by Lowe and Tambellini.
I actually share this belief. It's true, I do! I just don't think that a mob-rule will achieve anything positive, because it never really has.

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Maybe what we think just doesn't make any difference. And if that's the case, then so be it. But maybe if enough people start feeling the same way, the Oilers will take steps to rectify the situation. We can only hope.
But haven't we already seen a bit of 'contrite' from both KLowe and Tambo? We're delusional if we think that one of them will call a press conference and say "You know? we ****ed up. Yes, we did. Big time. All those folks who endlessly lambasted us through the media and online were right all along".

Katz likely won't risk big moves within his organization without doing all sorts of careful analysis and risk-assessment, fan-boy or not. We clearly can't or refuse to see what might just as well be a 10-yr or longer overview of his plans for the Oilers. That might be a very depressing thought, however, consider that his goal might just be that the Oilers NEVER leave Edmonton and become the model NHL franchise of the 21st century along the way. There's a lot of years of stumbling and bad-decisions to undo. A new shiny Arena is definitely part of the picture. Edmonton needs to heal it's psyche!

Unfortunately, I too, can only merely speculate. Who really knows, other than Katz, and his confidants.

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03-12-2010, 11:21 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Negativity for the sake of not being positive is even more unproductive
Don't confuse someone being realistic with someone being not positive on purpose.

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Old
03-12-2010, 11:23 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
Don't confuse someone being realistic with someone being not positive on purpose.
How can anyone possibly be realistic when we don't have information? There is no reality there is only speculation at this point.

Frankly, there is no reason to be positive or negative until we know more.

IMO and yes I am only speculating that it is similar to his other foot and therefore not that big of a deal but in reality I can not be sure that is the case.

You could be right that it is much worse that his other foot and will take 10 months to heal but neither scenario is YET realistic.

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03-13-2010, 12:35 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Horcoff has a NO Movement clause and it was for the first FOUR years of his deal, so he has three years left on it. THey can't waive him, trade him or loan him to the ECHL without his consent.

In the fifth year, the Oilers can submit a request to trade him prior to start of the season, and then he has to submit a list of 10 teams that he would agree to go to and they can deal him to one of those ten after July 1st 2013.

In the 6th an final year, 2014/2015 he can be traded, moved or loaned to any team the Oilers choose.

And yes if he is sent to the minors in the final season he doesn't count against the cap, but the team would have to pay him $3 million to play in the AHL.

Do you mind if I ask where this info is from?

CapGeek lists Horcoff as having a NTC through the end of 2011-12. I do not know what they base that on.

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03-13-2010, 12:49 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
Do you mind if I ask where this info is from?

CapGeek lists Horcoff as having a NTC through the end of 2011-12. I do not know what they base that on.
nhlscap also lists it as a ntc ending in 2012.

Gregor is the only one who I have heard saying it is a nmc.

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03-13-2010, 02:24 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by elpol View Post
We were discussing Daryl Katz. Unless I'm mistaken, his billion dollar-plus fortune was largely made through his Rexall branded companies.
I don't think he got to where he is in life by letting incompetents run any of his business enterprises. I don't think he got where he is in life by accepting failure. He is not going to have infinite patience for ineptitude of this magnitude.

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Originally Posted by elpol View Post
WWE and Britney Spears are definitely examples of commodity entertainment. Sports, to me, are not quite the same: Competition packaged with entertainment to appeal to a consumer base in direct competition against commodity entertainment...
The bottom line is that people buy tickets to Oilers games to be entertained. Does the product on the ice really deliver? It might not happen overnight, but eventually people are going to start deciding that there are better uses for their money. Letting the clowns that ran this team into the ground keep running it isn't going to inspire confidence that things are going to improve.


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Very poorly run sports franchise I thought. Not very entertaining at the least. The citizens almost paid the heaviest price.
They're poorly run right now, and they're certainly not entertaining. How long are people going to keep faithfully renewing their seasons tickets to see this garbage?


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Originally Posted by elpol View Post
At that, I already intimated to Mr. Moo that one shouldn't assume that Katz is immune to a bottom line with the Oilers. We simply don't know what his bottom line is. He certainly doesn't have to share it with us either, if he doesn't want to. It's a privately owned corporation. I guess I'm simply trying to express is that we ought to consider withholding judgment until the body is actually cold, and KLowe, or Tambo is caught red-handed with a smoking gun?
Withhold judgment until what?

We have to have absolute incontrovertible evidence that Lowe and Tambellini are incompetent before we call for their dismissal? How long do they get? They've already had longer than a lot of management teams...



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Originally Posted by elpol View Post
But haven't we already seen a bit of 'contrite' from both KLowe and Tambo? We're delusional if we think that one of them will call a press conference and say "You know? we ****ed up. Yes, we did. Big time. All those folks who endlessly lambasted us through the media and online were right all along".
I don't care if they're contrite or not. I just want them to be over.

Contrite or not, they've proven over the past several seasons that they're just not the right people to lead this franchise back to respectability. They've proven that they're the wrong people to put in charge of cleaning up this gigantic mess that they've created.

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Originally Posted by elpol View Post
Katz likely won't risk big moves within his organization without doing all sorts of careful analysis and risk-assessment, fan-boy or not. We clearly can't or refuse to see what might just as well be a 10-yr or longer overview of his plans for the Oilers. That might be a very depressing thought, however, consider that his goal might just be that the Oilers NEVER leave Edmonton and become the model NHL franchise of the 21st century along the way. There's a lot of years of stumbling and bad-decisions to undo. A new shiny Arena is definitely part of the picture. Edmonton needs to heal it's psyche!

Unfortunately, I too, can only merely speculate. Who really knows, other than Katz, and his confidants.
There's no reason why either of these buffoons has to be on board for any of that process. There's plenty of reason to think that none of that is really going to come to fruition until these clowns get their pink slips.

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03-13-2010, 04:20 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
nhlscap also lists it as a ntc ending in 2012.

Gregor is the only one who I have heard saying it is a nmc.
Why would he come here and give us information that is so readily proven wrong ? That's a very odd thing to do .

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03-13-2010, 04:28 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Why would he come here and give us information that is so readily proven wrong ? That's a very odd thing to do .
I dont know. Im just saying that other sources contradict his information. Im not saying he is right or wrong, but he has been wrong enough times in the past that Im not just going to take his word for it. Especially when he hasnt addressed the issue. (his info vs nhlscap and capgeek)

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03-13-2010, 10:48 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
nhlscap also lists it as a ntc ending in 2012.

Gregor is the only one who I have heard saying it is a nmc.
I could be completely out to lunch on this but I think I do remember something about a Nmc in his contract? But I am going by memory. So, I certainly wouldn't bet any money on it!

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03-13-2010, 12:48 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
Do you mind if I ask where this info is from?

CapGeek lists Horcoff as having a NTC through the end of 2011-12. I do not know what they base that on.
Agent. And speaking with other agents, the No movement clause is pretty standard now because it protects him from being waived. Althought they said some superstars, like Zetterberg, have no-trade instead of a no-movement. And some guys like Malkin and Crosby, their N0-movement clause doesn't kick in until they reach the age of UFA.

Capgeek and nhlscap are very good, but agents have told me that not all the info there is 100% accurate. Most of it is, and in this case I guess they are wrong. The contract filed with the league says it is a no-movement clause. I checked with the league.


Last edited by Jason Gregor: 03-13-2010 at 01:00 PM.
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Old
03-13-2010, 01:02 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Agent. And speaking with other agents, the No movement clause is pretty standard now because it protects him from being waived. Althought they said some superstars, like Zetterberg, have no-trade instead of a no-movement. And some guys like Malkin and Crosby, their N0-movement clause doesn't kick in until they reach the age of UFA.

Capgeek and nhlscap are very good, but agents have told me that not all the info there is 100% accurate. Most of it is, and in this case I guess they are wrong. The contract filed with the league says it is a no-movement clause. I checked with the league.
Thanks for clarifying that Jason.

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03-13-2010, 01:17 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Agent. And speaking with other agents, the No movement clause is pretty standard now because it protects him from being waived. Althought they said some superstars, like Zetterberg, have no-trade instead of a no-movement. And some guys like Malkin and Crosby, their N0-movement clause doesn't kick in until they reach the age of UFA.

Capgeek and nhlscap are very good, but agents have told me that not all the info there is 100% accurate. Most of it is, and in this case I guess they are wrong. The contract filed with the league says it is a no-movement clause. I checked with the league.

Thanks.

Here's hoping his performance eliminates this as a concern for fans.

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03-13-2010, 02:37 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Agent. And speaking with other agents, the No movement clause is pretty standard now because it protects him from being waived. Althought they said some superstars, like Zetterberg, have no-trade instead of a no-movement. And some guys like Malkin and Crosby, their N0-movement clause doesn't kick in until they reach the age of UFA.

Capgeek and nhlscap are very good, but agents have told me that not all the info there is 100% accurate. Most of it is, and in this case I guess they are wrong. The contract filed with the league says it is a no-movement clause. I checked with the league.
I'm still a little confused on the last two years of his contract.

OK, so there's a NMC for the first 4 years, but then he can submit a list of 10 teams to be traded to in the 5th year?

So technically isn't his 5th season only a limited NTC and not an NMC? And if it is technically an NTC ... then what could he do if the Oilers sent him to the AHL that year? Because an NTC does not prohibit a team from burying a player in the minors, only an NMC can do that I think.

I'm not really worried about it being an NMC versus NTC for the first 4 years any how as it's pretty damn unlikely anyone would want to trade for him anyway.


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03-13-2010, 02:40 PM
  #265
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Thanks, Jason.

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Old
03-13-2010, 03:01 PM
  #266
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Thanks Gregor.

Nice to see a radio guy come on the board and not whine like a little girl....

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03-13-2010, 04:34 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Agent. And speaking with other agents, the No movement clause is pretty standard now because it protects him from being waived. Althought they said some superstars, like Zetterberg, have no-trade instead of a no-movement. And some guys like Malkin and Crosby, their N0-movement clause doesn't kick in until they reach the age of UFA.

Capgeek and nhlscap are very good, but agents have told me that not all the info there is 100% accurate. Most of it is, and in this case I guess they are wrong. The contract filed with the league says it is a no-movement clause. I checked with the league.
Thanks for clearing this up. Now if you could ask Tambellini about the foot issue with Whitney it would be much appreciated. I know there are lots of us that would like to hear him on the record about this issue.

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03-13-2010, 04:55 PM
  #268
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Thanks for clearing this up. Now if you could ask Tambellini about the foot issue with Whitney it would be much appreciated. I know there are lots of us that would like to hear him on the record about this issue.

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03-13-2010, 04:56 PM
  #269
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Thanks for clearing this up. Now if you could ask Tambellini about the foot issue with Whitney it would be much appreciated. I know there are lots of us that would like to hear him on the record about this issue.
Whitney will likely need the same surgery he had on his left foot. He is extremely happy with how the first one went, and wants the same surgery. There is nothing confirmed, but he'll probably have surgery right after the season.

It's not that they traded for him while injured. Because he can play with it, it is just uncomfortable and painful, so he wants the surgery to rectify the problem. If he has it right after the season ends, there is no reason he won't be fully healed by training camp. But nothing is confirmed this will happen, but considering he mentioned it to Brownlee without us asking it is clear he wants to have the surgery.

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03-13-2010, 05:00 PM
  #270
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Also if you could clarification on Horcoff's 5th year -- if it's an NTC and whether that allows the Oilers to assign him to the AHL if they so choose.

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03-13-2010, 05:02 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Jason Gregor View Post
Whitney will likely need the same surgery he had on his left foot. He is extremely happy with how the first one went, and wants the same surgery. There is nothing confirmed, but he'll probably have surgery right after the season.

It's not that they traded for him while injured. Because he can play with it, it is just uncomfortable and painful, so he wants the surgery to rectify the problem. If he has it right after the season ends, there is no reason he won't be fully healed by training camp. But nothing is confirmed this will happen, but considering he mentioned it to Brownlee without us asking it is clear he wants to have the surgery.
Thanks again. I thought it would be similar to his other foot.

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03-13-2010, 05:02 PM
  #272
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I'm still a little confused on the last two years of his contract.

OK, so there's a NMC for the first 4 years, but then he can submit a list of 10 teams to be traded to in the 5th year?

So technically isn't his 5th season only a limited NTC and not an NMC? And if it is technically an NTC ... then what could he do if the Oilers sent him to the AHL that year? Because an NTC does not prohibit a team from burying a player in the minors, only an NMC can do that I think.

I'm not really worried about it being an NMC versus NTC for the first 4 years any how as it's pretty damn unlikely anyone would want to trade for him anyway.
Good question. In the final year, they could waive him if they choose. In the fifth year, the only thing that changes is that he has to submit a list of ten teams, and they can move him to any of those ten teams. (Supposedly the wording says he can be moved to any of those teams, and no others, and that wording includes moved to an AHL team). He can't be waived in that season. But he can in the final one. I still think it is way to early to predict how he will be playing in five years.

Of course if he plays like this year, he would probably be waived or bought out. The final year of his deal he is only paid $3million, so that buy out isn't as costly. But way to far away for any of us to realistically predict how he will be playing. The only thing I'd safely say is that few, if any, will think he is producing worthy of his cap hit. I doubt that will ever change. But if by then the team has young guys scoring and he is playing all the "tough" minutes it might, and I mean MIGHT, be bearable.

If he doesn't improve, I think this option of being bought out might happen after year four, but not before.

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03-13-2010, 05:05 PM
  #273
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Good question. In the final year, they could waive him if they choose. In the fifth year, the only thing that changes is that he has to submit a list of ten teams, and they can move him to any of those ten teams. He can't be waived in that season. But he can in the final one. I still think it is way to early to predict how he will be playing in five years.

Of course if he plays like this year, he would probably be waived or bought out. The final year of his deal he is only paid $3million, so that buy out isn't as costly. But way to far away for any of us to realistically predict how he will be playing. The only thing I'd safely say is that few, if any, will think he is producing worthy of his cap hit. I doubt that will ever change. But if by then the team has young guys scoring and he is playing all the "tough" minutes it might, and I mean MIGHT, be bearable.

If he doesn't improve, I think this option of being bought out might happen after year four, but not before.
An NTC is still an NTC though, I don't think an NTC protects him from being sent to the minors. It has to be an NMC in year five ... I don't think I've seen another player with a conditional NMC either, that's kinda weird.

I really don't care what he's playing like 2 or 3 years down the line, at this point, I just don't care.

The reason why 3 years is important for the Oilers is because if they do get Hall/Seguin in the draft this year that will likely be the summer they have to ink that player to an extension (could also be Eberle and/or MPS if they make the team next season to boot).

We need cap flexibility that summer (three years down the road).

I'm done with caring about Horcoff, his performance is on him, but I don't want his contract to interfere with us being to sign/retain a core ... like the headaches Chicago has gone through to retain Kane/Toews/Keith/etc. because they signed some stupid contracts before hand (ie: Huet).


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03-13-2010, 05:12 PM
  #274
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Tambo: So Ales, how's it going? How's the popcorn up here in the pressbox? Anything I can get you to make you feel at home and useful up here?

Hemsky: No, I just wish I could be on the ice.

Tambo: Whoa, whoa. Hold your horses there Ales. Don't get too excited yet. There's a lot of healing that needs to happen... Listen Ales. We've been given the green light to tank next season, and you...well you make it really difficult to do..

Hemsky: I'm NOT going to take a year off just to eat popcorn and wave to my girlfriend from the pressbox! Forget that!..

Tambo: NO, NO...of course not - we'd never make you do that buddy, relax... I kid, I kid (jabs him hard in the shoulder).

Hemsky: Hmph. AAHHH! OOOOW!

Tambo: Oh, piss poor luck! Was that your bad shoulder?





Re: Horcoff, I think you are right on the money, literally and figuratively. He should be tradeable then. I don't mind him around as a third line centre taking the hard minutes. He may even have a bounce back year. Lots of lower income teams would value a 2nd line centre for an average of 3.5 million salary for two years with a cap hit of 5.5 mill. The last two years, he should be very tradable.

Re: trading with CLB, I could see something like this happening. You are right - Hemsky is exactly what they need - he and Nash could be electric. They have been rebuilding for a gazillion years now with little success to show for it. I could see them being willing to get a top liner to play with Nash on the cheap.

I think the "+ ???" in your proposal would have to be substantial to get Filatov AND a top 5 pick, IMO:

Hemsky + Omark/Chorney/Nash (hopefully not more than a B prospect) + Nash 2nd

for

Filatov + 5th ish

Then I would take Hall/Seguin, and Nino, or one of the top Dmen. (Trading down might even be a possibility to get two more 1sts (PHX, ANA)). That would be a fantastic draft and would definately speed up the rebuild - something that they WILL want to do in this market.
HE could have been matched up against th etop competition this year too.


But the coaching staff is too stupid to try to run strength against strength.

They have tryed to run strength against checking without realizing Horcoff isnt a cheaker.

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03-13-2010, 05:47 PM
  #275
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Well, if you think it's a poor analogy, go out and find me an example, in any industry, of someone at the helm surviving for four years while the company goes in the crapper at every level. While you're looking, but also count how many got turfed before the stockholders could get a chance to get their pitchforks sharpened.
Kevin Lowe manages more than just the Oilers. You can legitimately criticize him for the state of all hockey affairs, but not just the Edmonton Oilers. Steve Tambellini came in as manager of the Oilers, and is the one most directly responsible for the management of the Oilers. In your stupid analogy, you're claiming that Kevin Lowe, who is moved up and has taken up additional responsibilities, should be the one held most accountable for the Oilers as an entity not performing to expectations. You are wrong.

Since you want to be a jerk about it, show me how many times a guy is moved in to supervise a variety of divisions, and when one guy comes in to replace the original guy, that one division does even worse, it's the original guy that gets fired, not the new guy that replaced him.

Unfortunately for you and your analogy, Steve Tambellini is the one managing the Edmonton Oilers. Not Kevin Lowe. And given your current rebuttal, you're basically saying that the CEO of every company should be fired when parts of the company fail. Criticize Lowe for all hockey operations in their entirety. But if you're focus is exclusively the Oilers, there's someone else that is in control of that division of hockey operations for Katz Sports.

Quote:
Katz is not treating the Oilers like a business. He's treating them like his personal private club, and he's squandering oodles of goodwill.
Goodwill? Or are you referring to your self-constructed, emotional attachment to the Oilers, which leads you to erroneously conclude that the team is some accountable to you?

You're in no position to determine what Katz's plans or intentions are. That you think you are is laughable.


Quote:
I'm blaming it on Lowe.
Then yay for you, he's no longer the General Manager of the Edmonton Oilers. You know, the position he was in when you felt he ****ed up the team.

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