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The highest paid role player in NHL history

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Old
03-15-2010, 06:46 PM
  #51
TMI
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Shucks... I seem to have been at work during the peak of yet another "OMG LEGWAND SUXXORRZZZ" thread...

/sarcasm

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Old
03-15-2010, 07:42 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Honestly, I think it'd been very interesting if Legwand had gone elsewhere-- and we could settle this debate once and for all.

Sure, it's easier to look in retrospect. But, that's where the good and bad are separated. In retrospect, many of Poile's moves the last few years are not looking great (lewgand 4.5, dumont 4.0, forseberg, witt). In retrospect, Phx has made some great moves the last couple of years (Bryz on waviers, Upshall for a fighter, Vrbata for a bag of pucks, etc), which has put them in a good position this year, and going forward. I also admire that they had the b*** to say Peter Mueller isn't working out the way we anticipated, we're going to make a change, and get some value for him.
Let's see, you've made mention of all the moves you think Poile has failed at. I agree that some of those moves were not that great. How about the great moves he's made.

1. Drafting Suter and Weber in the same year. He got an elite defensive pairing. How many GM's have ever done that in one draft.

2. Drafted Hornqvist with the last pick in a draft and he's scored 26 goals in his first full NHL season and it isn't over yet.

3. He's drafted Rinne, Erat and Tootoo in the later rounds and they've all become productive NHL players.

4. He picked up Marcel Goc for next to nothing and re-signed him for under a million for next year.

5. He picked up Joel Ward out of a scrap heap in Minny and has become one of our more steady players in recent memory.

6. He signed Bouillon in training camp and has arguably been our 3rd best defenseman this year.

7. He moved up 2 spots in the draft to select Colin Wilson and then moved down 3 spots to pick up Chet Pickard.

8. He selected Blum as a number 1 pick and is on track to be in the NHL within a year and looks to be a pretty darn good player.

9. Of all the number 1 picks Poile has picked, only Finley has been a bust. Too early to tell on guys like Blum, Ellis and Radulov but his draft history has been pretty solid.

10. He picked up Sully for 2 second round picks.

11. I could go on and on. Yes, he's made some bad moves but in reality, he's made many more good moves than bad ones. If you had said you've lost talent like Heatley, Kovalchuk, Savard and Coburn and basically have nothing to show for it, then I'd say he failed as a GM but that has not been the case with Poile.

One last thing, considering the budget Poile has to work with on a year to year basis, to have this team in the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and be fighting for a spot again this year is a testament to his skills of putting a roster on the ice within his financial requirements. Look at a team like the Rangers who have Drury signed to over $7 million, Redden at $6.5 million and Rozsival at $5 million, talk about not building your team properly.

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03-15-2010, 08:12 PM
  #53
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I am not a poile hater (except on trade deadline day but that's not personal). He has made mistakes in the past, but all most have been quickly realized and or mistakes that were only temporary( ex witt, forsberg,houlder.....). But this is one that in my opinion he has missed and I guess I just don't see what he does in Leggy. If he was making 2mil I would have no problem with it and probably love the guy. But to me all legwand has done is under perform since he was drafted number 2 overall.

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:17 PM
  #54
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And you can't tell me that Leggy was drafted to be a defensive offensemen. He was drafted so high because of the huge OFFENSIVE numbers he was putting up in the OHL.

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:23 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshin29 View Post
And you can't tell me that Leggy was drafted to be a defensive offensemen. He was drafted so high because of the huge OFFENSIVE numbers he was putting up in the OHL.
Go back and look at the first round of that draft...without making any major "off the board" leaps, tell me who would you have rather selected with the No. 2 overall pick in the draft?

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:27 PM
  #56
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This is the legwand we thought we were drafting http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/draft98/fs02.htm

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:34 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshin29 View Post
This is the legwand we thought we were drafting http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/draft98/fs02.htm
And yet, the guy has given the Predators 11 years of service. Don't think we got swindled and really can't put much faith into a projection of the player someone thought he would become twelve years ago...

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:39 PM
  #58
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That's why you draft a player.... his projected future and intuition. And in this case both were off.

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:41 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshin29 View Post
This is the legwand we thought we were drafting http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/draft98/fs02.htm
Quote:
Although he does not feature the all-around game of top overall pick Vincent Lecavalier, Legwand is considered more of a pure scorer. He had 54 goals and 51 assists in 59 games while posting a plus-50 in his first season of major junior hockey.
Funny, I think while Vinny has developed into more of the pure scorer, Legwand has turned into more of a complete player...Lecavalier is expected to outscore his opponent every night, while Legwand keeps his opponent off the scoresheet every night...

I'm certainly not happy about Leggy's lack of goal-scoring this season, but don't discount his value to the team because of it either...

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:48 PM
  #60
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I find it funny that nobody really talks about Goc when referring to Legwand or players like Peverly..... Other than drafting a goalie in the first round which is always considered high risk, have the Preds "busted" on a first round pick?

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by joshin29 View Post
That's why you draft a player.... his projected future and intuition. And in this case both were off.
So how many GM's were wrong about Weber? All of them. How many were wrong about Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg? All of them once again. Go back and look at every draft and all of them have their great stories and their busts. Is Legwand a bust because he hasn't put up monster offensive numbers? Maybe, maybe not. Look at two guys in the sixth round that year, Andrei Markov and Datsyuk. Who would've guessed that you'd have two all-stars at that point in the draft. Just because a guy puts up monster numbers in the juniors doesn't mean his game translates to the NHL. Has Legwand been a productive NHL player for the last 10 years? I'd have to say yes to that. Has he been pretty consistent that entire time, I'd have to say yes as well. Look a guy like Tanguay, great early on but would you want him now? I wouldn't. Gagne has been pretty decent but I don't think he's been better or worse than Legwand and he was passed on by 21 teams in the first round. Gomez was skipped over by 26 teams.

There are gems in every draft and there are busts. A guy is a bust if he never makes it to the NHL. Poile has had one in Finley that has done that. His record of drafting guys that can play in the NHL has been pretty good. I'd go back and look at percentages of other teams and their success rate of number 1 picks playing the NHL but I really don't have the time or patience at this point to do so. I'd say that Poile's is probably right up there with the best of them.

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Old
03-15-2010, 08:59 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang View Post
I find it funny that nobody really talks about Goc when referring to Legwand or players like Peverly..... Other than drafting a goalie in the first round which is always considered high risk, have the Preds "busted" on a first round pick?
Heck, why does no one talk about Dumont like this either? Two years previous Dumont was drafter 3rd overall by the Islanders yet no one talks about the disappointment in his game.

I could go back and dissect NHL drafts for the last 15-20 years if I was that bored. It's a crap shoot at best. Two years in a row, the Rangers picked Manny Malholtra and Pavel Brendl with top 10 picks. The next year they didn't have a top 10 pick then the following year they picked Dan Blackburn.

In those same 4 years we picked Legwand, Finley, Hartnell and Hamhuis. I'd say we did pretty well there. Then again, what do I know.

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Old
03-15-2010, 09:28 PM
  #63
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discussions like this always wind up in circular logic....or is that a circle jerk????

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03-15-2010, 09:39 PM
  #64
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Legwand is a 20 goal guy, probably 50-60 point guy. In a good year, he is in the high 20s, mid-60s. When he is paired with Jered Smithson and JOel Ward, all bets are off. Honestly, if you expect Smithson to be anything but a drag on legwand, you do not follow hockey. The sheer fact that Smithson has 9 goals should speak volumes about what is going on here......Legwand's offense is being sucked dry by slow as mud but hard working Ward and hands of stone/can't receive a pass Smithson.

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Old
03-15-2010, 09:47 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Look at a team like the Rangers who have Drury signed to over $7 million, Redden at $6.5 million and Rozsival at $5 million, talk about not building your team properly.
Nice, always point to teams that have done worse than us as an example of how great Poile is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
5. He picked up Joel Ward out of a scrap heap in Minny and has become one of our more steady players in recent memory.
Wait, I thought Ward was trash, and he is one of the reasons Legwand is being held back offensively

By Poile's own admission, he didn't expect Ward to make the NHL.

There are some of your "top 10 Poile moves" that deserve some praise, however many happened 7 years ago. 3 of your top 10 Poile moves are about draft picks who haven't proven anything in the NHL yet (Blum, Wilson, Pickard). And others are signing depth NHL talent (Bouillon, Goc, Ward). Those signings are fine, but if that's the best there is to talk about over the last 5 years...


Last edited by dulzhok: 03-15-2010 at 10:05 PM.
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Old
03-15-2010, 09:58 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Legwand is a 20 goal guy, probably 50-60 point guy. In a good year, he is in the high 20s, mid-60s.
In his 10 seasons, Legwand has scored over 20 goals once, and scored over 48 points once. You can not label him as a "60 point guy."

He's been given ample opportunity over the last 10 years to create offense. There is a reason he's being regulated to a defensive role: #1) He's good defensively. #2) He can not be counted on to generate offense on a consistent basis. Sure, give him 1st line time, and 1st line PP time, he'll put up 50-60 points. But so will Krivokrasov, Kjellberg, Walker, Johansson, Bonk, etc--

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Old
03-15-2010, 10:14 PM
  #67
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I have come to the conclusion that some around here just don't know a thing about hockey. I am leaving this discussion as it's become futile. Part of the arguments are like ColdcChicory's used to be. When asked to provide specific examples, none are given but when examples are given back, they are ignored. I am tired of banging my head against the wall. Have a good night all and go Preds.

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Old
03-15-2010, 10:31 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I have come to the conclusion that some around here just don't know a thing about hockey. I am leaving this discussion as it's become futile. Part of the arguments are like ColdcChicory's used to be. When asked to provide specific examples, none are given but when examples are given back, they are ignored. I am tired of banging my head against the wall. Have a good night all and go Preds.
I'm pretty sure dulzhok is ColdChicory's younger sibling

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Old
03-15-2010, 10:35 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I have come to the conclusion that some around here just don't know a thing about hockey.
Please enlighten us oh holy one.

I didn't ask for your top 10 Poile moves. But if you're going to offer them, I'll give you feedback.

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Old
03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Please enlighten us oh holy one.

I didn't ask for your top 10 Poile moves. But if you're going to offer them, I'll give you feedback.
Go back and read the post again. I never said they were his top 10. I said here are some great moves Poile has made over the years.

Here's the thing, you lay the blame on the player or players when the coach is putting them in certain situations. It would be like, Legwand's a horrible goalie but he was drafted as a center but the coach played him there. Extreme analogy but if Trotz is using Legwand as a shutdown center and Poile gave him the contract that you feel is undeserving, is that all on Legwand? I agree with you, he's overpaid at $4.5 million but I don't think he's grossly overpaid either. I had said earlier in the day $3.5-4 million would've been a better deal.

Someone had asked you earlier in the day, who you would've picked instead of Legwand and yet no response. I'll ask another question in addition to that one, the year he was an UFA, if we let him walk, who should we have signed in his place for the same money?

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03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
  #71
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glenngineer and dulzhok

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Old
03-15-2010, 11:02 PM
  #72
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Jesus, I can't believe I just skimmed a page and a half of this crap. AGAIN.

This is very, very simple. Legwand is a team player. He does whatever the coach asks him to do to make the team better/more competitive. I can't imagine he wouldn't absolutely love to be out there scoring goals every single night, but knows that this is his role. With his speed and vision he has given this team a very, very reliable center to put up against the opponets' better lines. He does whatever is asked, plays through injuries (unless Weber inflicted) and bottom line -- helps this team win games.

What the hell else is everyone expecting from him? This is just absurd. Thankfully, I started drinking well before I logged on here. Somebdy spell-check this for me, please.


For the love of God, please let this be the last time this is discussed, and just appreciate the fact that we're in a playoff hunt, (slightly) ahead of the Wings and most assuredly will finish ahead of the Jackets again (a team that's had MUCH better drafting position, by the way) even though everyone thought we'd be in the back of the pack.

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Old
03-15-2010, 11:05 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by JR303 View Post
Jesus, I can't believe I just skimmed a page and a half of this crap. AGAIN.

This is very, very simple. Legwand is a team player. He does whatever the coach asks him to do to make the team better/more competitive. I can't imagine he wouldn't absolutely love to be out there scoring goals every single night, but knows that this is his role. With his speed and vision he has given this team a very, very reliable center to put up against the opponets' better lines. He does whatever is asked, plays through injuries (unless Weber inflicted) and bottom line -- helps this team win games.

What the hell else is everyone expecting from him? This is just absurd. Thankfully, I started drinking well before I logged on here. Somebdy spell-check this for me, please.


For the love of God, please let this be the last time this is discussed, and just appreciate the fact that we're in a playoff hunt, (slightly) ahead of the Wings and most assuredly will finish ahead of the Jackets again (a team that's had MUCH better drafting position, by the way) even though everyone thought we'd be in the back of the pack.
Your spelling was spot on from what I could tell. One of two things needs to happen, you need to drink more before posting again or keep up the ability to spell while drinking. I say go with option two. Great job.

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Old
03-15-2010, 11:45 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by JR303 View Post
Jesus, I can't believe I just skimmed a page and a half of this crap. AGAIN.

This is very, very simple. Legwand is a team player. He does whatever the coach asks him to do to make the team better/more competitive. I can't imagine he wouldn't absolutely love to be out there scoring goals every single night, but knows that this is his role. With his speed and vision he has given this team a very, very reliable center to put up against the opponets' better lines. He does whatever is asked, plays through injuries (unless Weber inflicted) and bottom line -- helps this team win games.

What the hell else is everyone expecting from him? This is just absurd. Thankfully, I started drinking well before I logged on here. Somebdy spell-check this for me, please.


For the love of God, please let this be the last time this is discussed, and just appreciate the fact that we're in a playoff hunt, (slightly) ahead of the Wings and most assuredly will finish ahead of the Jackets again (a team that's had MUCH better drafting position, by the way) even though everyone thought we'd be in the back of the pack.
"Jesus- We've heard this all before-- but I'm still going to chime in with my opinion. And it's the best opinion! End of discussion!"

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Old
03-16-2010, 12:08 AM
  #75
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Joshin,

Since you didnt respond to the comparable players I found some.

Daymond Langkow - Very similar to Legwand. 4.5m Per

Kristian Huselius - One season of 77 points, but for the most part on par with Legwand with none of the defense 4.75m Per.

Mike Fisher - A Legwand clone. 4.2m Per

Pierre Marc Bouchard - Worse than Legwand 4.08m Per

Milan Lucic - 4.08m Per on a RFA deal which should be much cheaper.

Michal Handzus - Defensive player with worse offense than Legwand 4m per

So looking at players in this salary range for a few teams the only one I would take over Legwand would be Mike Fisher, and thats just because he is about the same at a little cheaper but as a player they are about the same. Legwand's value seems on par with the league anyone who says other wise is starting to be delusional.

Edit- I just did a quick glance and there were a few more players in the 4-5 million range but other than guys who signed a RFA deal or something like a Havlat who is insanely injury prone there are not many players who would be better than Legwand.


Last edited by Webersmashpuck: 03-16-2010 at 12:16 AM.
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