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David Poile, from good to stagnant (long)

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Old
03-16-2010, 12:36 AM
  #26
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I'll rephrase then. Give me an example of a trade or series of moves(including free agent signings) that took a mediocre team and made them great.

Im not counting drafting because if you suck long enough (Pittsburgh, Chicago) great players eventually fall in your lap
Heck, throw in Atlanta with that as well. In a three year period, they drafted Heatley, Kovalchuk and Lehtonen, all with picks that were number 1 or 2 overall and yet, they have nothing to show for them today. Then throw in Coburn at number 8 a few years later and later dealt to Philly for Alexei Zhitnik who no longer plays in the NHL. Then they pick up Marc Savard in a trade only to lose him to free agency later on. Even if you have great players land in your lap, you have to know what to do with them and how to build a team around them.

Pittsburgh was good with a lot of their picks, some were obvious, but when they landed Shero as their GM, who was mentored by Poile, he took pieces and depth in his farm system and dealt accordingly to get them to the Stanley Cup finals one year and then win it the following year.

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03-16-2010, 12:42 AM
  #27
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cop out. dont post your opinions and then get huffy when people disagree. nobody is questioning your status as a fan, or your loyalty. if you dont want to get told you are wrong, dont make statements that are just begging to be disagreed with
5 people who are already against my views is hardly a good sample size.

My concern is for the dormant hockey fans in nashville, and the people in Nashville who don't know hockey yet.

And how to make hockey work in Nashville without a welfare check and a shoe string budget [our current situation].

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03-16-2010, 12:43 AM
  #28
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Capitals dump GM Poile

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Washington reached the division finals only once and exited in the first round on eight occasions

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03-16-2010, 12:44 AM
  #29
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SJ for one. They had an opportunity to get Thornton cheaply, and went for it. Sure, they haven't won it all, but they have built a lot of excitement in a non-traditional market. Also a great trade for Boyle. Mixed in with some good drafting and depth moves, and they are sitting pretty.

Within San Jose's first 11 years of existence, they made it to the 2nd round 4 times. I honestly believe that's why they were able to make hockey work in a non-traditional market.

If we had had success in the playoffs, I think our fanbase would be stronger, and hence, a bigger budget to work with.
I figured youd say San jose but if you count San jose as a "great" team but they havent got out of the second round I dont see how us not getting out of the first round is that much worse.

so you have one team that has made multiple "big" moves and still cant get any farther than they did after making the first of those moves (thornton). doesnt sound all that great to me, and they are in cap trouble, plus I have no idea if they have much left in the draft picks or prospects department after making all those trades.

other than that, all the recent "rags to riches" teams have improved mainly via the draft (Chicago, Pitt, Wash, LAK, and even before that Vancouver and Anaheim, who both used to suck mightily but are now contenders year in and year out)

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03-16-2010, 12:46 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
SJ for one. They had an opportunity to get Thornton cheaply, and went for it. Sure, they haven't won it all, but they have built a lot of excitement in a non-traditional market. Also a great trade for Boyle. Mixed in with some good drafting and depth moves, and they are sitting pretty.

Within San Jose's first 11 years of existence, they made it to the 2nd round 4 times. I honestly believe that's why they were able to make hockey work in a non-traditional market, buidling a big fan base, which allowed them to have a bigger budget.
Sitting pretty? Are you kidding? Until they get to a Conference Finals or Stanley Cup finals, they're a bigger joke than we are. All that talent and great regular seasons don't mean squat. We get to the playoffs like they do on a shoestring budget compared to them and they haven't done anything of note come playoff time. Boyle was one of their better pick ups but Thornton for all his accolades is the stay puft marshmallow man. He folds in the playoffs. Give us their salary cap and the ability to land another top player or two and we are right there with them.

A funny stat was said the other day during the game with them. They have 6 guys with over 30 points and we have 9 guys with over 30. They have some monster studs on that team but they have no depth. They have show stoppers an elite line when Jumbo Joe, Pattie and Dany are all together but beyond that, other than Pavelski, who do they have? They have Boyle and Blake on D, Clowe up front, it's not that scary of a team in reality. The reason they dominate is that top line has space in the regular season to operate. Come playoff time, the battles become that much tougher, every inch of the ice is fought for and those guys just won't go to those tough areas.

I dislike Detroit but one thing their top guys do, is battle. Say what you will about Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but come playoff time, those guys are warriors. They go to the hard areas. They battle and take their games to another level. Until I see the boys in SJ do that, I'm reserving judgement on them sitting pretty.

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03-16-2010, 12:48 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
5 people who are already against my views is hardly a good sample size.

My concern is for the dormant hockey fans in nashville, and the people in Nashville who don't know hockey yet.

And how to make hockey work in Nashville without a welfare check and a shoe string budget [our current situation].
I wasnt commenting on how many people agreed or disagreed with you. just saying if you are going to post you cant reasonably complain about being disagreed with

the problem with your thesis is that it is not guaranteed to produce the desired result(and in fact is more likely not to work) and if it goes badly it will be disasterous, whereas the current course may take a while longer to produce a deep run, but is much less likely to have catastrophic failure.

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03-16-2010, 12:48 AM
  #32
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contrast them with San Jose, who has made multiple trades and free agent acquisitions and still hasnt made it out of the second round. Sure, that may well change this year, but it still shows that making bold moves and taking risks doesnt always yield dividends.
Do you really want to compare our success in the playoffs over the past few years with the Sharks' success? They may not have gone deep in the playoffs, but they've gone farther than the Preds.

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03-16-2010, 12:49 AM
  #33
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Sitting pretty? Are you kidding?
Nope, I'm dead serious. They have a big fan base, and they are making hockey work in a non traditional market.

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03-16-2010, 12:51 AM
  #34
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Would you rather be the tortoise or the hare?

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03-16-2010, 12:52 AM
  #35
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I wasnt commenting on how many people agreed or disagreed with you. just saying if you are going to post you cant reasonably complain about being disagreed with

the problem with your thesis is that it is not guaranteed to produce the desired result(and in fact is more likely not to work) and if it goes badly it will be disasterous, whereas the current course may take a while longer to produce a deep run, but is much less likely to have catastrophic failure.
Nothing is guaranteed to do anything.

I'm not saying I have all the answers; I just don't think DP is the one who's going to take us to the next level.

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03-16-2010, 12:52 AM
  #36
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Do you really want to compare our success in the playoffs over the past few years with the Sharks' success? They may not have gone deep in the playoffs, but they've gone farther than the Preds.
exactly one round farther. not a bit more. and yet they have spent tons more money and made all thses "aggressive" moves, while we had a fire sale and have spent below the cap midpoint.

so yes, the Sharks situation makes MY point, and refutes dulzhoks...

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03-16-2010, 12:55 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Nothing is guaranteed to do anything.

I'm not saying I have all the answers; I just don't think DP is the one who's going to take us to the next level.
well, I again say his way is more likely to eventually produce a surprise run from a low seed (Like the Ducks, Wild, and Oil all did in recent memory) than aggressive trades. and all it will take is one such run to get us to the "tipping point"

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03-16-2010, 12:59 AM
  #38
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Nope, I'm dead serious. They have a big fan base, and they are making hockey work in a non traditional market.
again this seems to be the fact you cant get..
they had more money they have more money.. you cant do it with out the money...
and your shrude clueless comet about "welfare check" proves that ..
They have spent much more then us EVERY year along the way .. they had the money to do it we don't yet.. you forget how close this team was to moving only a short while ago?

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03-16-2010, 01:00 AM
  #39
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well u already know i disagree as for the other thread where we went on and on...
But find it weird they all are saying same thing i was? And not one fan agrees with you?
again you have big market expectations on one of the smallest market teams..
I agree somewhat with Dulzhok. The greatest strides this franchise has made was when we brought in skilled players like Arny, Sully, and Kariya, and Forsberg to supplement our solid roster players. Sure we were knocked out the playoffs in the 1st round the year Foppa came in, but we had one of the best regular season records in the league. The abovementioned players were not "depth" trades. I'd love to see a few more acquisitions comparable to an Arnott level guy. Since we sold off the team when Leopold left town, we have made zero bold moves.

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03-16-2010, 01:04 AM
  #40
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exactly one round farther. not a bit more. and yet they have spent tons more money and made all thses "aggressive" moves, while we had a fire sale and have spent below the cap midpoint.

so yes, the Sharks situation makes MY point, and refutes dulzhoks...
Sharks built a big fan base my having playoff success within their first 10 years. This is allowing them to have a bigger budget. Sure, they are struggling to get over the next hump-- winning it all.

What I like is they aren't sitting around for it to happen. They traded some of their drafted players for Heatley. Some will say "they have a bigger budget" to do this. Well, Chechoo + Michalek's salary is close to Heatleys. Will it work out? I don't know, but there are a ton of people in SJ waiting (and paying) to see.

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03-16-2010, 01:09 AM
  #41
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Let me check something here. We lose to SJ in the playoffs, have our team sold in the offseason but before we do our GM is told to dismantle the team and in doing so has to trade an all-star goalie, a top pairing defenseman, a young power forward, let a scoring forward go via free agency, let his trade acquisition go then sign a bunch of retreads in Bonk, deVries and Ortmeyer to replace them YET, we still manage to make the playoffs the following year, compete to the last week of the season last year and then continue to challenge for a spot this year, all the while, our GM has done nothing to help the cause. Wait for it, in the dismantling, he was able to add picks which have turned into Wilson, Blum and Spaling, three guys who will be with this team for a long time.

Imagine if we were able to keep even one of the guys we had to let go. If we have Vokoun, we have the ability to trade Rinne for depth. If we keep Timonen, are defense is that much better and the ability to trade some of our younger players if we needed to add depth. If we had kept Hartnell, we would've had another big body presence in front of the net. If we had been able to re-sign Kariya, quite possibly Legwand and Erat continue putting up 60 point seasons. All in all, I think we're doing pretty well.

I would like to get out of the first round of the playoffs and have been pretty vocal about getting rid of Trotz and staff as they have failed at this time of year. This year, I just have a different feeling about this team. Every time we have looked like we were going to fold or fall apart, we come back and win a game. It's a testament to the coaches and players in that locker room to keep it together and never lose faith in one another. While it will be a tough road to get out of the first round this year if we face either SJ or Chicago, I say bring em on. One thing for sure, this team will not go down without a fight and I truly believe we have the right chemistry and make up to get it done this year and advance past the first round.

You have your beliefs and opinions in Poile and that's fine. Shoot em out there and let's discuss. I just have a different perspective on things. I have seen some of my favorite teams over the years throw big dollars at players but to no avail and then they decide, let's develop players and draft well and supplement thru free agency and it seems to work pretty well. Poile has his faults but he has less holes in his skills than most GM's around the league.

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03-16-2010, 01:10 AM
  #42
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....and Cheechoo the old "look at what we could have had instead of Legwand".......oops, is he on VH1's where is he now yet?

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03-16-2010, 01:12 AM
  #43
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exactly one round farther. not a bit more. and yet they have spent tons more money and made all thses "aggressive" moves, while we had a fire sale and have spent below the cap midpoint.

so yes, the Sharks situation makes MY point, and refutes dulzhoks...
I'll re-state what Dulzhok has said, they fill their barn on a regular basis, AND they have made it farther than we have. I'll wager they make it deeper than the Preds this year as well. Their "aggressive" moves have taken them one step farther than Poile's conservative approach. In my opinion, the second round is a hell of a lot better than the first round.

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03-16-2010, 01:13 AM
  #44
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again this seems to be the fact you cant get..
they had more money they have more money.. you cant do it with out the money...
and your shrude clueless comet about "welfare check" proves that ..
They have spent much more then us EVERY year along the way .. they had the money to do it we don't yet.. you forget how close this team was to moving only a short while ago?
What was their budget in 1999 (their 8th year in existence)? I don't know the answer to this question.

I do know that Nashville and SJ are similar non-traditional markets. In one, hockey is thriving; the other, hockey is scraping by. They are able to spend more because they are making more.

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03-16-2010, 01:16 AM
  #45
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I'll re-state what Dulzhok has said, they fill their barn on a regular basis, AND they have made it farther than we have. I'll wager they make it deeper than the Preds this year as well. Their "aggressive" moves have taken them one step farther than Poile's conservative approach. In my opinion, the second round is a hell of a lot better than the first round.
they are also spending 56 mill...
allot more then us just think we could add
Patrick Marleau and Ryane Clowe for that money.. take them away from the sharks and lets see how much better they are
again THEY HAVE THE MONEY...

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03-16-2010, 01:17 AM
  #46
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I'll re-state what Dulzhok has said, they fill their barn on a regular basis, AND they have made it farther than we have. I'll wager they make it deeper than the Preds this year as well. Their "aggressive" moves have taken them one step farther than Poile's conservative approach. In my opinion, the second round is a hell of a lot better than the first round.
no, the aggressive moves havent done squat. they were a playoff team BEFORE they got Thornton, and they are still only that, a playoff team, not an Cup winner.

you dont get it, they fill their barn because they are CONSISTENTLY COMPETITIVE just like the Preds are striving to be. they obviously dont fill their barn because of deep playoff runs because they have never made one.

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03-16-2010, 01:18 AM
  #47
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First of all there has been NHL hockey in California for YEARS and they've even had GRETZKY play there. Oh and what is the market size compared to Nashville again???? Holy eff people, try comparing apples to apples.....



Edit: You do know that this is the second go around for the NHL in the bay area, right? There was a franchise in Oakland for 10 years that were replaced by the Sharks 14 years after they were relocated to Cleveland so it's not like NHL hockey was COMPLETELY new in the area......


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03-16-2010, 01:19 AM
  #48
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I'll re-state what Dulzhok has said, they fill their barn on a regular basis, AND they have made it farther than we have. I'll wager they make it deeper than the Preds this year as well. Their "aggressive" moves have taken them one step farther than Poile's conservative approach. In my opinion, the second round is a hell of a lot better than the first round.
How do they sell their barn out? With individual ticket sales or corporate sales? Most teams in the NHL rely on corporate ticket sales to fill over half the arena. SJ has one of the biggest booming cities in the country with computers and chip development. They have the cash flow to entertain their staff and clients. They also have no other pro sports in their city. They never have. Nashville is in a different market. It's football and NASCAR country here and it's not the big sell yet but the problem wasn't that, it was Leipold. He ticked off many businesses in the community and it hurt sales, corporate ticket sales. We have the biggest individual ticket sales in the entire NHL. When we finally get the corporate boys on board, the team will be fine. The new owners have had a lot of obstacles to climb in repairing clients that were lost due to Leipold. The arena just got new naming rights from Bridgestone. Ford has just come on board. Action Nissan has taken a bigger role. Vanderbilt is now involved as well. Owners and GM's just don't wake up one day and have everything just thrown together. It takes time to build anything worthwhile. The owners are doing their part, Poile has been doing his, with the budget he was given and the fans will come in time.

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03-16-2010, 01:43 AM
  #49
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I would like to get out of the first round of the playoffs and have been pretty vocal about getting rid of Trotz and staff as they have failed at this time of year. This year, I just have a different feeling about this team. Every time we have looked like we were going to fold or fall apart, we come back and win a game. It's a testament to the coaches and players in that locker room to keep it together and never lose faith in one another. While it will be a tough road to get out of the first round this year if we face either SJ or Chicago, I say bring em on. One thing for sure, this team will not go down without a fight and I truly believe we have the right chemistry and make up to get it done this year and advance past the first round.

You have your beliefs and opinions in Poile and that's fine. Shoot em out there and let's discuss. I just have a different perspective on things. I have seen some of my favorite teams over the years throw big dollars at players but to no avail and then they decide, let's develop players and draft well and supplement thru free agency and it seems to work pretty well. Poile has his faults but he has less holes in his skills than most GM's around the league.
I am a pretty big Trotz supporter. Consistently, he takes what he's given, and makes the most of it. Even in 06-07 when we had such a great year, he did it mostly with cast-offs. Buffalo didn't quality Dumont b/c they didn't think he was worth it (at 2 million!). Kariya had a horrible year in Colorado, and has been pretty bad for STL. He did well under Trotz. Sullivan was cast-off a bad Chicago team. It was certainly the most talent Trotz ever had to work with, but I don't think we were loaded with top-end talent.

I don't think Poile is a bad GM. I think his "patience" does well to build a strong foundation. But, too get to next level? I think his complacency won't get us there. Just my opinion. Obviously, nothing will be solved by in this thread.

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03-16-2010, 01:46 AM
  #50
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my last thought before bed is what you are calling "complacency" most people would call "consistency" or "steadfastness"

complacent implies that he has no desire to be better than right now. I dont think that is true at all. I think he has a plan and is sticking to it, knowing it will take time to come to fruition

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