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Ryan Kesler's Trade Value

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Old
03-16-2010, 02:15 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Tarot Sport View Post

Second of all, who is this mythical 4.5 mil UFA forward? Either way, I believe UFA signings are and will continue to be one of the worst ways to build a team. Contrarily, a player like Kesler, who has been developed through the Vancouver system, is irreplaceable.
I'm wondering this myself, every year we talk about how we're going to sign so and so to replace a player on our roster, yet nothing of substance really materializes, as everyone who is actually worth bringing in is either massively overpaid in terms of either money or term.

I think Kesler would be someone we would miss a lot more than we even realize, he does a ton of things on the ice that a lot of fans might miss if they didn't consistently watch games.

Weber would be epic though, but I don't see us getting him for Kesler alone, which means more assets and more things we need to replace. I actually like the makeup of our team, but it'd be nice if Gillis could find a gem in the draft, defenseman wise.

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Old
03-16-2010, 02:20 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by skipole View Post


There will be second-tier UFA's available in the offseason. None will come anywhere close to replacing Ryan Kesler, but $4.5 million is enough to land a temporary second-line center. As I said, the goal is to provide some secondary scoring while current prospects (namely Hodgson) develop. It's a trade-off we'd have to make in order to acquire a young franchise defenseman.

For the hell of it, a few names that might cost $5 mil or less that could serve as a 2nd line center for 1 or 2 seasons: O. Jokinen, Demitra, S. Koivu, Kariya, Lombardi.
Kesler and Hamhuis/Volchenkov >>>> Weber and Jokinen/Demitra/Koivu/Kariya/Lombardi

It's not even close. None of those guys can do half of what Kesler does out on the ice, and I literally mean it. At least Hamhuis or Volchenkov are capable of being our anchor on defense. Even if they aren't PP quarterbacks, their "D" is just as good as Weber's, and we have Edler, Salo and Ehrhoff to run the PP.

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Old
03-16-2010, 02:45 AM
  #53
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Gillis does play money ball... It makes sense for him to trade Kesler if he can't fit into our cap situation properly. Kesler could honestly turn out to be like Kessel this off-season. He's said he wants to play here, pay cut blah blah... but with pressure from his agent and being realistic. He can easily earn 5M+ longterm elsewhere in the league.

If Gillis did ever trade Kesler, it would be for top end picks/prospects.

Kessel raked in two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder... This years pick is a lottery pick as well. LOL.

Kessel also signed 5yr 27M deal. Kesler is worth more than Kessel IMO. We'll see... this contract will be interesting this summer.

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03-16-2010, 02:55 AM
  #54
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Too be honest, is anyone doubting Kesler will be back next year? Close this thread

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03-16-2010, 04:02 AM
  #55
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I have a hard time believing that if we were to trade Kesler that we'd receive a player of equivalent value in return, usually teams will offer up packages that are quantity for quality e.g. Luongo, Heatley, Thorton and Phaneuf deals off the top of my head.

No chance we get a blue chip defender unless one of them is caught possessing illegal video tapes or something messed up and they need a change of scenery. Planning for a trade request scenario with a Weber or Green type asset is wishful thinking as well.

BTW Kesler is my favorite player so obviously do not want.. trade.

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03-16-2010, 04:11 AM
  #56
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As stated, this team is in serious need of a bona fide "franchise" defenceman.

However, I think all the kesler brings to the team is more than a Weber could help. I seriously doubt Raymond or sammy is ANYwhere near as effective without kesler there.

And you can not expect hodgson just to jump right into the 2nd line centre role..what happens if something similar happens like last year? We've been complaining about the lack of a third line centre and trading Kesler could mean a Wellwood type would be centering the second line.

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03-16-2010, 04:25 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
How did not signing Mitchell get dragged into this thread? If we had Mitchell, our defense would be a whole lot better - and when he comes back, it will be. IMO trading Kesler for a top tier d-man combined with losing Willie, will only make us worse. Our defense with Bieksa, Ehrhoff, Willie, Edler is a pretty good core group. If we needed one more, we ought to look at free agency.
Willie is great, and I hope he returns, but his health is a question mark at the moment. If we acquire a top-tier defenseman, I don't see why we would be re-signing Willie... not unless Bieksa is shipped out of town. Willie would just be redundant.

If Kesler stays, then I think you have to re-sign Mitchell, assuming he can get healthy.

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Originally Posted by Nine to Five View Post
And you can not expect hodgson just to jump right into the 2nd line centre role..what happens if something similar happens like last year? We've been complaining about the lack of a third line centre and trading Kesler could mean a Wellwood type would be centering the second line.
Again, you sign a UFA with the money saved from Kesler/Willie, and bridge the gap until prospects are able to fill the roster spot. That's the theory, anyway.

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03-16-2010, 04:31 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Outraged666 View Post
Too be honest, is anyone doubting Kesler will be back next year? Close this thread
Agreed. I would be severely disappointed if the team didn't ensure Kesler is here for the next several years. Kesler and Management should be able to figure out a reasonable contract.

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03-16-2010, 04:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
Kesler and Hamhuis/Volchenkov >>>> Weber and Jokinen/Demitra/Koivu/Kariya/Lombardi

It's not even close. None of those guys can do half of what Kesler does out on the ice, and I literally mean it. At least Hamhuis or Volchenkov are capable of being our anchor on defense. Even if they aren't PP quarterbacks, their "D" is just as good as Weber's, and we have Edler, Salo and Ehrhoff to run the PP.
At issue here is a fundamental disagreement regarding the importance of a franchise defenseman.

The Canucks have had a defense built with the "spread it around" mindset for years: Salo, Ohlund, Mitchell, Bieksa, etc. The goal was always to have a bunch of 3-4$ mil guys to round out the top four, rather than one or two elite guys and some depth guys to compliment them. It hasn't worked, to be honest. The defense has been a disappointment every single season (partially due to injury, I concede). It certainly wasn't a complete failure, but it's not the mold that other teams are using to win Stanley Cups, either.

In my eyes, a franchise defenseman is this organization's greatest need moving forward, especially now that the first line, secondary scoring, and goaltending issues have been addressed (for the most part). Sure, Kesler is an absolutely massive loss, but you gain the one piece that's been missing.

I don't want to trade Kesler at all. I am simply suggesting that he is the one asset we have that will generate big return in a trade. We have nothing else that could bring back a franchise defenseman. Kesler, in the right deal, could do just that. Which is why I made the thread.

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03-16-2010, 11:50 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipole View Post
At issue here is a fundamental disagreement regarding the importance of a franchise defenseman.

The Canucks have had a defense built with the "spread it around" mindset for years: Salo, Ohlund, Mitchell, Bieksa, etc. The goal was always to have a bunch of 3-4$ mil guys to round out the top four, rather than one or two elite guys and some depth guys to compliment them. It hasn't worked, to be honest. The defense has been a disappointment every single season (partially due to injury, I concede). It certainly wasn't a complete failure, but it's not the mold that other teams are using to win Stanley Cups, either.
Carolina and TB won cups without an elite franchise d-man on the roster. You could argue that Pittsburgh's win last year was done without an elite "franchise" d-man. People will point to Gonchar, but IMO, he played more of a PP specialist role than that of a 25min-30min/night "paly in all situations" franchise d-man.

Carolina and TB both won cups (Pittsburgh too IMO) because they had a solid one two punch down the middle, lots of secondary scoring, played a tight team game and elite goaltending; if Vancouver is to win a cup in the next five years, this is likely how it will happen (IMO)

Quote:
In my eyes, a franchise defenseman is this organization's greatest need moving forward, especially now that the first line, secondary scoring, and goaltending issues have been addressed (for the most part). Sure, Kesler is an absolutely massive loss, but you gain the one piece that's been missing.
A franchise d-man would be nice, but not at the expense of an emerging franchise centre....who, IMO, are just as valuable.

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Old
03-16-2010, 12:35 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipole View Post
3) Erik Johnson, STL: Potentially a future franchise defensemen and Norris candidate with great size and offensive instincts. It seems very unlikely he'll be moved, but the Blues do have Pietrangelo and a few other solid defensive prospects approaching NHL readiness. Plus he has been mildly disappointing this year.

Proposal: Kesler & a 2010 3rd round pick in exchange for Erik Johnson.
Well, I doubt St. Louis would trade EJ.
However, if Kesler was asking the moon, and Gillis lost his mind, perhaps we could be enticed by a tasty offer.

How about:
Petrangelo, Eller
for
Kesler, Schneider (both RFA's)

See, I would never want to lose Kesler, but would have to think about adding a potential number 1 D-man.

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03-16-2010, 01:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by skipole View Post
2) Tyler Myers, BUF: Extremely unlikely to be moved. Out of the question.
this just got me to thinking: what if, at the draft last year, gillis says to himself, "hey, my d-corp relies way too much on older and/or injury-prone players. with sedin and kesler, maybe i can flip hodgson for a top-flight young d-man."

now, if he had gone to LA to inquire about doughty, the door would have been slammed in his face. if he had inquired about, say, jack johnson, lombardi would have grabbed his hand and shaken it before he even finishes the sentence. so there's your range.

but what if he had gone to buffalo for myers? at that point, he probably could have gotten myers and a swap of first round picks for coho, and i don't see how regier passes this up given how high hodgson was before his pre-season injury. in the long run, hodgson may have more value, but wouldn't this have made us frontrunners for the cup this year? a guy can dream.

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Old
03-16-2010, 01:35 PM
  #63
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No. We finally draft a number one and a number two center... develop them into 90 + and 70+ point players... we are NOT trading them NOW.
This.

Short of him demanding too much money, and we can trade him for Weber, he shouldn't be going anywhere. He is too much of a difference-maker these days.

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Old
03-16-2010, 01:42 PM
  #64
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If we could get Erik Johnson for Ryan Kesler, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't want to lose Kesler, but EJ will very soon grow into a Norris trophy candidate.

If you move a guy like Ryan Kesler, you sure as hell better have a replacement for him. And not just his points, but his defensive awareness, and his heart. Could Hodgson fill in for Kesler in terms of points and heart? Probably...but will he be able to do it within the next 2-3 years, let alone next season? Doubtful.

The only FA who would make for a sufficient replacement for Kesler up front would be Patrick Marleau. However, he's been playing the wing, so I don't know how well he would do transitioning back to center. As well, how do you afford both Marleau and EJ?

There's a couple solid RFA centers, but looking at how much we'd have to overpay to sign any of them we likely couldn't afford it.

Kesler is probably best being kept...re-signed for $4.5M if we have to.

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Old
03-16-2010, 01:42 PM
  #65
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Every time the topic of "#1 Defense Man" comes up I unfortunately get more sad at the loss of LB.

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03-16-2010, 01:50 PM
  #66
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I know doughty is ridiculously valuable to the kings... But would Lombardi seriously be able to turn down an offer of Kesler, Edler and a 1st? Nobody is completely untouchable but would that be enough of an overpayment to even tempt him?

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03-16-2010, 01:57 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
I know doughty is ridiculously valuable to the kings... But would Lombardi seriously be able to turn down an offer of Kesler, Edler and a 1st? Nobody is completely untouchable but would that be enough of an overpayment to even tempt him?
Personally I would turn that down from LAs perspective. But my opinion of Doughty is that he will be the best defenseman in the NHL perhaps as soon as next season; and will be for a long time.

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03-16-2010, 02:03 PM
  #68
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Personally I would turn that down from LAs perspective. But my opinion of Doughty is that he will be the best defenseman in the NHL perhaps as soon as next season; and will be for a long time.
I think the exact same of doughty. I'd be willing to trade pretty much anything short of the sedins or luongo in a heartbeat if it meant we got Doughty back. Hell, add in another first into that deal. It will be a mid 20s pick if we had Sedins, Louie and Doughty.

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03-16-2010, 02:06 PM
  #69
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Personally I want Kesler to live and dye as a Canuck..

Although that probably wont happen..

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03-16-2010, 02:09 PM
  #70
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If we could get Erik Johnson for Ryan Kesler, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't want to lose Kesler, but EJ will very soon grow into a Norris trophy candidate.

If you move a guy like Ryan Kesler, you sure as hell better have a replacement for him. And not just his points, but his defensive awareness, and his heart. Could Hodgson fill in for Kesler in terms of points and heart? Probably...but will he be able to do it within the next 2-3 years, let alone next season? Doubtful.

The only FA who would make for a sufficient replacement for Kesler up front would be Patrick Marleau. However, he's been playing the wing, so I don't know how well he would do transitioning back to center. As well, how do you afford both Marleau and EJ?

There's a couple solid RFA centers, but looking at how much we'd have to overpay to sign any of them we likely couldn't afford it.

Kesler is probably best being kept...re-signed for $4.5M if we have to.
Yeah, if EJ was available I'd do it and sign Plekanec in Kesler's spot for now. But frankly the defensemen who will be available aren't good enough to justify trading Kesler, he won't fetch a franchise D man like Weber or Johnson (Eric) or Bogosian or Doughty. He gets us Petriangelo, or Jack Johnson, or Vlasic, or Letang or any of those plus a pick or forward prospect, but there are only a handful of franchise defensemen who would have more value to the Canucks than Kesler, and those guys have more value to their respective teams than Kesler would.

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03-16-2010, 02:44 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Pauser View Post
If we could get Erik Johnson for Ryan Kesler, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't want to lose Kesler, but EJ will very soon grow into a Norris trophy candidate.

If you move a guy like Ryan Kesler, you sure as hell better have a replacement for him. And not just his points, but his defensive awareness, and his heart. Could Hodgson fill in for Kesler in terms of points and heart? Probably...but will he be able to do it within the next 2-3 years, let alone next season? Doubtful.

The only FA who would make for a sufficient replacement for Kesler up front would be Patrick Marleau. However, he's been playing the wing, so I don't know how well he would do transitioning back to center. As well, how do you afford both Marleau and EJ?

There's a couple solid RFA centers, but looking at how much we'd have to overpay to sign any of them we likely couldn't afford it.

Kesler is probably best being kept...re-signed for $4.5M if we have to.
That's a pretty bold statement to make about a guy who rarely kills penalties, doesn’t block a lot of shots, doesn’t play much of a physical game and is producing points at roughly the same pace as Edler did in his 2nd NHL season.

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Old
03-16-2010, 03:13 PM
  #72
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You have a core of Sedins,Burr,Sammy,edler,Ehrhoff,Bieksa,Salo,Bieksa ,Luongo and room to resign kesler and raymond....and not leave this team handcuffed.

add in Hodgson,Grabner--decent chance to make the team next year
plus Shirokov,Schreoder,and in DEFENCE Connaugton,Sauve,Oberg,coming up and the young guys right now will be another year older and more experinced.

this is a team you dont need to make drastic changes.They are a solid team and a cap savy team right now.This team has one of the best top two lines in hockey right now..

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Old
03-16-2010, 07:20 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetcoastwhale View Post
Well, I doubt St. Louis would trade EJ.
However, if Kesler was asking the moon, and Gillis lost his mind, perhaps we could be enticed by a tasty offer.

How about:
Petrangelo, Eller
for
Kesler, Schneider (both RFA's)

See, I would never want to lose Kesler, but would have to think about adding a potential number 1 D-man.
The only way the Canucks trade Kesler to the Blues is if Erik Johnson is coming back.The Canucks are not going to trade a 70+ point Selke candidate for a unproven NHL player!I'd do Hodgson+Schneider for Pieterangalo+pick in a heart beat but I doubt the Blues would.

Like I said in my previous post I'd move Kesler for a proven NHL defenceman who has franchise defenceman potential,like Shea Weber or Erik Johnson.Weber makes the most sense IMO he's a BC boy,and he's proven he's a top 10 defenceman in the NHL.

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03-16-2010, 09:11 PM
  #74
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Kesler is too hard to replace. Worth more than Weber would be to our team.

Look at what losing Cammalleri for Bouwmeester did for Calgary. You cannot assume you will replace that production with someone else, like OJ (lol).

We are now near the top of the goals for, and have respectable goals against. How much better can our D realistically get by losing SelKesler and adding Weber, or other 'franchise' D-man? Its a wash Id say.

Tweak, dont tear it down. Id wait for a RFA/UFA/Cap dump deal. Nashville still might be that team but not right now.

Kesler is a franchise player. You build around guys like him.

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