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David Poile, from good to stagnant (long)

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Old
03-16-2010, 01:29 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Singleton View Post
Poile should have been able to sweeten the pot without Colin Wilson. I would be surprised if the only player Boston was interested in was Colin Wilson when they got nothing like that from Toronto.

I didn't say that re-signing Legwand and Erat was a mistake (assuming you were addressing me). I actually though Legwand's contract was reasonable if he was going to continue to play the offensive role he had that season going forward. Poile's mistake was to not provide someone to play Legwand's defensive role so that Trotz felt comfortable enough to play Legwand in an offensive role.

Again with Erat, I said the length and amount of the contract was the mistake- not the fact that the Predators re-signed him. Poile made it doubly hard on himself by erring on both sides of that equation.

Let's be realistic here. I'm glad Erat is still with the Predators, but he's not on a level skill-wise as to be especially difficult to replace even not remembering who might have been available (without going and doing some researching) from a trade or free agen perspective. There are many gifted offensive players in the league and he could be replaced.
I guess I just have a problem with criticizing a GM for a trade not made, since we dont know what it was that it would have taken to make the deal happen. presumably the reason we would have to give players and Toronto only picks is chairelli(sp?) assumed toronto would suck and knew a pick from the leafs would likely be top 5 whereas if we got kessel our first rounder was likely to be mid to late teens

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03-16-2010, 01:36 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Singleton View Post
It was obvious that David Poile was counting greatly on adding Phil Kessel (or someone like Kessel) early on in the offseason. This is his biggest error lately. Kessel's salary is not that onerous and the Predators were reportedly only short by $500,000. The breathing room Kessel would have provided on the ice in terms of being able to compensate for errors that found the back of the net would have been significant. Given the way that Hornqvist and Wilson are contributing now, this team would have been especially potent with Kessel along for the ride (again using that wonderful hindsight we have). I believe this to be the third biggest error in David Poile's tenure to date. However, I also believe that this could potentially move to the top and also provides the biggest ammunition to those people who believe that Poile is unwilling to take a calculated risk to improve a team unless forced into a reactive situation.
One issue that is being overlooked here is that Kessel didn't want to sign in Nashville and that's the No. 1 reason the trade didn't go through. Kessel was dead-set on going to Toronto when the two options were presented and knew that whatever Poile offered in terms of a contract, Burke would exceed.

Therefore, Poile was never truly in control of that situation and did Nashville a favor by not blowing the budget by exceeding what he was willing to offer Kessel in the first place and essentially bidding against himself ultimately...those types of contracts rarely work out for the team handing them out and if you look at how Toronto has responded, you have to wonder if not giving up a top 3 pick wouldn't have been better in the long-term...

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03-16-2010, 01:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
One issue that is being overlooked here is that Kessel didn't want to sign in Nashville and that's the No. 1 reason the trade didn't go through. Kessel was dead-set on going to Toronto when the two options were presented and knew that whatever Poile offered in terms of a contract, Burke would exceed.

Therefore, Poile was never truly in control of that situation and did Nashville a favor by not blowing the budget by exceeding what he was willing to offer Kessel in the first place and essentially bidding against himself ultimately...those types of contracts rarely work out for the team handing them out and if you look at how Toronto has responded, you have to wonder if not giving up a top 3 pick wouldn't have been better in the long-term...
I didn't mean to overlook that Seth- certainly a key point.

To further clarify, Poile needs to pull off his "Phil Kessel" (whomever that may be) trade or signing. He put a lot of eggs into the Kessel basket. He wanted this trade badly and was ready to make that calculated risk. At some point, he must be able to get to the altar as opposed to always being the groomsman (to paraphrase) those few times he ventures out on the "calculated risk limb".

Even the perception of being stagnant is not good in the long term. Players want to know that you will do everything in your power to continually improve the team to reach that next level.

Just to reiterate- I think Poile has done a great job to this point. The next couple of years, with the most significant re-signing opportunities this club has likely ever seen coming up, represents a potential crossroads for this club and David Poile. What Nashville does with Shea Weber and Ryan Suter will speak volumes around the league.

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Old
03-16-2010, 04:11 PM
  #79
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I had intended on coming in here to explain the differences between the cities of San Jose and Nashville, but I see others have beaten me to it. I guess that's what I get for being too lazy to sign in with my phone during lunch break.

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03-16-2010, 05:35 PM
  #80
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Whatever you feel about the OP's premise, it has brought about some good discussion and certainly made me think critically about DP's term as GM.

I will be the first to admit feeling frustration in the short term plenty of years when nothing has happened at trade deadline. There is a definite tortoise perception of the franchise out there, not to expect dramatic or flashy moves from this regime. Some of that stems from the inherent caution of David's makeup and experience, some of it is the franchise's circumstance (as adequately documented above). But there is this master framework/plan, and DP has tried very hard to adhere to it with very good results for the most part. I think there are advantages to an ownership group that lets smart hockey people run the hockey side and does not try to meddle with it. We've all seen what can happen when ownership takes too much interest in dictating to the sports pros and throws things out of whack (Hello, Redskins?). Look at the recovery since the Liarpold dismantling-- I think that is really remarkable work by David and staff on a shoestring with not much in the way of certainty to back them up.

As mentioned before, the risks here in this market are much greater because of a lower season ticket base. Think about it-- dependence on walk on sales means you need to be in contention or your demand suffers. The product on the ice not only has to be good but you have to be in the race. So I think this has to factor in how much danger DP can assume in taking on player/deal/contract.

Overall, DP is still good for this franchise, but I can foresee a time soon when it could mature beyond him. I think we have to achieve some more franchise milestones before those points are reached, like winning some playoff rounds, etc.

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03-16-2010, 09:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I had intended on coming in here to explain the differences between the cities of San Jose and Nashville, but I see others have beaten me to it. I guess that's what I get for being too lazy to sign in with my phone during lunch break.
People will say SJ market is 5 million or whatever, but that's pretty misleading. I'm sure they pull some people from San Fran, but I doubt most are willing to make the 1hr+ commute on a regular basis. If they are going to include San Francisco in their population number, we might as well include Bowling Green. SJ is less than a million. Someone will have to do the research, but I think most of their in-house fan base is from the SJ area.

But it doesn't really matter. We won't find a perfect comparison. SJ started from scratch and made it to the 2nd round time 4 times in the first 10 years, and I don't think population had much to do with. I only brought it because someone asked for an expansion team who's done better.

My main point is to look at the results. I think DP had great results in the first 5 years, and made the right bold moves (Dunham/Vokoun/Sullvain) to get us over the playoff hump. The next 2, he made some moves to make us playoff competitive (Kariya, Forsberg, Witt, etc), but the end result was a 1st rd exits. And then, we have the last year 3 years, where overall, he's been very complacent and has had his share of questionable moves.

Pittsburgh is another one that's not a good comparison, but I admire the BOLD moves Shero made. Yes, having Crosby and Malkin is a huge help, but he's made a lot of decisions that put the team over the top. He traded a bunch of decent players for Hossa, a move that sent the Pens to the finals. The next year, he canned the coach that to them the SC finals (that takes b****), combined with a bunch of other changes (trading away roster players). And, they won the cup.

I can't ever see Poile being that bold. In the past when he's tried to be bold to make a playoff competitive team, it hasn't worked out (Forsberg, Witt, Jason Allison trade in Washington). He seems to have a track record of making a good team, but lacking the ability to put them over the top.

I think to have a true playoff contender, you have to make some bold decisions. I guess I'm doubtful of Poile's ability to make the right "playoff competitive" decisions.


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Old
03-16-2010, 10:28 PM
  #82
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If you looked at the question about the expansion teams, of the 4 teams that came into the league around the same time, Nashville, Atlanta, Minnesota and Columbus, how have they faired against one another. You can't compare a team that has been in the league since the early 90's versus a team that came into existence almost 10 years later. Compare San Jose to Florida if you like. Compare the first 10 years of San Jose's existence to our first 10 years but do not compare San Jose now with us, it's not the same thing.

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03-17-2010, 12:00 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Compare the first 10 years of San Jose's existence to our first 10 years.
That's what I did brother. SJ made the 2nd rd of the playoffs 4 times in their first 10 years of existence.

Sure, we've fared better than CBJ-- though we came in 2 years earlier. It makes me feel slightly better, but I aspire to better than the worst of the worst.

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03-17-2010, 01:31 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
People will say SJ market is 5 million or whatever, but that's pretty misleading. I'm sure they pull some people from San Fran, but I doubt most are willing to make the 1hr+ commute on a regular basis. If they are going to include San Francisco in their population number, we might as well include Bowling Green. SJ is less than a million. Someone will have to do the research, but I think most of their in-house fan base is from the SJ area.

But it doesn't really matter. We won't find a perfect comparison. SJ started from scratch and made it to the 2nd round time 4 times in the first 10 years, and I don't think population had much to do with. I only brought it because someone asked for an expansion team who's done better.

My main point is to look at the results. I think DP had great results in the first 5 years, and made the right bold moves (Dunham/Vokoun/Sullvain) to get us over the playoff hump. The next 2, he made some moves to make us playoff competitive (Kariya, Forsberg, Witt, etc), but the end result was a 1st rd exits. And then, we have the last year 3 years, where overall, he's been very complacent and has had his share of questionable moves.

Pittsburgh is another one that's not a good comparison, but I admire the BOLD moves Shero made. Yes, having Crosby and Malkin is a huge help, but he's made a lot of decisions that put the team over the top. He traded a bunch of decent players for Hossa, a move that sent the Pens to the finals. The next year, he canned the coach that to them the SC finals (that takes b****), combined with a bunch of other changes (trading away roster players). And, they won the cup.

I can't ever see Poile being that bold. In the past when he's tried to be bold to make a playoff competitive team, it hasn't worked out (Forsberg, Witt, Jason Allison trade in Washington). He seems to have a track record of making a good team, but lacking the ability to put them over the top.

I think to have a true playoff contender, you have to make some bold decisions. I guess I'm doubtful of Poile's ability to make the right "playoff competitive" decisions.

San Jose is the 10th largest city in the country(over 1 mil.). And they do draw from the entire 6.5 mil. population in the metro area. San Francisco and Oakland are both less than 50 miles and also accessable by train for those that don't want to make the drive. But an hour drive in the Bay Area is nothing. People do that going to Home Depot on Sat. So no they are not a good comparison for Nashville. Closest I could come up with was Columbus. Maybe Phoenix but they didn't start a new franchise.

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Old
03-17-2010, 01:43 AM
  #85
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not to mention the sharks ARE NOT the first NHL team in the Bay area. Not to mention the fact that Gretzky was playing just down the road in LA for a few years....

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03-17-2010, 02:21 AM
  #86
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I didn't read all of this thread, but I really think you can look at the one "aggressive" move that Poile has made. Or at least the move that would make a splash like the OP seems to want. The Forsberg trade is as far as you need to look.

We give up a 1st (which admittedly we got back, but it's not like that was part of the original plan), a 3rd, easily our best defensive prospect at the time in Parent, and Upshall. Upshall is performing fairly well nowadays for Phoenix, granted he clearly wasn't working in Nashville's system (much like Peverley).

What'd we get in return? We get Forsberg, who created a HUGE increase in attendance that year, and consequently earned this franchise some serious money. But basically we get him for 17 regular season games where he scores 2 goals and 5 playoff games as we get bonked early by the Sharks. So we get a 1/4's worth of a season from one player while, at the time we were giving away 4 players. All for another first round exit.

This to me is proof enough that the so-called "aggressive" move is not the one that always works. I'd much rather, with the cash-strapped situation that we as a franchise are in, take the "slow and steady wins the race" approach. I'm more than content to be the tortoise of the NHL if we make the playoffs consistently for the next 5-10 years while making a run in only a few of those seasons. Let's face it, we just don't have the money to compete with the Chicagos (who will be in a world of hurt next year because of their own "aggressive" moves) and Washingtons of the league.

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03-17-2010, 02:34 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
People will say SJ market is 5 million or whatever, but that's pretty misleading. I'm sure they pull some people from San Fran, but I doubt most are willing to make the 1hr+ commute on a regular basis. If they are going to include San Francisco in their population number, we might as well include Bowling Green. SJ is less than a million. Someone will have to do the research, but I think most of their in-house fan base is from the SJ area.

But it doesn't really matter. We won't find a perfect comparison. SJ started from scratch and made it to the 2nd round time 4 times in the first 10 years, and I don't think population had much to do with. I only brought it because someone asked for an expansion team who's done better.

My main point is to look at the results. I think DP had great results in the first 5 years, and made the right bold moves (Dunham/Vokoun/Sullvain) to get us over the playoff hump. The next 2, he made some moves to make us playoff competitive (Kariya, Forsberg, Witt, etc), but the end result was a 1st rd exits. And then, we have the last year 3 years, where overall, he's been very complacent and has had his share of questionable moves.

Pittsburgh is another one that's not a good comparison, but I admire the BOLD moves Shero made. Yes, having Crosby and Malkin is a huge help, but he's made a lot of decisions that put the team over the top. He traded a bunch of decent players for Hossa, a move that sent the Pens to the finals. The next year, he canned the coach that to them the SC finals (that takes b****), combined with a bunch of other changes (trading away roster players). And, they won the cup.

I can't ever see Poile being that bold. In the past when he's tried to be bold to make a playoff competitive team, it hasn't worked out (Forsberg, Witt, Jason Allison trade in Washington). He seems to have a track record of making a good team, but lacking the ability to put them over the top.

I think to have a true playoff contender, you have to make some bold decisions. I guess I'm doubtful of Poile's ability to make the right "playoff competitive" decisions.
Pittsburgh has $$$$. Nashville does not. It's that simple. Canning the coach is a lot easier when you have a pad of cash that you can fall back on.

And if you don't think that San Jose draws on the SF market you're kidding yourself. I have a family member that used to live in North Bay and lives in downtown SF now who goes to multiple Sharks games a year, and he's not really much of a hockey fan, but he follows the Sharks loosely.

Face it, the last three years Poile has HAD to be complacent.

2007 offseason - He has to get rid of Timonen, Hartnell, and Vokoun. He has ABSOLUTELY NO idea what the hell is going to happen with the sale of the team. His hands are completely tied this offseason. Completely

2008 offseason - First offseason under the new ownership. Trying to work out the budget, and with this ownership's goal being to break even, he knows that he can't go out there and get some ridiculous free agent.

2009 offseason - Another financial fiasco happens in June with Boots' crap. Once again, what kind of money is out there? Plus not the greatest free agent class IIRC.

So true, perhaps overall the team's performance has declined, but so has the cash availability. Plain and simple. For most of our lifespan as a franchise from here on out we will more than likely be making the playoffs in the 5-8 spot.

At least we aren't a team like say the Florida Marlins in MLB who sure they make the World Series and win it every once in awhile, but the next year they have to get rid of everyone because they can't afford it and they suck royally for 5-6 years while they grow new talent. Sure on the surface it'd be great to win a championship every few years, but I'm not sure I could handle/keep my interest through 5 years of abysmal hockey in between.

PS I think it's clear with as little as I usually post that I'm procrastinating from studying for finals, and quite well I might add.

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Old
03-17-2010, 03:01 AM
  #88
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If Poile could guarantee that this team could make it to the conference finals every 6-7 years and suck completely for the middle 3-4 years in-between, which would be a fantastic result that any GM would say "where do I sign", Poile would have to be the one GM to not sign because by the end of the 3 or 4 years of sucking wind the attendance would drop so far that the team would be headed for greener pastures instead of him having a few more years to show that his gambles indeed would pay off in another conference final.

That's probably why Poile slightly overpaid and made his bed with Erat and Legwand. Those are both solid Predator hockey guys. He knew with them in the fold and his massive defensive prospect base he'd at least have an average team.

Poile is terrified of a bad slump. This franchise cannot do it. And after missing the playoffs one year, two years is a bad slump by Poile standards, when your entire m.o. has been to play safe enough to have a good shot at the playoffs. I believe that's why he rolled the dice by NOT moving our assets at the trade deadline. He knows we need to make the playoffs. Sure he wants to make us strong enough to get to round two, which maybe Grebs and Boyd will help do, but first and foremost he had to get us to the playoffs.

Maybe we will make the playoffs, maybe we won't, but I am ecstatic to have Poile as our GM right now. Even though I also called him Stand-Pat Poile in the past with some others. But the fact is he did a great job overcoming a lot of adversity with the ownership, and guys he picked off the gutpile are helping us out. And his strengthening us for this year by NOT moving assets, plus picking up two useful players for picks, is as risky as he could realistically be, and I was glad to see it. Hopefully now the players will get it done. I think they will. Making the playoffs will send us into the offseason in better shape with less adversity. I even think we could advance. We have a good team. Poile rolled the dice this year. It may not look like it but he did. In Nashville you can't roll for the 1 in 6 shot, you have to roll for the 1-2 shot with lower rewards but lower pain of failure.

But none of that means we won't advance in the playoffs now or in the future. I think with just a little stability, which we may have now, and the solid base Poile has built, we could someday advance to a finals or a cup. Why not? I think he and Trotz are capable. It hasn't been a really good environment to build great teams, but they did once build a very solid team, that got injured, and also boned by the refs, and I think they can do it again, with more depth to survive injuries. We'll see. But I finally feel better about the future of hockey in this town. We survived the founding owner messing it all up for a bit.


Last edited by OpenWheel: 03-17-2010 at 03:08 AM.
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Old
03-17-2010, 07:42 AM
  #89
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There is no question that David Poile is not a good asset manager when it comes to the trade market. The Forsberg trade is one of the largest packages given for any player in recent memory and it was for an aging star, who even then, had very real ankle injuries. I didn't mind that trade as much due to Peter Forsberg being my favorite player. WIth that said, the amount we gave up - it is simply incredible. You can go down the list and see assets that have been mismanaged. We rarely trade prospects - they either flounder, make it on to the Predators, or go to other leagues. Where would we be had we traded prospects like Kulyah, Glazachev early on? If we had moved Peverly or Santorelli or guys of their elk before they get waived or appear like busts? Do we hold on to long? Yes. I think we do. Are my examples small - yes. I am simply trying to illustrate the passivity of Poile's decision making. He waits. He holds on. He doesn't take many risks.

In Poile's defense, when you have low finances, you have to minimize risk. You have to hang on to draft picks and prospects. You need cost certainty, and the only way for us to have that is to have a constant influx of talent.

Poile has been an absolutely fabulous drafter the past 5-7 years. His defensive hit or miss rate is just unbelievable. I went over it in the prospects thread, but it must be the best in the NHL. It is simply stunning. When the Nashville Predators draft a defenseman, you can almost write it down that he is going to make the NHL or exceed draft expectations.

So what is the problem?

We need that scorer. We need a little creativity. Watching Peter Mueller go wild for the Avalanche is killing me. Watching Phil Kessel in Toronto is killing me. Watching Wolski in Phoenix is killing me. All three of these young goal-scorers were available. All three could have been acquired using our assets. The Kessel deal - I will give a pass because of the Toronto situation. I am not going to so much for the WOlski/Mueller situation. The simple truth is - if a young scorer was required to make a deal for either, we have the pieces to go out and get really any player in this league. If we need to make a three team trade to get the player we want, then the time to do that is now. It appears that Wilson was our fall-back plan, and it is working out well, so again, take my words as only minor criticism. I felt the trade deadline was one of Poile's best. I ultimately think we will regret not moving Ellis, and I suspect Hamhuis walks/Grebeshekov is traded. With that said, he improved our club without giving up much at all, and both players will be Predators for multiple years if we so choose. Still, with the assets we have, it is pretty incredible how year in and year out, we never use them to our advantage.

Lastly, Trotz's system needs a number 1 goalie. Our goalie fiasco the past couple of years has really hurt us IMO. If we had Vokoun right now, I think we are sitting pretty at 4th/5th in the West. As it stands, we are struggling for consistency. Let us hope that Rinne has finally recaptured his form from last season. Last night was definitely a great start.

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Old
03-17-2010, 09:07 AM
  #90
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There is no question that David Poile is not a good asset manager when it comes to the trade market. The Forsberg trade is one of the largest packages given for any player in recent memory and it was for an aging star, who even then, had very real ankle injuries. I didn't mind that trade as much due to Peter Forsberg being my favorite player. WIth that said, the amount we gave up - it is simply incredible. You can go down the list and see assets that have been mismanaged. We rarely trade prospects - they either flounder, make it on to the Predators, or go to other leagues. Where would we be had we traded prospects like Kulyah, Glazachev early on? If we had moved Peverly or Santorelli or guys of their elk before they get waived or appear like busts? Do we hold on to long? Yes. I think we do. Are my examples small - yes. I am simply trying to illustrate the passivity of Poile's decision making. He waits. He holds on. He doesn't take many risks.

In Poile's defense, when you have low finances, you have to minimize risk. You have to hang on to draft picks and prospects. You need cost certainty, and the only way for us to have that is to have a constant influx of talent.

Poile has been an absolutely fabulous drafter the past 5-7 years. His defensive hit or miss rate is just unbelievable. I went over it in the prospects thread, but it must be the best in the NHL. It is simply stunning. When the Nashville Predators draft a defenseman, you can almost write it down that he is going to make the NHL or exceed draft expectations.

So what is the problem?

We need that scorer. We need a little creativity. Watching Peter Mueller go wild for the Avalanche is killing me. Watching Phil Kessel in Toronto is killing me. Watching Wolski in Phoenix is killing me. All three of these young goal-scorers were available. All three could have been acquired using our assets. The Kessel deal - I will give a pass because of the Toronto situation. I am not going to so much for the WOlski/Mueller situation. The simple truth is - if a young scorer was required to make a deal for either, we have the pieces to go out and get really any player in this league. If we need to make a three team trade to get the player we want, then the time to do that is now. It appears that Wilson was our fall-back plan, and it is working out well, so again, take my words as only minor criticism. I felt the trade deadline was one of Poile's best. I ultimately think we will regret not moving Ellis, and I suspect Hamhuis walks/Grebeshekov is traded. With that said, he improved our club without giving up much at all, and both players will be Predators for multiple years if we so choose. Still, with the assets we have, it is pretty incredible how year in and year out, we never use them to our advantage.

Lastly, Trotz's system needs a number 1 goalie. Our goalie fiasco the past couple of years has really hurt us IMO. If we had Vokoun right now, I think we are sitting pretty at 4th/5th in the West. As it stands, we are struggling for consistency. Let us hope that Rinne has finally recaptured his form from last season. Last night was definitely a great start.

OK, I still dont buy the "trade not made" argument.

You cant assume poile could have got a trade done if he's just wanted to or been more adept. The fact that Kessel, Mueller and Wolski moved does not mean we could have got them. As Slake pointed out, Kessel didnt want to play here, and we cant control that.

Wolski and Mueller were only going to get swapped for assets because both players were from playoff teams.

And IIRC, Polie signed Vokoun to a deal that would have had him here except for the Leipold fiasco.

and the Forsberg trade was a pretty high price but really have we missed Upshall? or Parent? I think the answer to both is, no not really...

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Old
03-17-2010, 09:41 AM
  #91
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David Poile is very good in the draft. He has a system where the more constrictions he has the bettter. The crappier the draft the better. The Finley draft was one of the worst in NHL history and he got Erat and a bunch of role NHL players in a year you were lucky to get ONE NHL player. He's not as great with asset maximization. Part of it is loyalty to vets. Just look at Hamhuis. He's not trading him because he knows the trauma moving a family does. As for Peverley and Jones. They didn't fit the system. Every GM knew that. They didn't make a trade and Poile had to lose them for nothing.

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03-17-2010, 10:04 AM
  #92
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Poile has always been the trade not made guy PredV. You may not buy it, but it is very real. I used those three examples simply to illustrate the point that young scorers were on the market and were available to other teams. I already conceded on Kessel, but I still think the point remains. A more creative, aggressive GM, could have made a trade. If not this year at the deadline, certainly in the off-season or in the years past. Poile, to be blunt, is not that guy. He will never be that guy. I hold no illusions on this issue, it sounds like you still do.

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03-17-2010, 10:26 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
People will say SJ market is 5 million or whatever, but that's pretty misleading. I'm sure they pull some people from San Fran, but I doubt most are willing to make the 1hr+ commute on a regular basis. If they are going to include San Francisco in their population number, we might as well include Bowling Green. SJ is less than a million. Someone will have to do the research, but I think most of their in-house fan base is from the SJ area.
I think part of what makes the comparison a little better is that there's much better public transit options between San Jose and San Francisco than there is between Nashville and Bowling Green. Considering the scale of some of these metro areas, it's probably not all that inconceivable.

That said, one hour drives theoretically aren't supposed to be out of the question for these things anyhow. Cleveland and Cincinnati are ostensibly supposed to be part of the CBJ market, for example (never mind how atrociously poor the marketing has been ), and they're each about an hour away. (Toledo at present is contested territory. As usual. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang View Post
not to mention the sharks ARE NOT the first NHL team in the Bay area. Not to mention the fact that Gretzky was playing just down the road in LA for a few years....
LA is over 350 miles away from the Bay Area. (It's almost the same distance between Nashville and Columbus, amusingly enough.) But your other point stands just fine.

(And yes, I remember that largely because of one memorable idiot who seemed to think that Wayne Gretzky was the only reason "southern" markets survived, and that was his justification for the Bay Area. He didn't take it well when I pointed out how close Nashville is to St. Louis... )

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03-17-2010, 10:59 AM
  #94
triggrman
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Originally Posted by jstreet View Post
this thread is bizarre, Ive been reading people who bash Poile for years and now all of this Poile love-fest?



It seems the analysis is pretty simple. David Poile is an excellent draft manager and a terrible asset trader. Of course no one knows what really happens behind the closed doors of his office.


There is plenty to be thrilled with and upset with here.
This

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03-17-2010, 11:03 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
David Poile is very good in the draft. He has a system where the more constrictions he has the bettter. The crappier the draft the better. The Finley draft was one of the worst in NHL history and he got Erat and a bunch of role NHL players in a year you were lucky to get ONE NHL player. He's not as great with asset maximization. Part of it is loyalty to vets. Just look at Hamhuis. He's not trading him because he knows the trauma moving a family does. As for Peverley and Jones. They didn't fit the system. Every GM knew that. They didn't make a trade and Poile had to lose them for nothing.
Are you kidding me?

Poile didnt move hamhuis because the things we got offered werent good enough to offset the downgrade this years team would have incurred. Same thing with Ellis i am sure. Poile knows that we need to make the playoffs THIS YEAR even if it means we lose hamhuis and Ellis for nothing.

people say he doesnt manage assets well because they perceive a glut of defensemen in our system but guess what? Having two or three young, and therefore cheap, defensemen on the roster every year is Poile master plan... its what allows us to have money to pay goalies and forwards.

I think its ludicrous to give poile crap because he didnt trade our non-succcessful prospects(replying to Enoch here).... heck, im sure every team has plenty of prospects that dont ever make it and in retrospect they would have liked to have dumped, but thats how it works.

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03-17-2010, 11:09 AM
  #96
triggrman
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Let's hold out to see if we re-sign Hamhuis before we comment on trading him.

I think we have hopes to sign him but we'll see. Also, our defense needs him for the playoff run.

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03-17-2010, 11:16 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Poile has always been the trade not made guy PredV. You may not buy it, but it is very real. I used those three examples simply to illustrate the point that young scorers were on the market and were available to other teams. I already conceded on Kessel, but I still think the point remains. A more creative, aggressive GM, could have made a trade. If not this year at the deadline, certainly in the off-season or in the years past. Poile, to be blunt, is not that guy. He will never be that guy. I hold no illusions on this issue, it sounds like you still do.
I dont necessarily WANT poile to be that guy, because more often than not, those bold moves dont work out.

On XM radio the Phoenix GM said they werent going to move Mueller unless they got basically a similar asset in return. So we'd have had to probably trade Wilson or Hornqvist for Meuller. Not going to happen, and wouldnt have solved anything. And I am certain that Colorado wasnt going to trade Wolski for picks or prospects when Mueller was available.

There are times in a franchises histroy when trades would be nice but arent crucial..... during those times you make the deal if it makes sense but you dont get foolish. Then there are times when a team really needs a trade..

Looking back on the history of the franchise, there were really only two times when the team truly NEEDED a trade. One was trying to get over the hump for that first playoff spot. And Poile got Sully for 2 2nd rounders... a steal..

the second was when we looked like we had a legitimate shot at the cup... and he made the deal and got forsberg. didnt pan out, but he still got the deal done

At any other time in the teams history, a well timed trade might have made us slightly better, but there really hasnt been an opportunity to make us a "next level" team, most recently because we have spent the last 2 years recovering from the fire sale.

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03-17-2010, 11:24 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Let's hold out to see if we re-sign Hamhuis before we comment on trading him.

I think we have hopes to sign him but we'll see. Also, our defense needs him for the playoff run.
agree. same thing with Ellis. He's probably gone(but with the new chairman, who knows) but even if he is the draft pick we would have got for him wasnt worth sacrificing the security of having him in case rinne faltered or got hurt

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03-17-2010, 12:05 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Steelhead16 View Post
San Jose is the 10th largest city in the country(over 1 mil.). And they do draw from the entire 6.5 mil. population in the metro area. San Francisco and Oakland are both less than 50 miles and also accessable by train for those that don't want to make the drive. But an hour drive in the Bay Area is nothing. People do that going to Home Depot on Sat. So no they are not a good comparison for Nashville. Closest I could come up with was Columbus. Maybe Phoenix but they didn't start a new franchise.
I'll admit, I can't really speak from the where the bulk of SJ's in-house is coming from. But it really doesn't matter. Only reason I brought it up is b/c some of people clamoring for an example of an expansion team that did better than us in the 1st 10 years.

I think the Preds have the potential to fill the barn on a nightly basis-- see our first two years here. But the fickle Nashville crowd, combinded with a non-traditional market, will make it hard if we don't anything in the playoffs.

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03-17-2010, 12:26 PM
  #100
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San Jose did better in their first 10 years but they had the budget to do so. Also, the talent pool was bigger back then. When the Preds were added to the league, there were 4 teams coming into the league at that time so each team was picking up the trash from everyone else and draining the talent pool. You had another 100 players to a league, the talent pool for that league is going to go down.

The original question was comparing the Preds to the Wild, Thrashers and Blue Jackets and yet you still haven't answered how the Preds have faired compared to the other 3 franchises that came into the league at the same time as us. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Florida and them going to the Finals but have basically been atrocious ever since. How about the Lightning winning the cup. Do they have big fan support in their building? Heck, look at what Phoenix has done with dramatic moves as you've put it and yet they have a hard time drawing people to their games. I'm not bashing these markets at all, I'm just refuting what you have been saying that if you make drastic moves, people will come to watch. There are lots of reasons teams succeed and fail at the box office but I don't think making big moves is one of them

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