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Playoffs!!! Playoffs??? All stretch run talk here!

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Old
03-12-2010, 12:50 PM
  #101
nyr2k2
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Callahan was a fourth round pick. He's got a 40 point season under his belt already and is on pace for another. He's one of the best penalty killers in the game and our heart and soul. He's fresh off an Olympic appearance. You might feel that he has untapped potential, but for what he was supposed to be and where he was taken, he's exceeded expectations.

For a guy taken at the end of the second round, Dubinsky has been just fine. Look at the second round of that draft and tell me you're not happy that we got Dubinsky where we did. I know he's inconsistent, but he's FINE for where we got him. I think you could actually make the argument that he's ahead of schedule.

Prucha has sucked since his last year here, yes, but he was an eighth round pick...that he's in the NHL at all is reasonable expectations exceeded. Dawes was playing well for Calgary before his injury. Again, he was a late round pick, so I'd say he's exceeded expectations as well. Christ, there isn't even an eighth round in the draft anymore!

And Girardi...well, Danny was an undrafted free agent. What were you expecting out of him when we signed him?

Maybe you need to have more reasonable and realistic expectations for these guys.

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Old
03-12-2010, 01:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Huh?? Callahan was a 4th round pick that doesn't have a lot of size and was projected to be a 3rd liner at best, yet put up 20+ goals last season and is on pace to repeat it again. I'd say he's fulfilled everything expected of him and exceeded it exponentially.
I love Ryan Callahan. How can you not? Yes, you are correct, if the goal is for him to be a third liner, he has fulfilled that. Exceeded it exponentially? Even with the PK'ing I'm not sure one season of 22 goals and one where he MAY reach 20 goals means he's exponentially better than a third liner.

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2/3rds of our defense is home-grown.
...and our defense is terrible. Not sure if signing Gilroy as a free agent makes him 'home grown' either.

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Our franchise goalie is home grown.
Well he was drafted by another regime and came right from Sweden to the big club. I guess you can call that home grown if you like...

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We have 3 solid NHL forwards in our lineup today that were developed in our system, and Dawes, Prucha, and Korpikoski who are playing roles on Calgary and Phoenix. Are they all superstars? No, but considering how awful our prospect development has been in the past, it's something to be proud of.
The only thing we have to show for the three we who are playing roles elsewhere and we are so proud of is Enver Lisin. NOT a solid NHL forward, and he may never be. Is this supposed to support Sather?

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Had Cherepanov not passed away, we'd probably have a bonafide scoring winger to add to that list as well.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. The list of players who were supposed to be 'bonafide NHL scorers' before they ever played an NHL game, and never were, is endless.

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03-12-2010, 01:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
I love Ryan Callahan. How can you not? Yes, you are correct, if the goal is for him to be a third liner, he has fulfilled that. Exceeded it exponentially? Even with the PK'ing I'm not sure one season of 22 goals and one where he MAY reach 20 goals means he's exponentially better than a third liner.
You really think he won't score 3 more by the end of the season? When a guy is projected to be a 3rd liner as his ceiling, and he becomes a 20 goal scoring 2nd liner, that's exceeding expectations exponentially. I didn't say "exponentially better than a 3rd liner." You're twisting my words around.

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...and our defense is terrible. Not sure if signing Gilroy as a free agent makes him 'home grown' either.
Fair enough on Gilroy, but their performance as of late doesn't negate the fact that they came up through the Rangers organization, does it? Besides, I don't think nyr2k2 said we were "churning out superstars just fine."

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Well he was drafted by another regime and came right from Sweden to the big club. I guess you can call that home grown if you like...
Are you implying that a player has to spend time with our AHL affiliate to be home grown? By that reasoning, Staal and Del Zotto aren't home grown either since they jumped right from the CHL to the Rangers. Toews, Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, etc, etc, etc.. see where I'm going with that?

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The only thing we have to show for the three we who are playing roles elsewhere and we are so proud of is Enver Lisin. NOT a solid NHL forward, and he may never be. Is this supposed to support Sather?
Who said anything about supporting Sather? I'm supporting the fact that our prospect development is getting better, and our "cupboard" isn't bare.

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Perhaps. Perhaps not. The list of players who were supposed to be 'bonafide NHL scorers' before they ever played an NHL game, and never were, is endless.
I'll take Jagr's word for it. If he thinks Cherry was going to be a player at the NHL level, I have no reason to dispute that.

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Old
03-12-2010, 01:47 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You really think he won't score 3 more by the end of the season? When a guy is projected to be a 3rd liner as his ceiling, and he becomes a 20 goal scoring 2nd liner, that's exceeding expectations exponentially. I didn't say "exponentially better than a 3rd liner." You're twisting my words around.
Sorry, that was not my intention. I really thought that was what you meant. And I did not say Callahan will not score 20 goals, I said he MAY score 20 goals. That's twisting MY words around.

I hope he makes it and I'm rooting for him...heck, I hope he goes on a streak and makes it to 30. But there are numerous one goal in 15-20 game stretches during Callahan's career, so I don't think anything is guaranteed. That's all I said.

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Fair enough on Gilroy, but their performance as of late doesn't negate the fact that they came up through the Rangers organization, does it? Besides, I don't think nyr2k2 said we were "churning out superstars just fine."
Good, because I never accused him of saying that. He said, and I quoted, 'churning out young players just fine'. Neither of us said it the way you just did. More twisting.

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Are you implying that a player has to spend time with our AHL affiliate to be home grown? By that reasoning, Staal and Del Zotto aren't home grown either since they jumped right from the CHL to the Rangers. Toews, Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, etc, etc, etc.. see where I'm going with that?
Yes I do, and if Sather had drafted Lundqvist I would probably feel differently. He inherited Lundqvist. If you want to give Sather credit for not trading Lundqvist, even though we were all being told at the time that Montoya was our franchise goalie, that I do give him credit for.

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Who said anything about supporting Sather? I'm supporting the fact that our prospect development is getting better, and our "cupboard" isn't bare.
It's still an indictment of Sather that we traded three guys who are 'playing roles on Calgary and Phoenix' (not a twist, your exact quote), two teams who are infinitely better than the Rangers, and only have one guy who is barely playing a role here (and cleared waivers) to show for it.

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I'll take Jagr's word for it. If he thinks Cherry was going to be a player at the NHL level, I have no reason to dispute that.
I'm not disputing that either. I'm just saying nothing can be assumed.

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Old
03-12-2010, 02:09 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Sorry, that was not my intention. I really thought that was what you meant. And I did not say Callahan will not score 20 goals, I said he MAY score 20 goals. That's twisting MY words around.

I hope he makes it and I'm rooting for him...heck, I hope he goes on a streak and makes it to 30. But there are numerous one goal in 15-20 game stretches during Callahan's career, so I don't think anything is guaranteed. That's all I said.
It's not twisting your words around. You emphasized the word 'may' which implies that you think there's a significant chance that he won't do it. All I asked was whether or not you actually believed that. I 'may' step outside my office and get hit by a truck. That doesn't mean it's enough evidence to suggest I shouldn't ever leave.

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Good, because I never accused him of saying that. He said, and I quoted, 'churning out young players just fine'. Neither of us said it the way you just did. More twisting.
I know you didn't, that's not my point. My point is that you're disputing the quality of the players ('our defense is terrible'), when his point was simply that those players exist. He said that we've been churning out young players, but you're countering that by saying "they're not good enough." Which is not only wrong, but isn't really an argument against what he said to begin with.

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Yes I do, and if Sather had drafted Lundqvist I would probably feel differently. He inherited Lundqvist. If you want to give Sather credit for not trading Lundqvist, even though we were all being told at the time that Montoya was our franchise goalie, that I do give him credit for.
I'm not giving Sather credit for anything. Even if you take Lundqvist out of the equation, that's only one player amongst those others I've listed. If your point is dependent upon Lundqvist's inclusion, then again you're arguing that the quality of players being 'churned out' aren't up to your standards.

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It's still an indictment of Sather that we traded three guys who are 'playing roles on Calgary and Phoenix' (not a twist, your exact quote), two teams who are infinitely better than the Rangers, and only have one guy who is barely playing a role here (and cleared waivers) to show for it.
Again, why keep bringing Sather into this? You're talking, but I can still see you building a straw man in the corner. We drafted, groomed, and then traded three players that weren't of any use to us anymore. Whether or not that was the right move isn't really the point of this discussion.

Also, to say Calgary is 'infinitely better' than the Rangers is quite a stretch.

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I'm not disputing that either. I'm just saying nothing can be assumed.
No, but 'educated guessing' is what NHL prospect development is all about. Having a sure-fire HOFer say that a player will make a serious impact in the NHL is pretty high praise.

We've had more of our own prospects have an impact on our roster since the lockout than we have since the early 90's. Its a tribute to our scouting department, and a result of the blessing that is the NHL salary cap. Nothing to do with praising Sather.

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03-12-2010, 02:34 PM
  #106
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I don't feel like continuing with the quoting, I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree. Or agree to look at thing differently may be more appropriate.

I do not think Callahan is a lock for 20 goals. If he does not make it, it would certainly not be the first 15 game stretch in which he scored two or less goals. I hope he makes it.

Yes, you can look at the NUMBER of players produced (how many exist), when I would also like to factor in QUALITY of players produced. If you don't want to factor in quality, that's certainly your right. To me, the number of players you have does not make you a winner. The number of quality of players you have makes you a winner. You can disagree if you like.

I bring Sather into this because if you give the team credit for 'churning out young players', you are giving Sather credit...since he's been here ten years. Glen Sather and the development of Rangers' draft picks are not mutually exclusive. If you choose to keep them totally separate...you are on your own there.

The same way he gets credit for developing Prucha, Korpikoski and Dawes, he loses that same credit for trading them away for nothing. I choose to include Sather's overall body of work regarding young players. If you choose to only look at what system the players came up in, thats fine.

Calgary has 10 more points in the same number of games as the Rangers, in a far superior conference. Only emotion would support the fact that Calgary is not far superior to the Rangers. The standings say they are.


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Old
03-12-2010, 02:39 PM
  #107
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When a guy is projected to be a 3rd liner as his ceiling, and he becomes a 20 goal scoring 2nd liner, that's exceeding expectations exponentially.
The problem as I see it is that Callahan is a 20-goal-scoring, second liner only because he plays on a talent-poor team. He has produced what a good third liner should produce if given an inordinate amount of ice time. Ryan Callahan should not be playing 20:00/night, and if you DO play a guy like Callahan 20:00/night, you get what this team has: a sub-.500 record.

On a genuinely contending team, Callahan plays 15:00/night on the third line and PK units and no longer posts twenty goals.

That said, I'd say he's met expectations. Most people had him pegged as a high-energy 3rd liner as a prospect, and that's exactly what he is.

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03-12-2010, 02:52 PM
  #108
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Clarke & Co. does the scouting/drafting now, and that's why we're seeing more players coming out of our own prospect pool. What does Sather actually do when it comes to the development process? Virtually nothing. I don't give my boss credit when I complete a project, so why would Sather get credit when the employees are actually doing their jobs well? You could say "Well, he put them there," but that's just a solitary instance where he may have resembled a competent GM.

I'm not arguing against the fact that the quality hasn't been astounding, but again, that's not really the point that was made. You're both right in this instance, but you can't factor in something that wasn't part of the original point just to say the original point was incorrect.

Calgary is faring better than we are, but I still don't think they're 'infinitely better.' Standings don't always tell the story.

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03-12-2010, 02:58 PM
  #109
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The problem as I see it is that Callahan is a 20-goal-scoring, second liner only because he plays on a talent-poor team. He has produced what a good third liner should produce if given an inordinate amount of ice time. Ryan Callahan should not be playing 20:00/night, and if you DO play a guy like Callahan 20:00/night, you get what this team has: a sub-.500 record.

On a genuinely contending team, Callahan plays 15:00/night on the third line and PK units and no longer posts twenty goals.

That said, I'd say he's met expectations. Most people had him pegged as a high-energy 3rd liner as a prospect, and that's exactly what he is.
You can certainly argue both sides, but I'm not sure I believe the notion of "any good 3rd liner can do it." As I've said before, there aren't enough 20 goal scorers to fill out the top-six of every team in the league. If that's the case, why aren't more good 3rd line types stepping up and putting the puck in the net when given the opportunity? I think he's better than people give him credit for.

I don't think we can legitimately answer the "Is he a 2nd or 3rd liner" question until we can put him into a situation where he has to compete for the spot. It is sort of "handed" to him right now, but that's not to say he doesn't deserve it as well.

I've always said that the day Callahan is a 3rd liner on this team, is the day we start competing for a cup. I think we can both agree on that.

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03-12-2010, 02:59 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Calgary is faring better than we are, but I still don't think they're 'infinitely better.' Standings don't always tell the story.
Bill Parcells disagrees...

Can we petition the NHL to use a different method than the standings to determine who makes the playoffs? Can we convince them there is much more to the story than which team has the most points?

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03-12-2010, 03:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Bill Parcells disagrees...

Can we petition the NHL to use a different method than the standings to determine who makes the playoffs? Can we convince them there is much more to the story than which team has the most points?
Carolina was dead last in the league 6 weeks ago, and now they're back in the playoff hunt. Were they really a horrible team, or a victim of circumstance and underachieving players?

Is Edmonton really the worst team in the league, or is a large part of it due to the fact that they lost their best forward and starting goalie in the first 8 weeks of the season?

Is Detroit a borderline playoff team? Or has their season been hampered by injury after injury?

8 weeks ago, Calgary fans were calling for a fire sale and looking towards a top-10 pick. Now they're in the playoffs.

Like I said, standings don't tell the whole story.

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03-12-2010, 03:13 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Carolina was dead last in the league 6 weeks ago, and now they're back in the playoff hunt. Were they really a horrible team, or a victim of circumstance and underachieving players?

Is Edmonton really the worst team in the league, or is a large part of it due to the fact that they lost their best forward and starting goalie in the first 8 weeks of the season?

Is Detroit a borderline playoff team? Or has their season been hampered by injury after injury?

8 weeks ago, Calgary fans were calling for a fire sale and looking towards a top-10 pick. Now they're in the playoffs.

Like I said, standings don't tell the whole story.

Fair enough, injuries can have a huge effect, and the above examples you gave are all valid.

Only one problem...the Rangers are near the bottom of the list of man games lost to injury. There is no way on earth you can use injuries as an excuse for Calgary being 10 points higher than the Rangers in the standings in a far superior conference.

Regarding the Rangers, that point is not valid at all.

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03-12-2010, 03:18 PM
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Fair enough, injuries can have a huge effect, and the above examples you gave are all valid.

Only one problem...the Rangers are near the bottom of the list of man games lost to injury. There is no way on earth you can use injuries as an excuse for Calgary being 10 points higher than the Rangers in the standings in a far superior conference.

Regarding the Rangers, that point is not valid at all.
I didn't say that Calgary wasn't the better team, I just think "infinitely better" is excessive.

My only point was that you can't always justify which team is 'better' based on the standings. Hence the reason I listed those other teams.

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03-12-2010, 03:20 PM
  #114
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I didn't say that Calgary wasn't the better team, I just think "infinitely better" is excessive.

My only point was that you can't always justify which team is 'better' based on the standings. Hence the reason I listed those other teams.
The Rangers need a different excuse...

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03-12-2010, 03:21 PM
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The Rangers need a different excuse...
They don't need an excuse.. they're just lousy.

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03-12-2010, 04:21 PM
  #116
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As I've said before, there aren't enough 20 goal scorers to fill out the top-six of every team in the league.
That's true but it's just as easily flipped: How many 20:00/night guys fail to score twenty goals in a season? Very few, and those who aren't making 20 goals are pouring in assists; that is, they're using their time setting up other players' goals.

The fact is, plenty of top-six players - meaning second-liners - AREN'T averaging the minutes Callahan does. Twenty minutes per night is a TOI associated with top-3 players, not top-6.

Ryan Callahan is 33rd in the league among forwards in TOI average. His point production is far from reflecting that figure. (He's 130th in the league in scoring, and would be lower yet if a number of players behind him had played as many games.)

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I don't think we can legitimately answer the "Is he a 2nd or 3rd liner" question until we can put him into a situation where he has to compete for the spot.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the disparity in the numbers above is decisive. He does not need to compete for the spot. It's been given to him, yet he has not produced according to the spot given him.

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I've always said that the day Callahan is a 3rd liner on this team, is the day we start competing for a cup. I think we can both agree on that.
We can for sure.

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03-13-2010, 07:36 AM
  #117
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Crucial Boston/Montreal matchup today, guaranteed 3-pointer obviously.

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03-13-2010, 08:01 AM
  #118
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Bill Parcells disagrees...

Can we petition the NHL to use a different method than the standings to determine who makes the playoffs? Can we convince them there is much more to the story than which team has the most points?
We could... if that were the case we'd be in the draft lottery already.

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03-13-2010, 08:37 AM
  #119
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That game against Pitt, off the Olympic break, was a real letdown. Same with the Devils game. 2 games against better teams we let get away. To have any hope of making the playoffs, they must start believing in themselves,... that they can beat these teams. Looks like they just gave up believing they're that good.

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03-13-2010, 08:55 AM
  #120
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This thread seems to have gone OT so let's bring it On Topic: the next five games are huge!

Sun, Mar 14 Philadelphia Flyers vs Philadelphia (35-27-4) 3:00 pm EDT
Tue, Mar 16 Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal (34-29-6) 7:30 pm EDT
Thu, Mar 18 St. Louis Blues vs St. Louis (31-26-9) 7:00 pm EDT
Sun, Mar 21 Boston Bruins @ Boston (30-24-12) 12:30 pm EDT
Wed, Mar 24 New York Islanders vs NY Islanders (26-32-9) 7:00 pm EDT

Games against Philly, Boston, Montreal: teams we are currently chasing and two teams that are out of playoff contention. We need to pick up at least 8 out of 10 points and we will be in good position.

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03-13-2010, 10:19 AM
  #121
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Looks like they just gave up believing they're that good.
With good cause. They're not. You may characterize those games as ones which the Rangers "let get away," but the reality is that Pittsburgh and the Devils TOOK those games away. They could do so because they are far ahead of the Rangers.

As I've said many times, IMO the Rangers will make the playoffs, but that's because they'll have the opportunity to compete against enough other mediocre teams like themselves, teams like Atlanta. The belief that they can beat the best teams in the league will not help them an ounce. A bad conference will.

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03-13-2010, 10:46 AM
  #122
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and then what

and then what? we play the caps or pens first round and get knocked out any way, this team needs to chase the flyers for the 6th seed to have a chance of getting the devils first round. If not its a worthless run. itd be nice, but its not going anywhere against wash or pitt.

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03-13-2010, 11:05 AM
  #123
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and then what? we play the caps or pens first round and get knocked out any way, this team needs to chase the flyers for the 6th seed to have a chance of getting the devils first round. If not its a worthless run. itd be nice, but its not going anywhere against wash or pitt.
It's not going anywhere against the Devils, Flyers, or Sabres either.

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03-18-2010, 10:07 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by GothamRanger View Post
This thread seems to have gone OT so let's bring it On Topic: the next five games are huge!

Sun, Mar 14 Philadelphia Flyers vs Philadelphia (35-27-4) 3:00 pm EDT Tue, Mar 16 Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal (34-29-6) 7:30 pm EDT
Thu, Mar 18 St. Louis Blues vs St. Louis (31-26-9) 7:00 pm EDT
Sun, Mar 21 Boston Bruins @ Boston (30-24-12) 12:30 pm EDT
Wed, Mar 24 New York Islanders vs NY Islanders (26-32-9) 7:00 pm EDT

We need to pick up at least 8 out of 10 points and we will be in good position.
So much for that.

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