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Old
03-20-2010, 12:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Oh yeah... en route to a lottery pick for Boston...

They're winning some games at the end of the year after the deadline when there's no pressure. Good for them, but it means nothing. They did the same thing last year, and the year before.

Gotta love Phaneuf's 0 goals, 4pts and -1 rating in 15 games too. On pace for less than 30 points on the year. When are you going to make a thread about him not being worth 6.5 million?
I think the Boston deal is pretty brutal, Kessel is earning his keep, but losing a potential top 2 pick and top 10 the following year is not very shrewd.

That being said I think Burke on balance has done very well with the disaster of a team JFJ/Fletcher left him.

His team has become much younger an is beginning to show it's competitive. I'd argue he hasn't lost a trade either, with some of them clear wins even at this early stage.

Whereas under Murray's tenure we've only become older and less competitive. Can someone point me to a trade Murray's made we've actually clearly won?

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03-20-2010, 01:05 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I think the Boston deal is pretty brutal, Kessel is earning his keep, but losing a potential top 2 pick and top 10 the following year is not very shrewd.

That being said I Burke on balance has done very well with the disaster of a team JFJ/Fletcher left him.

His team has become much younger and much more competitive. I'd argue he hasn't lost a trade either, with some of them clear wins even at this early stage.

Whereas under Murray's tenure we've only gotten older and less competitive. Can someone point me to a trade Murray's made we've actually clearly won?
Regarding Burke, he's certainly made his team younger, but more competitive? That remains to be seen.
In 06/07 the Leafs finished just 1 point out of the playoffs. In 07/08 they finished 12th in the East with 83 points. Then, Burke was hired. Last year they finished 12th in the East with 81 points. This year they're well on there way to finishing last in the East with 70-74 points.
I don't see how they're any more competitive than they were. They've gotten worse.

I won't pretend that Murray's done an outstanding job, but I don't think his trades are all that bad. His biggest problem for the longest time was picking **** coaches.

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03-20-2010, 01:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Oh yeah... en route to a lottery pick for Boston...
He overpaid for a 35+ goal guy. A 22 year old sniper that is developing into one of the NHL's best finishers. I'm sure Burke would not want to give as much up but he'll have to even it out in other avenues such as signing the Bozaks of the world for free.

We could desperately use a player of Kessel's ability. The people laughing at Burke for paying what he did, at least he did not give away a 50 goal scorer.

Kessel is the best young sniper in the NE division, we don't have a forward close to his goal scoring ability.

Quote:
They're winning some games at the end of the year after the deadline when there's no pressure. Good for them, but it means nothing. They did the same thing last year, and the year before.
I'm not looking at the wins and losses just the youth that has been collected.

Forwards 25 and under Kessel, Grabovski, Kulemen, Bozak, Stahlberg and Caputi

Brought in a 24 year old former Norris finalist and potential franchise defenseman to build around.
Has a 20 year old shutdown defenseman top 10 pick developing as a number two.
Then Gunnersson looks like the 22 year old will be a second pair 2nd unit PP type guy.

Gustavsson 25Yrs old is having a decent rookie season.

Have not even touched on prospects they do have.

Quote:
Gotta love Phaneuf's 0 goals, 4pts and -1 rating in 15 games too. On pace for less than 30 points on the year. When are you going to make a thread about him not being worth 6.5 million?
Not the first time an offennsive defenseman offensively slumped in his early 20's
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3965

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03-20-2010, 01:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
He overpaid for a 35+ goal guy. A 22 year old sniper that is developing into one of the NHL's best finishers. I'm sure Burke would not want to give as much up but he'll have to even it out in other avenues such as signing the Bozaks of the world for free.

We could desperately use a player of Kessel's ability. The people laughing at Burke for paying what he did, at least he did not give away a 50 goal scorer.

Kessel is the best young sniper in the NE division, we don't have a forward close to his goal scoring ability.



I'm not looking at the wins and losses just the youth that has been collected.

Forwards 25 and under Kessel, Grabovski, Kulemen, Bozak, Stahlberg and Caputi

Brought in a 24 year old former Norris finalist and potential franchise defenseman to build around.
Has a 20 year old shutdown defenseman top 10 pick developing as a number two.
Then Gunnersson looks like the 22 year old will be a second pair 2nd unit PP type guy.

Gustavsson 25Yrs old is having a decent rookie season.

Have not even touched on prospects they do have.



Not the first time an offennsive defenseman offensively slumped in his early 20's
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3965
Watch this:

Murray has a 26 year old franchise centerman signed longterm who's already broken 90 points twice in his career. The Leafs don't have a player with that kind of offensive talent.

He has a 24 year old big, offensively talented two way winger who can excel at both ends of the ice. Granted, he's struggled during the second half, but it's not the first time a young player who's big, fast and good defensively faces some adversity in his 20s before breaking out: http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=23724

Karlsson is an 18 year old who looks like he'll be one of the league's best offensive defensemen sooner rather than later.

Then we have Foligno (21) and Regin (23) looking like they'll be solid 2nd line players.

Elliott (24) is having a solid sophomore season with a .910 SV%.

And then you have a couple of top prospects like Cowen and Wiercioch in the pipeline.

Doesn't look that bad, does it?

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03-20-2010, 01:25 PM
  #105
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I like Kessel, a lot but in hindsight, the trade it not good and that is an under statement. He should have lottery protected those picks but he never saw the Leafs doing this bad. There is no sugarcoating that trade, it is a monumental back breaking trade.

his recent moves have been fine and I won't for a minute argue that BM is better given his track record on trades the past couple of years.

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03-20-2010, 01:27 PM
  #106
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Foligno and Regin... Good

But not top prospects like a Filatov - Veracek - Evander kane - Kadri.. etc
We lack major tallent up front in the youth ranks (peterson & Silfverberg) aren't Kadri like players. They're potential second line players.

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03-20-2010, 01:29 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Regarding Burke, he's certainly made his team younger, but more competitive? That remains to be seen.
In 06/07 the Leafs finished just 1 point out of the playoffs. In 07/08 they finished 12th in the East with 83 points. Then, Burke was hired. Last year they finished 12th in the East with 81 points. This year they're well on there way to finishing last in the East with 70-74 points.
I don't see how they're any more competitive than they were. They've gotten worse.

I won't pretend that Murray's done an outstanding job, but I don't think his trades are all that bad. His biggest problem for the longest time was picking **** coaches.
Since the Phanuef trade Toronto is 8-5-2. I think they're headed in the right direction.

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03-20-2010, 01:30 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
Foligno and Regin... Good

But not top prospects like a Filatov - Veracek - Evander kane - Kadri.. etc
We lack major tallent up front in the youth ranks (peterson & Silfverberg) aren't Kadri like players. They're potential second line players.
Good thing we have a 1st round pick this year. Hopefully we can grab a legit offensive prospect with our 15-20 pick. Maybe even trade up into the 10-15 range.

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03-20-2010, 01:30 PM
  #109
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Spezza is boss but in case you have not been watching whats the point of having all this playmaking when nobody can score goals consistently.

Our forward youth flat out sucks compared to Toronto. It's brutal, with Alfie and Kovalev as fading stars what guy are we going to replace them with?

The Leafs have comparable youth on defense and in net on roster and in system.

Our young forwards suck though. I see the difficulty we have scoring and nothing on the way to solve that.

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03-20-2010, 01:30 PM
  #110
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The team is fine ....just chill people

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Old
03-20-2010, 01:33 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Good thing we have a 1st round pick this year. Hopefully we can grab a legit offensive prospect with our 15-20 pick. Maybe even trade up into the 10-15 range.
Nice so when Spezza is 30 and Alfie is 40 we might have a young sniper

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03-20-2010, 01:33 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Since the Phanuef trade Toronto is 8-5-2. I think they're headed in the right direction.
It's the end of the year. The pressure's off. Bad teams do well at the end of the year all the time. It's nice streak for them, but not indicative of where they'll be next season. They could easily keep it going, but just as easily fall back to their previous 50 game pace and suck.

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03-20-2010, 01:35 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
Foligno and Regin... Good

But not top prospects like a Filatov - Veracek - Evander kane - Kadri.. etc
We lack major tallent up front in the youth ranks (peterson & Silfverberg) aren't Kadri like players. They're potential second line players.
Having seen Kadri play many times this season, including the single worst, yet most exciting game I have ever seen, an 8-7 SO victory for the Knights over the Erie Otters, let me tell you how drastically overrated he is.

Drastically.

He tries to walk through a team by himself, leading to a giveaway and then will often take a lazy hooking penalty on the way out of the zone.

He has 105 penalty minutes...and plays a perimeter game.

He makes backbreaking giveaways at the worst time.

He may be the most overrated player in the OHL, his point totals show his offensive skill, but you are missing the whole picture.

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03-20-2010, 01:37 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Nice so when Spezza is 30 and Alfie is 40 we might have a young sniper
Yeah, it might take some time. Just like it'll take some time for Kadri to become an NHLer.

Hopefully in the meantime, while Phaneuf is turning into Scott Niedermayer like you claim will happen, Michalek will be turning into Patrick Marleau.

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03-20-2010, 01:41 PM
  #115
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Yeah, it might take some time. Just like it'll take some time for Kadri to become an NHLer.

Hopefully in the meantime, while Phaneuf is turning into Scott Niedermayer like you claim will happen, Michalek will be turning into Patrick Marleau.
Phaneuf has a few 50 point seasons and been a finalist for the Norris. What has MM done? Leach off Thornton like Cheechoo...

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03-20-2010, 01:45 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post

Our forward youth flat out sucks compared to Toronto.
And what?

Our best young offensive player (Spezza) is just as good as their best young offensive player (Kessel). He's proven a hell of a lot more too.

Michalek (24) is just as good as Bozak (23)

Foligno (21), Regin (23) and Smith (21) have just as much potential as Kulemin (22), Stalberg (24) and Caputi (20).

In terms of prospects, the Leafs have who? Kadri? He looks like a good offensive talent, but has quite a few other issues to work out before he becomes a player. Other than him, there's nothing there better than Petersson, Silfverberg, etc.

And I didn't include Grabovski because he sucks and more then likely won't be with the Leafs next year.

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03-20-2010, 01:47 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Phaneuf has a few 50 point seasons and been a finalist for the Norris. What has MM done? Leach off Thornton like Cheechoo...
Michalek rarely played with Thornton in SJ. Nice try though. But you're right, Michalek has nothing. A 66 point season, a 55 point season and a 57 point season in his last 3. Brutal, I know. Did you know that Michalek's best season is better than Kessel's? And he did it at 22, the same age Kessel is now. Craaazy.

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03-20-2010, 01:50 PM
  #118
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In terms of prospects, the Leafs have who? Kadri? He looks like a good offensive talent, but has quite a few other issues to work out before he becomes a player. Other than him, there's nothing there better than Petersson, Silfverberg, etc.
Amen to that...Kadri's game in a nutshell.

Last night

Takes 6 (!?) minutes in penalties, 2 for high sticking, 2 for a check to the head (HE THREW A HIT?), 2 for Goaltender Interference

Scores OT GWG to open the OHL playoffs.

Finishes with 1g 1a +1 and 6PIM against a truly inferior opponent...

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03-20-2010, 01:53 PM
  #119
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Phaneuf has a few 50 point seasons and been a finalist for the Norris. What has MM done? Leach off Thornton like Cheechoo...
Dude seriously sometimes you should just give up. You where the one saying how amazing Mezaros was and will be and he is doing fack all, he was borderline bought out by Tampa.

Your player analysis are ridiculous because you only portray them as it suits you.

If Murray gave up a lottery draft pick with a possible high first round pick and a second round pick for a player like Kessel you'd be ******** on him like the world was about to end.

Kessel is a good player...but hes not a franchise player and hes not a game breaker. Sure he enjoys success against the Sens but what exacatly did he do per say for team USA in the big games ? He was invisible. Hes selfish. His style is selfish. He doesn't make players around him better.

Players like Parise, Kessler those are guys I'd consider giving up a lot for, those guys do everything. What does Kessel do ? skate down the ice and shoot the puck 8 times a game and hopes one of the 8 shots goes inn.

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03-20-2010, 01:54 PM
  #120
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Spezza can score goals like Kessel? Well we could use some right now.
I'd take Caputi, Stalberg and Kulemen over Foligno, Regin and Smith.

Kadri is better then any prospect we have and It's unfortunate you don't know who Hayes, Hanson, D'Amingo, Paradis, DiDomenico are. If these guys were in our system there would be fans gushing over them

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03-20-2010, 02:00 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Spezza can score goals like Kessel? Well we could use some right now.
I'd take Caputi, Stalberg and Kulemen over Foligno, Regin and Smith.

Kadri is better then any prospect we have and It's unfortunate you don't know who Hayes, Hanson, D'Amingo, Paradis, DiDomenico are. If these guys were in our system there would be fans gushing over them
Spezza's career high in goals is just 2 shy of Kessel's, and he's done it twice in less games, so yeah, you could say that he can score just as much.

You're right though, he could put some more in now. A bad 5 game streak doesn't take away from his overall abilities though.

And on what basis would you take those guys over Foligno/Regin/Smith other than having a hard on for everything Burke? It's certainly nothing they've shown at the NHL level.

Hayes? Hanson? DiDomenico? Every team has those types of prospects, including Ottawa. If some of them pan out, great, but they're far from sure bets.

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03-20-2010, 02:03 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Spezza can score goals like Kessel? Well we could use some right now.
I'd take Caputi, Stalberg and Kulemen over Foligno, Regin and Smith.

Kadri is better then any prospect we have and It's unfortunate you don't know who Hayes, Hanson, D'Amingo, Paradis, DiDomenico are. If these guys were in our system there would be fans gushing over them
Yeah right....

Kessel career high in goals is 36. Spezza 34 and thats playing 67 games.

Kessel scores in bunches and brings nothing else to the table.

Maybe you should just become a Leaf fan...everyone here knows deep down you are one.

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03-20-2010, 02:08 PM
  #123
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I personally think that every one of Murray's trades we have won, even the heatley one. Unless you think that that the Penner, smid, cogs would have been better for the team and its cap space. Or that if you were GM, you would show Murray how's it done and get a much better deal.

As a leader of men, and a team that wanted to move forward, Murray had to make the trade. Some of you act like Cheechoo will never return. What if he became our Kontos?

Trading a late 1st rounder for a $600k pmd, a late 1st that 4 GMs went on to trade, and then suggesting that $600k pmds are easy to find and not worth paying a late 1st for, or that unlike the 4 other GM's who traded that late pick, our extra late 1st rounder, one GM who even traded it just to move up for a better pick, seems to suggest that one of GM's or fans are wrong about that picks value.

Funniest to me, is those who are suggesting we shouldnt trade two late 2nds for a chance to win the Cup. Murray saw a team that was winning, challenging for the division, showing it deserved a chance to be given the best show to compete, and he astutely identified our needs, adressed them as well as was available, at the right price, as well as any other GM, again, and now there are those suggesting that they will be here to say I told you so.

Because look, TRYING is a failing strategy. Only about 5-10% percent of teams that try will win. So obviously, only a fool would try. And when the Sens dont win the Cup, I will be back here to laugh and say ha, i told you say, that's what you get for trying. We need a better GM that wont try.

Because being one of 30 equal teams with a chance to win, i mean, who wants that? That's hard and scary. Better to give up, not try, and blame everyone.

Where's my hossenfeffer? Off with his head.

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03-20-2010, 02:19 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Spezza is boss but in case you have not been watching whats the point of having all this playmaking when nobody can score goals consistently.

Our forward youth flat out sucks compared to Toronto. It's brutal, with Alfie and Kovalev as fading stars what guy are we going to replace them with?

The Leafs have comparable youth on defense and in net on roster and in system.

Our young forwards suck though. I see the difficulty we have scoring and nothing on the way to solve that.
Yeah, the guy who's topped 30 goals 3 times and has scored above a 40 goal pace for a whole season can't score goals.

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03-20-2010, 02:20 PM
  #125
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I personally think that every one of Murray's trades we have won, even the heatley one. Unless you think that that the Penner, smid, cogs would have been better for the team and its cap space. Or that if you were GM, you would show Murray how's it done and get a much better deal.

As a leader of men, and a team that wanted to move forward, Murray had to make the trade. Some of you act like Cheechoo will never return. What if he became our Kontos?

Trading a late 1st rounder for a $600k pmd, a late 1st that 4 GMs went on to trade, and then suggesting that $600k pmds are easy to find and not worth paying a late 1st for, or that unlike the 4 other GM's who traded that late pick, our extra late 1st rounder, one GM who even traded it just to move up for a better pick, seems to suggest that one of GM's or fans are wrong about that picks value.

Funniest to me, is those who are suggesting we shouldnt trade two late 2nds for a chance to win the Cup. Murray saw a team that was winning, challenging for the division, showing it deserved a chance to be given the best show to compete, and he astutely identified our needs, adressed them as well as was available, at the right price, as well as any other GM, again, and now there are those suggesting that they will be here to say I told you so.

Because look, TRYING is a failing strategy. Only about 5-10% percent of teams that try will win. So obviously, only a fool would try. And when the Sens dont win the Cup, I will be back here to laugh and say ha, i told you say, that's what you get for trying. We need a better GM that wont try.

Because being one of 30 equal teams with a chance to win, i mean, who wants that? That's hard and scary. Better to give up, not try, and blame everyone.

Where's my hossenfeffer? Off with his head.
Campoli has not panned out to be the PMD anyone in Ottawa had hoped he would be. Even Murray publically admitted he took it up the azz on that trade.

I'm not commenting on Heatley trade because we just do not know all of the facts. My only beef is that Murray obviously thought the guys could convince Heatley to return to the Sens and waited too long to move him. He said it wasn;t until he say the look in Heatley's eyes on the first day of camp that he knew he had to move him immediately. Well he tied his own hands to a degree on that one. Everyone in Ottawa save the few who here who are now crying that we should have held on to him, knew that he needed to be moved.

Not trading Volchie and trading for Cullen and Sutton are great if we win a few rounds and can re-sign them, otherwise it is bad asset management. We need picks, look at our prospects...we are not in a position to be trading away picks for rentals and noone in a moment of honesty actually believes the Sens will win the cup...though hope does spring the heart eternal.

Not to mention the trades last year that have so far backfired.

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