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Old
03-17-2010, 04:30 PM
  #126
tarheelhockey
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Stephane Yelle
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Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
Tom Kostopoulos
That's not a coin flip I'd like to make too often.

bleedgreen, if the goal is to clear cash by getting rid of a low-scoring right winger who still has some trade value, I can think of another possible target... one with a much bigger cap number and a lot better trade value...

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Old
03-17-2010, 05:23 PM
  #127
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That's not a coin flip I'd like to make too often.
When the price tag is between $500K and $700K, it's not like it's a huge risk.

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Old
03-17-2010, 08:56 PM
  #128
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the change i would like to see is make francis head coach bring in daniels as an asst and send Mo to albany if he must stay on the payroll
Id like to nominate this for nonsensical post of the day

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03-17-2010, 10:25 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's not a coin flip I'd like to make too often.

bleedgreen, if the goal is to clear cash by getting rid of a low-scoring right winger who still has some trade value, I can think of another possible target... one with a much bigger cap number and a lot better trade value...
Nobody wants that certain player because a stiff breeze will knock him out of the lineup for three months.

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Old
03-17-2010, 10:43 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm going to try and consolidate this to make it more readable. Pardon my taking your quotes and moving them around a bit.
All of this is the responsibility of the coaching staff, not the GM or the player. LaRose doesn't draw up the line combinations and shouldn't be held accountable for ice-time decisions.
I never intended to indicate otherwise. As it is, the coaching staff does not view LaRose as a fourth line player and has given him similar ES time to all the "scoring" players other than Staal/Whitney. He is a roadblock to a younger player getting ice time just as much as Cole and even moreso than Samsonov.


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In terms of what he can control, however, he has shown that he can score in the neighborhood of 15 goals when asked to play that role, plays pretty solid defense, and is generally a positive influence on the team. We can't honestly say there are an abundance of guys in Albany who are prepared to bring all of that to the table, even if they had the opportunity. And even if there were, again it comes back to the coaching staff to scratch and waive players as necessary to move new players into the lineup... it's not the management team's responsibility to force that process via trades.
It is when you are working with a tight budget. Coaches can scratch players, but do not waive players. And waiving a player does not get rid of his salary unless someone picks him up (sending a player to the minors will get rid of that cap hit, but that really doesn't matter to us as we will still be paying full salary).

There are not an abundance of guys in Albany who can do all of that, but there are also precisely zero guys in Albany who make $1.9M.

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Stephane Yelle.
Exactly. Yelle wasn't great, but he also wasn't making $1.9M to skate his 9 minutes on the 4th line. He was a decent penalty killer, which is the same as LaRose. Did Yelle score 15 goals? No. Was he paid to score 15 goals? No. Did him not scoring 15 goals hurt the team in comparison to expectations for him? No.

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I would assume these guys will all need to come to camp and actually compete for their positions. Again, if that's not happening as it should the blame goes back to the coaching staff for making poor lineup decisions.
There are only so many roster spots, lineup spots and salary room available. Sutter competed for a spot in camp and deserved it, but that didn't matter because players like LaRose who completely sucked for the first few months of the season were GUARANTEED spots in the Top 9 no matter what.



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I'm still not clear on how getting rid of LaRose, who would need to be replaced for a savings of, at most, maybe $1M, would have any significant effect on the cap situation. You're talking about dumping a guy who has spent his entire career in the system, so Karmanos can save a bit on the bottom line?
No, he can be replaced by Patrick Dwyer, who is signed for next year at $500k. If LaRose is going to be on the 4th line, then he's not going to hit the numbers you project. The guy has gotten the equivalent of second line ES time for the past three years. Dwyer instead LaRose on the 4th line is a marginal difference with a significant salary difference.

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Old
03-17-2010, 11:19 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
There are only so many roster spots, lineup spots and salary room available. Sutter competed for a spot in camp and deserved it, but that didn't matter because players like LaRose who completely sucked for the first few months of the season were GUARANTEED spots in the Top 9 no matter what.
Assuming you mean this year, he was fighting off the injury that kept him out since the beginning of the year. Apparently, the problem with the beginning of the year was simply players not realizing playing hurt doesn't benefit the team in the long run.

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No, he can be replaced by Patrick Dwyer, who is signed for next year at $500k. If LaRose is going to be on the 4th line, then he's not going to hit the numbers you project. The guy has gotten the equivalent of second line ES time for the past three years. Dwyer instead LaRose on the 4th line is a marginal difference with a significant salary difference.
Two things:

1. Dwyer doesn't play the PK. A relatively minor thing, but a difference none the less.
2. Dwyer doesn't have that ability to jump up lines. Yes, if LaRose was simply delegated to the 4th line, then he's overpaid and could easily be replaced by an AHLer. But given this team's history with injuries, you want a player that can be put into any line and succeed.

This is the same noise that was spouted when he signed the contract. Nothing more than a 4th liner, overpaid for a 4th liner, etc. And yet he always manages to play most of the season in the Top 9.

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Old
03-18-2010, 12:18 AM
  #132
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Assuming you mean this year, he was fighting off the injury that kept him out since the beginning of the year. Apparently, the problem with the beginning of the year was simply players not realizing playing hurt doesn't benefit the team in the long run.
I wasn't meaning that as a criticism of LaRose, but rather that the Gritty Veteran players who sucked continued to get tons of ice time no matter what.

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Two things:

1. Dwyer doesn't play the PK. A relatively minor thing, but a difference none the less.
Dwyer has averaged more PK time than any forward other than Yelle and Kostopoulos. That includes LaRose, Cullen and Sutter.

Patrick Dwyer: 2:14 of shorthanded time per game.
LaRose: 2:02 of shorthanded time per game.

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2. Dwyer doesn't have that ability to jump up lines. Yes, if LaRose was simply delegated to the 4th line, then he's overpaid and could easily be replaced by an AHLer. But given this team's history with injuries, you want a player that can be put into any line and succeed.
$1.9M for depth insurance is too much. We have forward depth in the minors now, unlike in previous years when the only forwards we had there were career AHLers/4th line fill-ins. When someone gets hurt, let the prospects get a shot. LaRose is LaRose and will always be what he is, which is a third liner at best.

If LaRose "jumps" lines, where does that leave the prospects? To play on the 4th line, then get written off as "busts" because they don't produce playing 9 minutes a game with Trevor Letowski. See Andrew Ladd.

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This is the same noise that was spouted when he signed the contract. Nothing more than a 4th liner, overpaid for a 4th liner, etc. And yet he always manages to play most of the season in the Top 9.
Oh, yes, because LaRose sure has made us eat our words with his outstanding production this season.

He has played in the Top 9 due to a lack of depth. If he received ice time more in line with his limited talents, he wouldn't be producing the meager numbers that he does. How many times do we have to hear "19 goals" before someone notes that he had 12 assists? If a career year for a player consists of 31 points, then that player likely isn't too offensively gifted.

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Old
03-18-2010, 03:39 AM
  #133
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Half the battle of competition in this lineup is monetary. If you make twice as much as the guy who is competing against you, he's twice as likely to keep his spot. Even if you outplay him by double, you'll always be "next year's option". Hell, it took Brind'Amour 120 games to skank up his spot in the lineup and he looked like he couldn't be trying any harder to screw up his legacy if he came out in a Scott Stevens jersey and started chirping fans.

What we have now is so much young talent that the front office doesn't know what to do with its loyalty. The standard procedure for keeping useless veterans around and begging them to produce is no longer applicable. We could, potentially, have open competition for ice time if we wanted to do so. Sadly, we do not.

There is no reason at all that Boychuk, Samson, Tlusty, McBain, and even a few guys like Dodge, Bowman, Blanchard, and Chaput shouldn't be getting at least SOME consideration to take over the full time roles of some of these overpaid stiffs that decided the season started in January. Instead, we get Erik Cole and Chad Larose going through the motions. Ray Whitney celebrating not being traded by doing jack squat. Eric Staal healing up from the Olympics on the company dime. Just a gaggle of players that can't be bothered to do their jobs right now.... because why should they push it right now? It's not like they're in danger of not being here when things get better. The young guys, when they DO get the rare chance to come in, have to produce EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. or the role is handed directly back to the default loafer it was taken from and the player is abruptly and discretely sent back to Albany with an attaboy and a promise to try them again next year.

In Carolina, your salary indicates your importance. Most everywhere else, your performance indicates your salary. If it doesn't, it's not for long.

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Old
03-18-2010, 06:28 AM
  #134
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If all these guys are as bad as you make out, then yes there's absolutely no reason the kids we have up here can't do the job better and cheaper.

By the way, each time Samson comes back, he gets better - I hope he's proving a point to Canes management...

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Old
03-18-2010, 07:30 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
I wasn't meaning that as a criticism of LaRose, but rather that the Gritty Veteran players who sucked continued to get tons of ice time no matter what.

Dwyer has averaged more PK time than any forward other than Yelle and Kostopoulos. That includes LaRose, Cullen and Sutter.

Patrick Dwyer: 2:14 of shorthanded time per game.
LaRose: 2:02 of shorthanded time per game.
My mistake then. Never notice Dwyer out there.

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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
$1.9M for depth insurance is too much. We have forward depth in the minors now, unlike in previous years when the only forwards we had there were career AHLers/4th line fill-ins. When someone gets hurt, let the prospects get a shot. LaRose is LaRose and will always be what he is, which is a third liner at best.

If LaRose "jumps" lines, where does that leave the prospects? To play on the 4th line, then get written off as "busts" because they don't produce playing 9 minutes a game with Trevor Letowski. See Andrew Ladd.
And yet you seem to want the prospect to play the 4th line, since you want them to take LaRose's designated spot on the 4th line, because they make less money.

And of course, there's the whole concept of easing a player into the NHL. I can't claim to have first-hand knowledge, but from interviews and such from callups, the NHL and the AHL are two different beasts. To play in the AHL and then suddenly find yourself facing top defensive pairings in the NHL because you're popped into the Top 9?

I'd rather have them play on the 4th line, and if they show something there, the next time they're called up, since where it goes from there. And who have we called up that deserves to play in the Top 9? Dwyer's not shown more than 4th line ability, Samson's played far too little to get a good reading, and Boychuk's about as up and down as can be. He'll have a good game, then the next game, his size becomes completely obvious.


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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Oh, yes, because LaRose sure has made us eat our words with his outstanding production this season.

He has played in the Top 9 due to a lack of depth. If he received ice time more in line with his limited talents, he wouldn't be producing the meager numbers that he does. How many times do we have to hear "19 goals" before someone notes that he had 12 assists? If a career year for a player consists of 31 points, then that player likely isn't too offensively gifted.
Again, hurt since the beginning of the season. Not that it matters in the long run, because yes, 19 goals was a fluke season for LaRose. And if you're expecting him to be a goal-scorer in the NHL, you've been listening to Mike M a little too long.

He's an energy guy, through and through. The reason he's getting paid as much as he is (since I'm sure that ran through your head after reading the previous sentence), is because of his versatility. You've already admitted that there's no player in our system that can bring everything LaRose can to the team.

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Old
03-18-2010, 07:36 AM
  #136
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My mistake then. Never notice Dwyer out there.
Come on dude... what games are you watching?

or Dwyer must be doing something right then.... He is a great PK-er... Arguably, i find him better on PK that Chad Larose who simply runs around like chihuahua.

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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
He's an energy guy, through and through. The reason he's getting paid as much as he is (since I'm sure that ran through your head after reading the previous sentence), is because of his versatility. You've already admitted that there's no player in our system that can bring everything LaRose can to the team.
The reason he is getting paid as much is because JR has regular brain farts when it comes to giving contracts to the players who were loyal to the organization. This point has been proven on numerous occasions. Nobody wanted to sign Larose this summer, yet we had to overpay for him.

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Old
03-18-2010, 08:50 AM
  #137
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Id like to nominate this for nonsensical post of the day
bottom line is maurice is a bad nhl coach who cannot motivate and does not have the respect of the players to kick their tails into gear when they need it. . .

as for next year we are not too bad down the middle and that is where good teams are built staal-sutter-gleason-ward when thease guys can stay healthy--if we do not re-sign whitney we lose our most productive scoring winger from a team that has very little scoring from the wings. but i would really hope they use these last few games to gie boychuk osala samson tlusty bowman and anyone else who needs a look all the ice time they can take to give them a chance to step up.

would rather see gleason with the "c" -he would carry a heck of a lot more authority w/ the guys than maurice where effort is concerned

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Old
03-18-2010, 08:57 AM
  #138
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Any chance Mo gets the axe and bring in Dineen?

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03-18-2010, 09:05 AM
  #139
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Half the battle of competition in this lineup is monetary. If you make twice as much as the guy who is competing against you, he's twice as likely to keep his spot. Even if you outplay him by double, you'll always be "next year's option". Hell, it took Brind'Amour 120 games to skank up his spot in the lineup and he looked like he couldn't be trying any harder to screw up his legacy if he came out in a Scott Stevens jersey and started chirping fans.

What we have now is so much young talent that the front office doesn't know what to do with its loyalty. The standard procedure for keeping useless veterans around and begging them to produce is no longer applicable. We could, potentially, have open competition for ice time if we wanted to do so. Sadly, we do not.

There is no reason at all that Boychuk, Samson, Tlusty, McBain, and even a few guys like Dodge, Bowman, Blanchard, and Chaput shouldn't be getting at least SOME consideration to take over the full time roles of some of these overpaid stiffs that decided the season started in January. Instead, we get Erik Cole and Chad Larose going through the motions. Ray Whitney celebrating not being traded by doing jack squat. Eric Staal healing up from the Olympics on the company dime. Just a gaggle of players that can't be bothered to do their jobs right now.... because why should they push it right now? It's not like they're in danger of not being here when things get better. The young guys, when they DO get the rare chance to come in, have to produce EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. or the role is handed directly back to the default loafer it was taken from and the player is abruptly and discretely sent back to Albany with an attaboy and a promise to try them again next year.

In Carolina, your salary indicates your importance. Most everywhere else, your performance indicates your salary. If it doesn't, it's not for long.
great post-what this organization needs is a tutoring lesson from lou lamoriello in franchise management and player management and control-devils are always rock soild and canes are so schizo that we should be on meds-and the biggest influence lou provides is who he puts behind the bench and if things are not right that is where he kicks tails. just think for a sec on how many people you would rather see behind the bench besides paul maurice? there has got to be a daryl sutter lindy ruff type out there somewhere even mactavish--and a gm like brian burke would have shipped a lot of dead weight out of town by now whether he got much return or not-i really hope they give osala some ice time the next couple of weeks just so we heave someone on our side that will register a hit

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03-18-2010, 09:11 AM
  #140
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as for next year we are not too bad down the middle and that is where good teams are built

would rather see gleason with the "c" -he would carry a heck of a lot more authority w/ the guys than maurice where effort is concerned
#1 - They painfully thin down the middle as things stand now, and there's no one in Albany who is ready to step in. They need a #2/3 center a *lot* more than they need Whitney.

#2 - You're comparing Gleason as captain to Maurice as coach? Two different roles.

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03-18-2010, 09:13 AM
  #141
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How about those Bruins, think they'll pound Matt Cook tonight? this is the Bruins thread right? Sad the Canes rolled over in this game, time for the draft pick race to heat up again.

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Old
03-18-2010, 11:28 PM
  #142
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so.... why in the hell is Cole on the top line again?
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Because he's fast and generates scoring chances with his speed!
You win a cookie.

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Old
03-19-2010, 07:44 PM
  #143
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great post-what this organization needs is a tutoring lesson from lou lamoriello in franchise management and player management and control-devils are always rock soild and canes are so schizo that we should be on meds-and the biggest influence lou provides is who he puts behind the bench and if things are not right that is where he kicks tails. just think for a sec on how many people you would rather see behind the bench besides paul maurice? there has got to be a daryl sutter lindy ruff type out there somewhere even mactavish--and a gm like brian burke would have shipped a lot of dead weight out of town by now whether he got much return or not-i really hope they give osala some ice time the next couple of weeks just so we heave someone on our side that will register a hit
Daryl Sutter has won nothing. Lindy Ruff has won nothing. Craig Mactavish has won nothing.

Sooooooo...maybe you like them because you see them screaming and yelling and making faces on the bench? Is that it?

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:00 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
Daryl Sutter has won nothing. Lindy Ruff has won nothing. Craig Mactavish has won nothing.

Sooooooo...maybe you like them because you see them screaming and yelling and making faces on the bench? Is that it?
I think he was more so than less (I could be wrong) referring to a coach with a no nonesense approach, whether that be a Sutter like or Ruff like coach. A coach that when someone decides they're going to take a night off, that player will get a comfy seat on the bench for the duration of the game or a message sent either on the bench or in the room to wake up. That was one of the aspects I wanted in the new coach when many were calling for Lavi to be fired. I thought that guy would be Tom Rowe.

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03-20-2010, 02:52 PM
  #145
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I think he was more so than less (I could be wrong) referring to a coach with a no nonesense approach, whether that be a Sutter like or Ruff like coach. A coach that when someone decides they're going to take a night off, that player will get a comfy seat on the bench for the duration of the game or a message sent either on the bench or in the room to wake up. That was one of the aspects I wanted in the new coach when many were calling for Lavi to be fired. I thought that guy would be Tom Rowe.
The problem with that is that the Canes' best forward (Staal) and best defenseman (Pitkanen) are the two players that are most prone to taking nights off, unfortunately.

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Old
03-20-2010, 02:59 PM
  #146
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This game pisses me off even more now

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