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The highest paid role player in NHL history

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Old
03-18-2010, 12:25 AM
  #101
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Oh, and good point on Briere, not sure if I personally like that deal, but that's gotta be something DP should look at exploiting a bit more, low-salary/high-cap players from teams with cap trouble. Cap space is an asset like any other, and while Nashville may not have the budget, you do have the cap space, and that's something DP should look at getting some value out of, helping teams get cap relief in exchange for some lopsided asset movements.

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03-18-2010, 01:29 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So I can't use RFAs (eventhough you use RFAs in your comps), and I can't use 33 year old UFAS? You're really limiting the field here.

Langenbrunner may be 34, but he's not washed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure he was getting similar money when he was 30.

Even using the comps you pulled- Mike Fisher: "A Legwand clone"- I disagree. First off, Fisher has 21g, and 46 points this year, twice the goals of Legwand. Second, he's a battler, and the opposite of the perimeter player Legwand is. Still, he's slightly overpaid according to Ottawa fans.

Morrow? Sturm? Vermette? I'll give you more. Rene Borque just signed a 3.3m dollar extension that will take him into UFA. His production would be tops on our team. Patrick Sharp- 3.9m. Franzen-3.9. Samulesson-2.5m. Ribeiro- 5m.
I used a RFA because they are on the lower side of things. If the RFA is paid as much as the unrestricted then a team is getting ripped off or the unrestricted is at good value. Its like saying hey this pile of crap is worth the same as this pile of gold on my side, which would be amazing. On your side of the arguement its saying this pile of crap is less than the pile of gold, which is obvious.

Mike Fisher has a career high of 23 goals and 48 points. Legwand had 27 goals and 63 points. For Legwand to make .3m more a year for an extra 15 points seems more than reasonable. He hasnt lived up to that season, but has put up around the same numbers as Fisher except for this year.

Morrow was barely a 40 pt player when signing his contract, I understand he brings toughness, but still Legwand was looking like a much better player. Same thing with Sturm. Vermette is a bit closer and would likely be comparable in talent. Patrick Sharp is also not a huge upgrade over David Legwand. Franzen is making 5.5m for the next few years for having 1 season that was not as good as Legwand's best season. Samuelsson has a career high of 40 points, GMs don't spend on them at the age of 33. And Ill give you Ribiero as he is better offensively.

Im not saying Legwand is a steal, but he is not a severely overpaid player. For this year, yes he is a bit overpaid, but looking at the season he was signed after, Poile made a pretty good gamble and Legwand's contract is actually better than probably more than half of all the comparable contracts in the league, which has actually surprised me looking at them and then the stats of the players.

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03-18-2010, 11:09 AM
  #103
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[QUOTE=Webersmashpuck;24567327]I used a RFA because they are on the lower side of things. If the RFA is paid as much as the unrestricted then a team is getting ripped off or the unrestricted is at good value. Its like saying hey this pile of crap is worth the same as this pile of gold on my side, which would be amazing. On your side of the arguement its saying this pile of crap is less than the pile of gold, which is obvious.

Mike Fisher has a career high of 23 goals and 48 points. Legwand had 27 goals and 63 points. For Legwand to make .3m more a year for an extra 15 points seems more than reasonable. He hasnt lived up to that season, but has put up around the same numbers as Fisher except for this year.

Morrow was barely a 40 pt player when signing his contract, I understand he brings toughness, but still Legwand was looking like a much better player. Same thing with Sturm. Vermette is a bit closer and would likely be comparable in talent. Patrick Sharp is also not a huge upgrade over David Legwand. Franzen is making 5.5m for the next few years for having 1 season that was not as good as Legwand's best season. Samuelsson has a career high of 40 points, GMs don't spend on them at the age of 33. And Ill give you Ribiero as he is better offensively.

Im not saying Legwand is a steal, but he is not a severely overpaid player. For this year, yes he is a bit overpaid, but looking at the season he was signed after, Poile made a pretty good gamble and Legwand's contract is actually better than probably more than half of all the comparable contracts in the league, which has actually surprised me looking at them and then the stats of the players.[/QUOTE]

This sums it up well for me.

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03-18-2010, 11:10 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Vujtek View Post
I came to this thread thinking it was about Bobby Holik.

If you're that unhappy with Legwand just ship him to Oilers for Horcoff or to Rangers for Redden or to Leafs for Finger...
Yep.

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03-19-2010, 01:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck View Post
Patrick Sharp is also not a huge upgrade over David Legwand.
So is he an upgrade? I'd take Sharp for Legwand in a heartbeat.

Bottom line- I think you agree he's overapaid. So, there's really not much to disagree about here, excpept by how much he's overpaid.

Sure, he scored 27 goals in his contract year, but that doesn't really justify us paying him for 10 goals @ 4.5m this year. A good GM anticipates how a player is going to play in the future. With Legwand,he'd never scored over 20 goals until his contract year, after 8 years in the league. He'd never played with assertiveness in his game, until his contract year. Was it a safe bet he was going to continue a trend upward after 8 seasons in the NHL? Pretty risky IMO, and Poile decided to take that risk for 6 years.

I think Rene Borque is great comp for Legwand. Good "two way" player who had a semi-breakout year last year, and it's a having a really good year this year (his contract year). He gets 3.3m.

Kesler just signed a 6 year contract under 5m. He puts up points consistency in a secondary role. He wins battles all over the ice, a traits that means even more when the playoffs (or Olympics) come around. He's great defensively. That's the kind of two player who should be getting 5m, IMO.


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03-19-2010, 08:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So is he an upgrade? I'd take Sharp for Legwand in a heartbeat.

Bottom line- I think you agree he's overapaid. So, there's really not much to disagree about here, excpept by how much he's overpaid.

Sure, he scored 27 goals in his contract year, but that doesn't really justify us paying him for 10 goals @ 4.5m this year. A good GM anticipates how a player is going to play in the future. With Legwand,he'd never scored over 20 goals until his contract year, after 8 years in the league. He'd never played with assertiveness in his game, until his contract year. Was it a safe bet he wasn't going to continue a trend upward after 8 seasons in the NHL? Pretty risky IMO, and Poile decided to take that risk for 6 years.

I think Rene Borque is great comp for Legwand. Good "two way" player who had a semi-breakout year last year, and it's a having a really good year this year (his contract year). He gets 3.3m.

Kesler just signed a 6 year contract under 5m. He puts up points consistency in a secondary role. He wins battles all over the ice, a traits that means even more when the playoffs (or Olympics) come around. He's great defensively. That's the kind of two player who should be getting 5m, IMO.
Okay, I think we agree that Legwand is overpaid, but with the caveat that DP wasn't off his rocker when he signed Legwand to that contract. Also, while he is overpaid, it's not wildly so, and there are much worse contracts. Kesler, actually, is IMO underpaid when you think of the fact that he's got three-20 goal seasons, increasing assists each year, was a Selke nominee last year, hits, fights, plays with heart every night and is the face of next year's video game:-) But he made a point of saying you have to take a discount if you want to play on a winning team.

I know Burrows is not everyone's favorite player on this board, but his signing I think illustrates what the reality is in the new cap era. Legwand was a promising player who coming off a great season was signed to a big raise counter-balanced by the thought that if he kept improving into his prime, would cost a whole lot more than $4.5M. It was a calculated risk, and it's not looking like a great deal now, but it wasn't a reckless risk.

Burrows was undrafted, heck, was playing ball hockey not too long ago, and was in the middle of a half-decent season where he was for the first time showing he could do more than play on the fourth-line, and Mike Gillis took a big risk and gave him a $2 million a year, 4 year contract. I don't think even his biggest fans would have expected him to be at 32 goals now and pushing for 40.

In today's cap, you sign promising players through their prime, what was more risky, a 1st round pick with 27 goals (Legwand) or an undrafted ball-hockey player who cracked the 10-goal mark (Burrows)? At the time, you could argue the Legwand deal made more sense, but the Canucks just got lucky with Burrows (and Samuelsson, $2.5M for 30 goals...what?!)

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03-19-2010, 08:42 PM
  #107
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The other thing we're forgetting is who could we have signed to replace Legwand at the time?

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03-19-2010, 09:50 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So is he an upgrade? I'd take Sharp for Legwand in a heartbeat.

Bottom line- I think you agree he's overapaid. So, there's really not much to disagree about here, excpept by how much he's overpaid.

Sure, he scored 27 goals in his contract year, but that doesn't really justify us paying him for 10 goals @ 4.5m this year. A good GM anticipates how a player is going to play in the future. With Legwand,he'd never scored over 20 goals until his contract year, after 8 years in the league. He'd never played with assertiveness in his game, until his contract year. Was it a safe bet he wasn't going to continue a trend upward after 8 seasons in the NHL? Pretty risky IMO, and Poile decided to take that risk for 6 years.

I think Rene Borque is great comp for Legwand. Good "two way" player who had a semi-breakout year last year, and it's a having a really good year this year (his contract year). He gets 3.3m.

Kesler just signed a 6 year contract under 5m. He puts up points consistency in a secondary role. He wins battles all over the ice, a traits that means even more when the playoffs (or Olympics) come around. He's great defensively. That's the kind of two player who should be getting 5m, IMO.
First let me preface by saying I agree and I think most would agree legwand is overpaid. I would say he is overpaid by 1-1.5 million per year. Most overpaid role player in history though? That's laughable. (I realize you didn't start the thread) However I see some major flaws in your arguments.


You say we are paying Legwand 4.5 a year for 10 goals when in reality since he signed his contract he's been closer to 20 goals per year.

You are comparing guys like Patrick Sharp and Rene Bourque to Legwand. You are saying Bourque is a good two way player and comparing his salary to Leggy's when in reality you can't compare a great 2 way center to a good two way winger. Centers have much more responsibility in their two way play. A good defensively responsible winger could never have the defensive impact that a good defensively responsible center.

As much as it sucks you go back to that summer and that was probably around the going rate for Leggy. UFA's were getting big time overpaid left and right that summer. Yes we didn't get a discount from him.

Also, it's fair to factor in the fact that he is playing on a shutdown line this season. Legwand is not a line carrier. He can produce though when he plays with talent.

So in Conclusion Yes he is overpaid but he isn't overpaid HUGELY. My biggest beef is the contract length but I'm not going to cry over spilt milk. What's done is done.

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03-20-2010, 10:06 AM
  #109
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The other thing we're forgetting is who could we have signed to replace Legwand at the time?


patrik stefan and rico fata

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03-20-2010, 10:13 AM
  #110
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patrik stefan and rico fata
I can't tell if your joking or being serious...

As a big Rico Fata fan in the AHL (probably as fast a skater as I've ever seen - rivaling Mike Gartner), Fata had his limitations in the NHL and is now appropriately out of the league. Stefan was a bust and too is now out of the league. Stefan's main issue stemmed from a lack of work ethic, that ultimately lead to almost all of his issues I can remember.

I'm pretty sure you were kidding, but if not...

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03-20-2010, 03:16 PM
  #111
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I can't tell if your joking or being serious...

As a big Rico Fata fan in the AHL (probably as fast a skater as I've ever seen - rivaling Mike Gartner), Fata had his limitations in the NHL and is now appropriately out of the league. Stefan was a bust and too is now out of the league. Stefan's main issue stemmed from a lack of work ethic, that ultimately lead to almost all of his issues I can remember.

I'm pretty sure you were kidding, but if not...
i was. but they were, and still are available i would imagine

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03-20-2010, 11:55 PM
  #112
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Trotz's take...

Quote:
David Legwand hasn’t scored in 29 games going into tonight’s contest, but Trotz points out that Legwand’s 36 points this season (10 goals, 26 assists) are still only 10 points behind team leader Martin Erat. Legwand has spent most of the season on a shutdown checking line with Jerred Smithson and Joel Ward.

``Would I like to see him score a little more?’’ Trotz said. "Absolutely. He’s an offensive player. I always say with David that I don’t mind if he would express himself offensively -- driving the net when he has the opportunity, shooting with authority when he gets the opportunity."

"But his overall game … every night, he’s played against some of the top people for 71 games now and has done a pretty good job. There are times, just like any player, he’s not on top of his game. But for the most part, he can manage his game even when he’s not on top of it."

"It’s only the goals (that have been a shortcoming). His face-offs have been pretty good, a lot of facets of his game have been pretty solid. So there’s one area he can improve on, no question. But at the same time, if you take 10 facets of his game, probably eight of them are pretty decent now."
http://blogs.tennessean.com/predator...-blue-jackets/


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03-21-2010, 05:58 AM
  #113
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You just can't expect much with the linemates. It really is that simple.

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03-21-2010, 09:32 AM
  #114
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You just can't expect much with the linemates. It really is that simple.
Same excuse, different year.

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03-21-2010, 03:13 PM
  #115
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Same excuse, different year.
Does that make it less true, though? Maybe it's the same excuse because it's the same problem, not enough resources to bag another scorer, so it's a matter of waiting till the prospects hatch.

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03-21-2010, 04:39 PM
  #116
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So adding Horcoff who is paid a million more a year is the answer? 11 goals, 17 assists and a -26 in 63 games. Legwand, 10 goals, 25 assists and a -1 in 69 games. You sure you'd make that deal?
as an oil fan i would

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03-21-2010, 07:04 PM
  #117
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Same excuse, different year.
Is it though? Legwand was outstanding offensively with Paul Kariya on his line. And even with usually a tag-a-long forward each year on his line, he has came close or topped 20 goals nearly every year since 2002-2003. This year is the first healthy year where he hasn't produced hardly at all offensively. It also happens to be the year where we have arguably one of the least offensively talented forwards in our history, playing as his linemate in Smithson. Smithson is a decent hockey player, but lets face it, he is a 4th line forward/pk specialist. His biggest weaknesses: He can't accept a pass, and he can't shoot......Great for playmakers. Ward is a 15 goal third line defensive forward. He is one of the worst skaters on the team. These three forwards do not fit at all together offensively, but they are very good together defensively.

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03-21-2010, 09:28 PM
  #118
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Is it though? Legwand was outstanding offensively with Paul Kariya on his line. And even with usually a tag-a-long forward each year on his line, he has came close or topped 20 goals nearly every year since 2002-2003. This year is the first healthy year where he hasn't produced hardly at all offensively. It also happens to be the year where we have arguably one of the least offensively talented forwards in our history, playing as his linemate in Smithson. Smithson is a decent hockey player, but lets face it, he is a 4th line forward/pk specialist. His biggest weaknesses: He can't accept a pass, and he can't shoot......Great for playmakers. Ward is a 15 goal third line defensive forward. He is one of the worst skaters on the team. These three forwards do not fit at all together offensively, but they are very good together defensively.
In 2005-06 Legwand had 7 goals in 44 games playing with Kariya. 18min a game / 4 minutes of PP time. That's not outstanding, it's flat-out bad. 13 goal pace with prime ice-time.

He did better the next year, scoring 27. That's pretty good, but it's not outstanding offensively. It also happened to be his contract year. His prize is 32 million. Krivokrasov scored 26 goals once with less talented linemates.

"And even with usually a tag-a-long forward each year on his line, he has came close or topped 20 goals nearly every year since 2002-2003."

He's scored over 20 goals once in his career, and it happened to be his UFA contract year. He was also played with much more assertiveness that year.

There is a reason he doesn't see an steady role on offensive anymore-- because he doesn't assert himeslf in the offensive zone, he doesn't win the battles, and he doesn't create enough offense.

I watch Boyd play and you the difference in styles. A guy that's pushing to win hockey games. A guy that's playing with desperation in his game. TA guy that's going to the dirty areas and taking a beating. The only desperation we've seen from Legwand is when his contract is running out. He's not good enough offensively to justify be a perimiter offensive player.


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03-21-2010, 09:41 PM
  #119
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I agree with most of what Trotz had to say. However, one of the missing faucets happens to be a pretty important on for NHL forwards- creating offense. The other is also important-- playing with assertiveness.

Trotz is obviously not addressing the contract though. He's got "8 faucets." But so do Goc and Ward.

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03-21-2010, 09:43 PM
  #120
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Dulzhok,

Your vehement hate for Legwand has been well-documented. From second hand bar stories to thread after thread after thread of ripping him, I think we all get it. However, even you should realize that you are downplaying Legwand's goal-scoring numbers.

02-03, 17 goals in 64 games played <----Arguably our best forward here. When he went down, we tanked.
03-04 17 goals in 82 games played
05-06, 7 goals in 44 games played, but 19 assists. The 26 in 44 isn't as bad as it appears. Additionally, he wasn't always paired with Kariya.....that really didn't happen until the following year full time.
06-07, 27 goals in 78 games played
07-08, 15 goals in 65 games played
08-09, 20 goals in 72 games played
09-10, 10 goals in 73 games

Really, when you look at it, he has been scoring at the clip of a 20 goal scorer in every year but 09-10/05-06. The 2005-2006 season was only 44 games long, and I argue that he was a positive player in that stretch. He finished the season strong after the injury that cost him the entire middle portion of the season.....This year....for goodness sake, just look at his linemates. There is a reason he is scoring at a clip less than ANY YEAR in his career. He was scoring more at 19 than he is this year, and it isn't due to poor play.....it is due to his designated role on this team this year and his linemates. Anybody would struggle to score with these linemates, they simply do not mesh together offensively. Legwand and Ward paired with an adequate winger, could be productive. However, when you add in a guy that can't create, shoot, or receive a pass (i.e. Smithson).....it completely kills that tandem.

Legwand isn't a superstar, but he has shown that he is a 20 goal guy. The numbers bear that out. 5 of his last 7 seasons he has been over 20, on pace for 20, or right around 20. The other two seasons I have already discussed.....

I will agree with the assertiveness comment, but I will qualify it to some degree. In the 06-07 year, he was able to do more offensively because he finally had capable linemates, who created space for him offensively, and he was not forced to play a strictly democratic role. For the most part, Legwand has not been put in roles to play as an offensive dynamo. You know just as well as I do that he is the designated shut-down centerman. His number 1 objective has always been defense, offense is secondary. 2006-2007 was an outlier because it was the one time, other than when he was tried at wing, that Legwand was not placed into primarily a defensive role within our offense


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03-21-2010, 09:56 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
In 2005-06 Legwand had 7 goals in 44 games playing with Kariya. 18min a game / 4 minutes of PP time. That's not outstanding, it's flat-out bad. 13 goal pace with prime ice-time.

He did better the next year, scoring 27. That's pretty good, but it's not outstanding offensively. It also happened to be his contract year. His prize is 32 million. Krivokrasov scored 26 goals once with less talented linemates.
Legwand's numbers in the '05-'06 season were fantastic considering the fact that he tore his ACL on December 8th, had arthroscopic surgery on December 9th (knowing that it would not fix the problem and he would need more surgery after the season), missed 32 games, and battled all the way back into the lineup on February 22nd to bolster the center depth and help propel us into the playoffs...

Criticizing Legwand for his numbers that season is beyond imaginable...the guy knew that the team didn't have the depth to overcome his injury and did everything he could to get back into the lineup as soon as possible. Once back, he played his tail off and was great at both ends of the ice (playing more of a supporting role in the offensive end and was a beast on defense) and to top everything off, the guy was battling through so much pain that he had to sit on a stool to shower after every game and wore a brace literally 24 hours a day outside the arena just to make sure he was in the lineup for the Predators on a nightly basis...

To me, Legwand is the definition of "The Predator Way"...hard-nosed, detailed oriented, and never outworked...

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03-21-2010, 10:05 PM
  #122
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However, even you should realize that you are downplaying Legwand's goal-scoring numbers.
There's nothing to up-play there. He's had one decent offensive season, and it happened to be his contract year. The years he's had "close" to 20 goals, he was also getting plenty of offensive ice time. 13-20 goals with good ice-time is below average. Kjellbeg did it. Krivo did it. Johnasson did it. Walker did it. And they all probably didn't belong there.

This year, I think he's rightfully been moved to a checking role.

Hoenstly, I think that's when you see the a player's true offensive abilities to come to surface, when you take away the PP time and take away more talented linmates. For example Erat, when he was moved with Goc and Tootoo, he ups his game and created offense.

I don't hate Legwand. I think he's a checking-line center that's overpaid by 1.5-2 million, and gave us his best effort in his contract year. The reason I would be willing to give him 2-3 million is because of his defense play.

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03-21-2010, 10:52 PM
  #123
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I'd be higher on Legwand if his faceoff percentages were better. Trotz mentions his faceoffs as being good, but he is just a bit below 50%. Which is about what he is as a highly paid center, a bit below average.

Looking at the top teams, many of them have one and sometimes two guys taking a lot of draws that have given them a big amount more draw wins over the course of a season. 55% over a thousand face-offs is a hundred more wins over the other team, versus 50%. Whereas our top guys Arnott and Leggy just lose a few more then they win. No edge. That's why I look forward to the days of Wilson at center. He will win draws more than he loses or work at it until he can. Legwand has usually been around fifty or a tiny bit above. But he's not really great at it which is too bad for a "defensive" center.

I agree about the guts that Legwand has shown over his career in being willing to do what it takes to play when hurt. He's been a gamer. I also think that hearing him mention the shutdown role thing a few times this year that he's not totally loving being relegated to only that role. I'm sure he'd like to play wide open with skilled linemates and put up more points. But he's doing what he's asked, for the team. He'll help us win in the playoffs. But what choice does Trotz have. He tried a more skilled winger with Erat, and that combo killed off Erat's production as well. So it is what it is, and Legwand's role from here on is a shutdown man.


Last edited by OpenWheel: 03-21-2010 at 11:08 PM.
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03-21-2010, 11:08 PM
  #124
PredsV82
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Slake, you made the right call closing the Poile thread, I move that you close this one too. the dead horses are starting to stink up the joint.

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03-22-2010, 02:06 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Slake, you made the right call closing the Poile thread, I move that you close this one too. the dead horses are starting to stink up the joint.
You've posted what 5 times in here? Of course, your argument is the best, and should end the discussion.

I tried to resist being sucked into another Legwand talk, but I hear things like Legwand has single handily won us 10 games this year, and he's been our MVP this year, and I gotta strongly disagree.

He's the most-loved & hated Predator in history.

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