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Tortorella wants to be Rangers dictator

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Old
03-20-2010, 01:23 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Tortorella is putting square pegs in round holes because Sather gave him nothing but square pegs to work with.
Good coaches figure out how to win with what they have. The Rangers had a certain kind of player because of the system they were using and the type of players they have drafted and brought in. The key players were those who responded to Renney's style. One of the troubling things about Tortarella is that he appears to be able to only coach one way -- he certainly is not a very good bench coach and his style is ill suited for a lot of the players on the team. I haven't seen an ability of the coach to adjust his style. So the question becomes are you going to build around the coach or build around the core of players yo have? I think I know the answer to that one.

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03-20-2010, 01:38 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Good coaches figure out how to win with what they have. The Rangers had a certain kind of player because of the system they were using and the type of players they have drafted and brought in. The key players were those who responded to Renney's style. One of the troubling things about Tortarella is that he appears to be able to only coach one way -- he certainly is not a very good bench coach and his style is ill suited for a lot of the players on the team. I haven't seen an ability of the coach to adjust his style. So the question becomes are you going to build around the coach or build around the core of players yo have? I think I know the answer to that one.
Good post, and re the bolded part, that was exactly my point in one of my posts on the previous page.

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03-20-2010, 04:56 PM
  #153
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The problem with the above statements are that the core still has yet to be established on this team.

With that being said, you build around the coach as far as I am concerned.

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03-20-2010, 04:59 PM
  #154
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With that being said, you build around the coach as far as I am concerned.
It depends on who it is. With this one, no.

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03-20-2010, 05:03 PM
  #155
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It depends on who it is. With this one, no.
True.

But knowing who this GM is, here I say yes.

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03-20-2010, 07:13 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
If Renney made Jagr overachieve, then how come almost every other star who came to the Rangers under him underachieved?
such as?

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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Same reason Gionta had 48 goals that year and Cheechoo scored 56 goals that year. Scoring was up across the league in 2005-06 because the players were adjusting to the post-lockout rules.
Jagr's production went up 66% from the previous season. was league scoring up 66%?

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Gomez scored 33 goals that season, clearly a fluke because he's never gotten close to scoring that many in his career, and unfortunately I think that career year influenced Sather to go hard after Gomez.
how is this relevant to anything?

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03-20-2010, 07:21 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
such as?


Jagr's production went up 66% from the previous season. was league scoring up 66%?


how is this relevant to anything?
Your the one who made the outrageous claim stating Renney made Jagr overachieve with nothing to back that up, so you should be proving your case, not me.

So you should be the one to list who else Renney was able to make overachieve. I'd be shocked if you could get more then one person besides for Nylander, Straka and Rozy who all directly benefited from Jagrs monster season.


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03-20-2010, 07:41 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Your the one who made the outrageous claim stating Renney made Jagr overachieve with nothing to back that up, so you should be proving your case, not me.

So you should be the one to list who else Renney was able to make overachieve. I'd be shocked if you could get more then one person besides for Nylander, Straka and Rozy who all directly benefited from Jagrs monster season.
so I take it you have no answer?

Sean Avery is an obvious one. Dan Girardi is another off the top of my head.

I didn't say that Renney was the reason Jagr overachieved, anyways. He was a big part, however, in Jagr achieving a level of play he hadn't seen in 7 years though.

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03-20-2010, 07:56 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
so I take it you have no answer?

Sean Avery is an obvious one. Dan Girardi is another off the top of my head.

I didn't say that Renney was the reason Jagr overachieved, anyways. He was a big part, however, in Jagr achieving a level of play he hadn't seen in 7 years though.
Dan Girardi? He had 4 goals last season, really reaching huh? I'll give you Avery.

You want my answer?

Matt Cullen - Worst season since the lockup with the Rangers
Adam Hall - After putting up 3 respectable 13, 15, 14 goal seasons, came to the Rangers and just scored 4 goals in 50 games. Turning point in his career that he never recovered from.
Scott Gomez - First time in 6 years he couldnt hit the 60 point plateau last season.
Chris Drury - Totally different player on Renney. Points dropped obviously.
Nikolai Zherdev - Underachieved almost every other game, was never able to get the most from him.
Marcus Naslund - Underachieved, unmotivated almost every other game
Wade Redden - Points dropped more then 33% under Renney, was brutal until Torts took over and he almost looked like a defenseman again.

Its a lot easier coming up with players who underachieved under Renney then it is who overachieved.

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03-20-2010, 08:10 PM
  #160
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I don't know why I'm continuing this conversation.... but here goes:

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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Dan Girardi? He had 4 goals last season, really reaching huh?
he is a defenseman, remember. and I think he was a lot stronger defensively under Renney.

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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Matt Cullen - Worst season since the lockup with the Rangers
ok, sure. It`s called a lock-out though.

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Adam Hall - After putting up 3 respectable 13, 15, 14 goal seasons, came to the Rangers and just scored 4 goals in 50 games. Turning point in his career that he never recovered from.
haha, that's one way to look at it. maybe he just wasn't that good.

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Chris Drury - Totally different player on Renney. Points dropped obviously.
shenanigans. Drury's production under Renney was right on line with his career, except the Buffalo years which were anomalies. but he's really taken off under Torts...

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Nikolai Zherdev - Underachieved almost every other game, was never able to get the most from him.
you are describing every coach, ever. he was worse under Tortorella than under Renney.

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Marcus Naslund - Underachieved, unmotivated almost every other game
fading career. again, totally disappeared under Tortorella.

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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Wade Redden - Points dropped more then 33% under Renney, was brutal until Torts took over and he almost looked like a defenseman again.
he's been on the decline for a while now. he never played well under Tortorella, that's something that was invented by people who really wanted to see it. and now everyone agrees he sucks.

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03-20-2010, 08:15 PM
  #161
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I don't agree with Brooks on dictatorship. I mean every one knew that Torts is going to be jerk. Most decided to put up with him, assuming he will get us in playoffs and further. Now when it becomes not a real thing, Torts has to pay. He wanted to be Mussolini obviously from day one. I don't see why Brooks finds it surprising. He must not be sincere.

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03-20-2010, 08:17 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I don't know why I'm continuing this conversation.... but here goes:


he is a defenseman, remember. and I think he was a lot stronger defensively under Renney.


ok, sure. It`s called a lock-out though.


haha, that's one way to look at it. maybe he just wasn't that good.


shenanigans. Drury's production under Renney was right on line with his career, except the Buffalo years which were anomalies. but he's really taken off under Torts...


you are describing every coach, ever. he was worse under Tortorella than under Renney.


fading career. again, totally disappeared under Tortorella.


he's been on the decline for a while now. he never played well under Tortorella, that's something that was invented by people who really wanted to see it. and now everyone agrees he sucks.
You've got an answer for everything, except the reason why you believe Jagr overachieved with Renney even though you haven't provided any real proof of Renney ever making anyone else overachieve.

You got called out on your claim, dont try to deflect away from it now that you can't figure anything out to back it up.

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03-20-2010, 08:26 PM
  #163
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how did Jagr over-achieve with Renney? The stars were aligned. He had a season in which he played less than he had ever played, so he rested. The rules of the game changed. He was reunited with two guys, Nylander and Straka, with whom he's had success in the past and each of whom actually stayed healthy the entire season. Additionally, he was out there a lot with Rozsival, another player he knew well.

Was there any other real magic except Renney just let them play their game, despite differences regarding how the PP was run? Give credit, I guess, to Renney for recognizing the obvious. Of course if you give credit for that then one must question how Jagr fell off the face of the earth in year 3, when things were a bit different and there was some tinkering by the coach, such as toying with his centerman and not finding a group of five that made sense on the PP, ultimately leading to Jagr's PP time being reduced.

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03-20-2010, 08:28 PM
  #164
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how did Jagr over-achieve with Renney? The stars were aligned. He had a season in which he played less than he had ever played, so he rested. The rules of the game changed. He was reunited with two guys, Nylander and Straka, with whom he's had success in the past and each of whom actually stayed healthy the entire season. Additionally, he was out there a lot with Rozsival, another player he knew well.

Was there any other real magic except Renney just let them play their game, despite differences regarding how the PP was run? Give credit, I guess, to Renney for recognizing the obvious. Of course if you give credit for that then one must question how Jagr fell off the face of the earth in year 3, when things were a bit different and there was some tinkering by the coach, such as toying with his centerman and not finding a group of five that made sense on the PP, ultimately leading to Jagr's PP time being reduced.
Great post Fletch, pretty much summed up my thoughts on the whole thing.

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03-20-2010, 08:40 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Matt Cullen - Worst season since the lockup with the Rangers
Matt Cullen had a good year here. That year, Cullen spoke about the fact that playing for the Rangers required some adjustment on his part, both on the ice -- he was used as a third-line center more than ever before in his career -- and off the ice -- in making a move to a big city. Despite that, though, he scored 16 goals -- which to that point in his career was his third-highest total, and is more than he has this season -- added 25 assists, was an even player, and a very good PKer. He also played his best hockey late in the season and in the playoffs.

Quote:
Adam Hall - After putting up 3 respectable 13, 15, 14 goal seasons, came to the Rangers and just scored 4 goals in 50 games. Turning point in his career that he never recovered from.
This is just ridiculous. Yeah, Renney ruined his career. If not for Renney, he would have 15 goals rather than 5 this year.

Quote:
Scott Gomez - First time in 6 years he couldnt hit the 60 point plateau last season.
The year before he came to the Rangers, he had 60 points. In his final season with the Rangers, he had 58 points. You're right, huge difference. By the way, he has 51 points this season.

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Chris Drury - Totally different player on Renney. Points dropped obviously.
Is this the same Chris Drury who had 20+ goal season in his first two seasons with the Rangers, and this season -- his first full season under Tortorella -- has 11 goals?

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Nikolai Zherdev - Underachieved almost every other game, was never able to get the most from him.
And this is the Nik Zherdev who disappeared at the end of the season and scored 0 goals in the playoffs under John Tortorella?

Quote:
Marcus Naslund - Underachieved, unmotivated almost every other game
Scoring 20+ goals at 35 years old must be easier than I thought.

Quote:
Wade Redden - Points dropped more then 33% under Renney, was brutal until Torts took over and he almost looked like a defenseman again.
Yep, Redden was bad because of Renney.

Quote:
Its a lot easier coming up with players who underachieved under Renney then it is who overachieved.
Yup. Good list...


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 03-20-2010 at 10:32 PM.
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Old
03-20-2010, 09:53 PM
  #166
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on another note, for those trying to compare Renney to Torts, I think it's safer not to do so. The teams that each coached last season were not comparable, albeit a similar team. Further, the competition they faced was not the same competition. I think it is fair to say, however, that the team Torts took over to coach had given up on Renney and since you can't get rid of the players (because nobody wanted them), you can only replace a coach (very unfair to a guy like Renney). In the end many will judge Renney as the coach who failed to get that team to the playoffs and Torts as the guy who took them over the finish line, and I'd say that's not entirely the case. There are good arguments on both side of the fence.

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03-20-2010, 11:48 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Dan Girardi? He had 4 goals last season, really reaching huh? I'll give you Avery.

You want my answer?

Matt Cullen - Worst season since the lockup with the Rangers
Adam Hall - After putting up 3 respectable 13, 15, 14 goal seasons, came to the Rangers and just scored 4 goals in 50 games. Turning point in his career that he never recovered from.
Scott Gomez - First time in 6 years he couldnt hit the 60 point plateau last season.
Chris Drury - Totally different player on Renney. Points dropped obviously.
Nikolai Zherdev - Underachieved almost every other game, was never able to get the most from him.
Marcus Naslund - Underachieved, unmotivated almost every other game
Wade Redden - Points dropped more then 33% under Renney, was brutal until Torts took over and he almost looked like a defenseman again.

Its a lot easier coming up with players who underachieved under Renney then it is who overachieved.
Very selective.

Gomez, Drury and Zherdev certainly didn't thrive after Renney was gone. And Redden has been declining every year since the lockout. Naslund played one year and retired.

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03-21-2010, 09:48 AM
  #168
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Just jumpin in here and don't know if this has been discussed...

but don't you think a big part of the reason for Jagr's 05-06 season had a lot to do with the new rules coming out of the lockout and the fact that he had tons more room to work and there wasn't as much clutching and grabbing being called?

Also...he played nowhere close to 82+ games the year before...so he was probably more rested than he had been in a decade...

just some food for thought...

anyway...i'm off to Boston for the game...LGR!!!

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03-21-2010, 12:11 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
such as?


Jagr's production went up 66% from the previous season. was league scoring up 66%?


how is this relevant to anything?
It's pretty obvious, 4 years after the first post-lockout season, that scoring was up that year in comparison to the seasons that followed. I was using Gomez as another example of this phenomenon. Prucha could be another example as well, as he scored 30 goals that year and didn't come close to those numbers again.

Jagr scored 54 goals in 2005-06 and then scored only 30 goals the following season. Should we give Renney credit for Jagr underachieving in the 2006-07 season then? The 2005-06 season is really an anomaly in scoring, with an average of over 6 goals being socred per game. There were certainly outside factors, other than Renney, that resulted in Jagr's 123 point season.

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03-21-2010, 01:25 PM
  #170
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****.
Answer the question already. HOW. You have nothing backing anything up. If Renney had a history of making players overachieve you might have something, but he doesn't.

Back up what you say or just admit you pulled that out of nowhere to tried to put Renney on some sort of pedestal that he wasn't on.

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03-21-2010, 02:10 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Good coaches figure out how to win with what they have. The Rangers had a certain kind of player because of the system they were using and the type of players they have drafted and brought in. The key players were those who responded to Renney's style. One of the troubling things about Tortarella is that he appears to be able to only coach one way -- he certainly is not a very good bench coach and his style is ill suited for a lot of the players on the team. I haven't seen an ability of the coach to adjust his style. So the question becomes are you going to build around the coach or build around the core of players yo have? I think I know the answer to that one.
No coach is good enough to win with a team that simply isn't good enough to win. While you might be right that the thinking part of the game is not Tortorella's strong suit (and I personally agree), the question you ask at the end there is not the question that needs to be asked.

You can't build around a coach in today's NHL where coaching changes are so, so common. On the other hand, you can't build around the core of players you have when the core of players you have isn't good enough to be built around.

What this team needs is to modify the core of players. We have part of the core, but we're still missing 2-3 major pieces that a core of a good team needs to be made of.

Also, in response to this Renney-Jagr nonsense, the only way Renney helped Jagr to "overachieve" is that he simply let Jagr do whatever he wanted, most of the time (and this is coming from a Renney defender). The increase in scoring in 05-06 is the biggest reason Jagr had such a great season.

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03-21-2010, 04:01 PM
  #172
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Also, in response to this Renney-Jagr nonsense, the only way Renney helped Jagr to "overachieve" is that he simply let Jagr do whatever he wanted, most of the time
exactly. you say it like it's a bad thing.

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The increase in scoring in 05-06 is the biggest reason Jagr had such a great season.
League scoring was up 20%, Jagr's scoring was up 66%, so I'm not really buying that.

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Answer the question already. HOW. You have nothing backing anything up. If Renney had a history of making players overachieve you might have something, but he doesn't.

Back up what you say or just admit you pulled that out of nowhere to tried to put Renney on some sort of pedestal that he wasn't on.
I'm not sure what I'm backing up. You keep using the word overachieve, not me. Renney was absolutely a big factor in Jagr's success, though. what am I basing that on is watching Jagr under Renney vs. under Cassidy, and Jagr praising Renney in the press daily. that may not be concrete enough for you, but it beats the hell out of what you're giving me.


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There were certainly outside factors, other than Renney, that resulted in Jagr's 123 point season.
of course, but Renney was obviously a factor.

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03-21-2010, 05:17 PM
  #173
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habs fan here. Empathy is what I feel for you guys. Tortorella has been getting on drury's, avery's, dubinsky's back ... he has openly challenged them in the media... and made incidents out of honest quotes from players who care about your team. A lot of ''experts'' are saying torts has lost the team ... and as much as we don't want to base our judgement on that alone, there are sympthoms that are adding weight to those claims.

as for brooks... can you blame him for hating torts? after this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZECirerTHc

torts getting mad over him started everything... it means he ''cared'' about what brooks wrote ... and that had to be stupid on his part, the door was wide open. If you are going to bash your players and journalists like you're the king of the world, you better win ...

can't understand anybody defending torts ... but thats from an outside perspective.

was in NYC last night ... it was my 1rst time... fell in love with the city. people were amazing.

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03-21-2010, 05:56 PM
  #174
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habs fan here. Empathy is what I feel for you guys. Tortorella has been getting on drury's, avery's, dubinsky's back ... he has openly challenged them in the media... and made incidents out of honest quotes from players who care about your team. A lot of ''experts'' are saying torts has lost the team ... and as much as we don't want to base our judgement on that alone, there are sympthoms that are adding weight to those claims.

as for brooks... can you blame him for hating torts? after this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZECirerTHc

torts getting mad over him started everything... it means he ''cared'' about what brooks wrote ... and that had to be stupid on his part, the door was wide open. If you are going to bash your players and journalists like you're the king of the world, you better win ...

can't understand anybody defending torts ... but thats from an outside perspective.

was in NYC last night ... it was my 1rst time... fell in love with the city. people were amazing.
Excellent post, and welcome to NYC

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03-21-2010, 06:37 PM
  #175
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Nobody has progressed under Torts. Many have regressed. I know he doesn't have much to work with, but the team clearly doesn't like him and don't play as hard as they possibly can. His act has also worn thin. He's a total tool. I wouldn't be upset if he got fired, but Sather should not get another opportunity to name a new head coach. That would be 6 including himself.

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