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Old
03-23-2010, 10:25 AM
  #1
richieformvp
 
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Could You Be Patient

If this season continues to spiral down the tur-let and the Flyers decided to actually re-build instead of patch holes and re-tool, could you be patient enough to let it play it out over a 3-5 year period. I really think this is the only way to do it right.

First, Snider needs to sell his remaining share in the team. The karma under him has gotten worse each year since 1975 and it won't get any better
Second, do whatever it takes to shed some of these dead weight contracts .. Briere, Gagne and Hartnell come right to mind ..even if you have to pay some of the salary and only get middle round draft picks for them. Load up on draft picks.
Third, sign Michael Leighton to a 2-3 year deal and let him be the bridge to one of the young goalies, currently in the organization (Backlund, Morrisson, Gunnarsson) or draft one this year.
Fourth .. start to build by giving young players currently on the team bigger roles .. Giroux, JVR, Coburn, Parent and Carle ...while promoting some younger guys like Legein, Matsumoto and Maroon to see what you have in the minor leagues.
Last, get as far under the cap as you can while the young guys develop, so you are in position to sign the needed pieces when the team is ready to compete.

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03-23-2010, 10:31 AM
  #2
Opus
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This team in it's current state is NOT going to rebuild.

...nor is Snider (aside from death) going to leave the team.


Give your head a shake.

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03-23-2010, 10:31 AM
  #3
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Recipe for disaster without the tanking skills or the tanking picks.

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03-23-2010, 10:32 AM
  #4
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This team has a good mix of veteran and young talent. I think you rebuild when you don't have much young talent and your vets can't do ****. You don't start a rebuild when you have Giroux, JVR, Richards, Carter all there and young. Gagne will be fine next year, book it. Hartnell will probably bounce back too.

Briere is the one guy who I would try to exchange for a 2nd or 3rd round pick or a Defensive prospect with some size. Let Kimmo and Pronger play out their deals. They don't seem to be losing a step yet in my opinion. At the start of the year all they needed was a coach. Now all they need is a goalie.

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03-23-2010, 11:03 AM
  #5
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You forgot a goalie aswell, Joacim Ericsson. He broke Ed Belfours former shut-out record in Leksand this season and has the chance to bring them up tot he SEL now.

And why rebuild when we have a young core and when we have no draft picks. This team can win.


Last edited by Garneij: 03-23-2010 at 11:20 AM.
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03-23-2010, 11:16 AM
  #6
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They just gave up 3 first round picks(including sbisa) for Pronger. there is no way they will rebuild nor should they unless someone comes to them in the summer and offers 3 first rounders to take him and his crazy contract.
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03-23-2010, 11:18 AM
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"We don't know what re-building is."

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03-23-2010, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
"We don't know what re-building is."
"What can you do?"

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03-23-2010, 11:22 AM
  #9
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If they do the following, they will be in better shape next season:

1. Get a legit #1 goalie. Not the cheapest available but a guy who is decent and can be signed at a decent price.
2. Get rid of dead weight. Hartnell, Coburn, Parent would be my 3 targets.
3. Fire the medical staff, how many times have we had players lost to injury because McCrossin and Co. aren't doing the right thing.

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03-23-2010, 11:22 AM
  #10
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I would, as I'm watching my Chiefs do the same thing, but I don't see it happening. Holmgren is still going to try and put the square peg in the circle no matter what

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03-23-2010, 11:25 AM
  #11
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Why do people keep mentioning Coburn as a guy to get rid of to shed salary? The guy is making next to nothing and unless he demands big money why not sign him for another 3 years? He's still young and he will get better, for a cheap price, why not hope we get a steal?
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03-23-2010, 11:29 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
"We don't know what re-building is."
Wouldn't matter if we did. This team isn't in a "rebuild" position.

We can't tank, because we don't have our draft picks to reap the rewards for sucking. The only guys who we could move out for good returns, you don't move if you're rebuilding (Carter, Richards, Giorux, JVR, etc). The players we'd like to move to clear cap space or gain assets aren't in market demand or have no-trade clauses.

Seriously, the term "rebuild" shouldn't even be mentioned on these boards at this time. The time to rebuild was after the "lost" season. We didn't do it then, and we certainly aren't in a position to do it now.

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03-23-2010, 11:30 AM
  #13
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To answer the question, personally, I can be patient if that's the clear direction they wanted to take. The gunslinger, guns-a-blazin' way of doing things is clearly a thing of the past. All 3 teams who dealt their 1st round draft pick before the start of the season, 2 of them aren't going to make the playoffs, and there's eerily decent chance we could be a third. It's just not how things are done anymore.

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03-23-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
To answer the question, personally, I can be patient if that's the clear direction they wanted to take. The gunslinger, guns-a-blazin' way of doing things is clearly a thing of the past. All 3 teams who dealt their 1st round draft pick before the start of the season, 2 of them aren't going to make the playoffs, and there's eerily decent chance we could be a third. It's just not how things are done anymore.
This is just circumstantial backwards logic to prove a point that has no real substantial value to the point you're trying to make.

Calgary traded their 1st 2010. They're in 9th place with an overrated team with no offense.

New Jersey traded their 1st 2010. They're in the postseason even after acquiring Kovalchuk. (only mid-season 1st 2010 trade)

We traded our 1st 2010. We're still in playoff contention despite a slumping offense and a ton of injuries both offensively and between the pipes.

Toronto traded their 1st 2010. They weren't a playoff team to begin with, and that's exactly why they traded their 1st.

In fact, imagine where we'd be right now if we hadn't used that 1st to acquire Pronger?

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03-23-2010, 11:58 AM
  #15
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I'm not going to be patient with the way this team is built. Homer is in "win now mode" and he acquired guys like Pronger, Timonen, Briere, etc. to do just that. If we had a team with the makeup of say the NYI, then totally I'd be patient because that IS a rebuilding team.

Also, I disagree with some of your points: Gagne is not dead weight, and I hope he retires here in Philly, Leighton should not be given 2-3 years and JVR and Giroux are in the most suitable roles for their age. I think leaving JVR off of the PP and top lines for the most part is a smart idea, being as that it's his first year in transition to a longer season.

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03-23-2010, 12:17 PM
  #16
Haute Couturier
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I have the patience for a rebuild if that was the course they took.

That bring said, I don't think a full-blown rebuild (ie collecting high picks) is needed, but they need to restructure the roster which could be done in a shorter amount of time. Some of the bloated contracts need to go (Briere) and this roster needs a chemistry makeover.

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03-23-2010, 12:36 PM
  #17
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**** no. This team is a goaltender and a #3 center away from being a force.

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03-23-2010, 12:40 PM
  #18
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
**** no. This team is a goaltender and a #3 center away from being a force.
I disagree only because this team does not have the desire to be a championship team. I believe this roster needs a shakeup.

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03-23-2010, 12:41 PM
  #19
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Unless the Flyers do a Rams-for-Colts trade, the current makeup of the team does not allow for a patient rebuild. There are too many big pieces to move out and not enough buyers in the NHL. Briere, Hartnell, Pronger, Timonen and at least one of Carter or Richards would all have to go. With a cap that's not likely to go up, that means making five separate trades, as you can't keep those salaries/ages (for some) around for 3-4 years of losing.
Some of us lived through the early '90s rebuild, so yes, we can do it. In the end, the Flyers only reached the Stanley Cup final once from that rebuild, and didn't even win a game. The Flyers ended up with some great players, but it's tough to say the five years out of the playoffs was worth it. Because it wasn't.
Oh, and that rebuild ... PAUL HOLMGREN was the coach through it. Unless the rebuild starts in the front office (and this isn't campaigning for Homer's head), I can't see a long-term effort working.

As for trying another summer quick-fix, that I can see happening. But as we've seen, the right moves are better than the splashy moves.

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03-23-2010, 12:44 PM
  #20
CantSeeColors
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree only because this team does not have the desire to be a championship team. I believe this roster needs a shakeup.
I find it hard to question a team's desire from behind a TV screen.

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03-23-2010, 12:46 PM
  #21
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Richards, Giroux, Carter, JVR, Marshall, Eriksson, Leino, Legein, etc.

When you already have a successful young core and prospects in place why in the world would we rebuild? Dumping salaries of older more expensive players is a re-tooling, not rebuilding. Rebuilding would be dumping your older players and struggling through a few season to restructure heavily through the draft, that won't happen here. I'd say our young players are good enough and mature enough to get this team to the Playoffs by next year with out the help of guys like Hartnell and Briere.

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03-23-2010, 01:02 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree only because this team does not have the desire to be a championship team. I believe this roster needs a shakeup.
Who are you calling out here?

- Carter, the guy who's spent 2 summers in a row in the weight room and has turned himself into a great 2-way player?

- Richards?

- Pronger?

- Kimmo?

- Gagne?

As far as I'm concerned, these guys have the desire to win, the problem is that the team assembled (specifically the 3rd line and G) isn't good enough to win it.

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03-23-2010, 01:06 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
This team in it's current state is NOT going to rebuild.

...nor is Snider (aside from death) going to leave the team.


Give your head a shake.
this and if Leighton gets a 2-3 year deal to "bridge" to our younger goalies we are in trouble, our goaltending depth is questionable at best, and if you think Leighton is the key to goaltending stability .............................

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03-23-2010, 01:15 PM
  #24
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by Murphy7 View Post
In the end, the Flyers only reached the Stanley Cup final once from that rebuild, and didn't even win a game. The Flyers ended up with some great players, but it's tough to say the five years out of the playoffs was worth it. Because it wasn't.
Yeah, but that's because the Flyers flushed that rebuild down the toilet with the Lindros trade. They have never formulated a long term plan and stuck with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I find it hard to question a team's desire from behind a TV screen.
Your mileage may vary, but for two years in a row this team does not put in the required effort it takes to win a championship. Yes, this team has holes, but they'd be a lot better this year and last if they didn't feel they could coast by on talent so often.

To illustrate how mediocre they've been they are currently on pace for 89 points which is pitiful. Any other year they'd be sitting in the 9th or 10th spot, but the whole East is mediocre which allows a team that gives a half-assed effort like the Flyers to skate by. If they were in the West they don't even make the playoffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Who are you calling out here?

- Carter, the guy who's spent 2 summers in a row in the weight room and has turned himself into a great 2-way player?

- Richards?

- Pronger?

- Kimmo?

- Gagne?

As far as I'm concerned, these guys have the desire to win, the problem is that the team assembled (specifically the 3rd line and G) isn't good enough to win it.
I am not calling anyone out specifically, but collectively as a whole they don't have what it takes, IMO. They don't give half-assed efforts because they lack a 3rd line C. Goaltending is an eye sore now, but they were given adequate goaltending throughout the season. The problem right now is this team has been trying to coast by on talent alone since the Olympic break. It has been a running theme for two years and has lasted through a coaching change. It's time to question whether this is the right mix of players.

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03-23-2010, 01:16 PM
  #25
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Why do people keep mentioning Coburn as a guy to get rid of to shed salary? The guy is making next to nothing and unless he demands big money why not sign him for another 3 years? He's still young and he will get better, for a cheap price, why not hope we get a steal?
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I'll tell you why some of us mention Coburn as a guy to move. The guy just can't put the entire package together. He's been in the league now for four seasons and has played pro hockey for five. At some point, you'd figure he'd be able to put the entire package together. Instead, he has digressed every year he's been in Philadelphia. He's gone from a potential top 2 defender, to a 4, to now a bottom pairing defender. He plays good for stretches, but then is absolutely attrocious for most. Every year, he tantalizes with his skill and ability, but he just doesn't have the mental make up to put it all together. We keep talking about how he's young and he'll get better, but for two plus years now, he's gotten worse and worse. I could care less about how much money he makes, but Lehtivuori will be ready next year and should push Coburn out of a job.

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