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Old
03-23-2010, 01:26 PM
  #26
SolidSnakeUS
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We are the brink right now. We either fall, or pull back and make things happen. As we are right now with Leighton, Emery and Carter out, we are very fragile and can go either way. We are not in position to give up much, but we are currently fragile, cracked glass ready to be tapped in the wrong place. There is always hope, but I can say, it's kind of a lot lower than it was a month ago. If we need a make or break right now to show we are ready to push for a playoff spot and be ready for it, it's now. Winning tonight's game against Ottawa, then against the Pens on Saturday and against the Devils on Sunday will be our make or break games for the Flyers. Winning those can really raise hope, if, and only if, we win them.

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Old
03-23-2010, 01:29 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I am not calling anyone out specifically, but collectively as a whole they don't have what it takes, IMO. They don't give half-assed efforts because they lack a 3rd line C. Goaltending is an eye sore now, but they were given adequate goaltending throughout the season. The problem right now is this team has been trying to coast by on talent alone since the Olympic break. It has been a running theme for two years and has lasted through a coaching change. It's time to question whether this is the right mix of players.
I think the half-assed efforts thing (at least under Lavi) is severely overplayed. Look at the last game we lost where we outshot the ATL 45-31 and lost because Boosh **** the bed.

We are 6th in shots allowed per game and 7th in shots for per game, so I think we're doing something right on that front. We're also 5th in blocked shots and you don't get to that kind of stat without some serious commitment by the whole team.

After that general run we went on before the Olympic break, a lot of people's expectations got a bit too high IMO. As many of us pointed out at the time, without a training camp, this team wasn't going to grasp Lavi's system until next year and I really think the Olympics hurt us in this regard.

Since we've gotten back, we've been struggling with Stevens-esque problems. Neutral zone turnovers, lack of aggressiveness on the forecheck, passivity in the defensive zone, and a really poor breakout.

I don't think you can play for a horrible coach for 3 years and then suddenly eradicate all of those problems in 50 odd games without the benefit of a training camp.

I think this general core has what it takes, but we need a real 3rd line, a real goalie, and an offseason and training camp with Lavi.

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Old
03-23-2010, 01:32 PM
  #28
KimiFerrari
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Simply put. NO!

The Flyers are my favorite team because they try and ice the best team they can every year.

Yes they take risks in some areas and they've made some critical cap mistakes lately. But the Flyer's, for the majority of the time are an entertaining team to watch.

There is a difference between being patient with a team that has lost players due to FA, Injuries, or prospects not panning out, and the team tanking/dismantling on purpose just to try and win a cup.

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03-23-2010, 01:47 PM
  #29
BernieParent
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Oh, the bipolarity of this board!
- "Dump those bloated contracts for whatever we can get for 'em!!!"
- "Improve our 3rd line with a proven veteran!!!"
- "Get a franchise goalie ... but don't trade anyone of value!!!"
- "Get a veteran goalie as insurance!!!"
- "Trade everyone!!!"
* Please note I'm overgeneralizing on purpose and am not picking on any one poster.

The Flyers had their chance to rebuild after the lost season, and Holmgren tore the door off the vault. He compressed rebuild into a single off-season, and has been reacting to this ever since. We fans reaped the benefits of it the very next season with a top-4 playoff finish, but it destabilized the franchise capwise for years to come.

How about the GM tries to stop being so reactionary and actually make a few well-conceived deals when he's not in an obvious state of need? Talk with other GMs this off-season about pretty much everyone, and see what the potential returns are. I think Simon Gagné, sentimentality and NTC aside, is the perfect candidate to garner a decent return while creating some cap space.

IMHO, Ericsson is the desired franchise G of the future, but we need only remember Maxime Ouellet as a reminder how plans can go awry really fast. While Ericsson is being groomed, Holmgren should be lining up plans B, C and D. I'd like to see Leighton for a cheap 1-year contract next year, to see if he really is putting it together, splitting duties with someone like Ellis or another better-than-decent G starter who won't cost $6 million a year.

And how about squeezing more out of the scouting staff? It's poor asset management to be seeking the flavour of the season (eg, Halak) all the time. The scouts should be putting names in Holmgren's inbox who have better-than-average chances of breaking out. Hopefully, the recent college-level deals of late are evidence of just this point. Get them and make sure they are in the best training environment possible with the Phantoms, which means demanding superior coaching and attitude training.

Given the number of long-term contracts, the Phantoms should be the primary source of low-cost, high-ceiling players for the 3rd and 4th lines.

Finally, yes, pour money into the medical staff (thanks, BWAVgal!). Their botch-ups are things of legend with this team, and I count the protracted injury situation with Emery among them.

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Old
03-23-2010, 03:03 PM
  #30
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Old
03-23-2010, 03:40 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Your mileage may vary, but for two years in a row this team does not put in the required effort it takes to win a championship. Yes, this team has holes, but they'd be a lot better this year and last if they didn't feel they could coast by on talent so often.

To illustrate how mediocre they've been they are currently on pace for 89 points which is pitiful. Any other year they'd be sitting in the 9th or 10th spot, but the whole East is mediocre which allows a team that gives a half-assed effort like the Flyers to skate by. If they were in the West they don't even make the playoffs.
I find it just as hard to measure someone else's effort from my couch as I do their desire. This team is on pace for 89 points because it has zero goaltending and had to learn any entirely new system in December. Just when they were starting to get it, they stopped playing for a few weeks and look pretty understandably disjointed.

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Old
03-23-2010, 05:11 PM
  #32
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I think the half-assed efforts thing (at least under Lavi) is severely overplayed. Look at the last game we lost where we outshot the ATL 45-31 and lost because Boosh **** the bed.

We are 6th in shots allowed per game and 7th in shots for per game, so I think we're doing something right on that front. We're also 5th in blocked shots and you don't get to that kind of stat without some serious commitment by the whole team.

After that general run we went on before the Olympic break, a lot of people's expectations got a bit too high IMO. As many of us pointed out at the time, without a training camp, this team wasn't going to grasp Lavi's system until next year and I really think the Olympics hurt us in this regard.

Since we've gotten back, we've been struggling with Stevens-esque problems. Neutral zone turnovers, lack of aggressiveness on the forecheck, passivity in the defensive zone, and a really poor breakout.

I don't think you can play for a horrible coach for 3 years and then suddenly eradicate all of those problems in 50 odd games without the benefit of a training camp.

I think this general core has what it takes, but we need a real 3rd line, a real goalie, and an offseason and training camp with Lavi.
Of course they start outshooting Atlanta after they get down 2-0. Maybe it is overblown, but Richards, Pronger, Laperierre, Timonen have all mentioned their inconsistent efforts. The Atlanta game is also just one example. They've been playing down to their opposition in every game they should win on paper since coming back from the break. 60 minute efforts have been lacking in most games as well.

I think it's a fair point that maybe they need a full training camp and a full season under Laviolette, but I am not sold this mix has what it takes. Their play since the break has been beyond disappointing. I do hope you are right, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I find it just as hard to measure someone else's effort from my couch as I do their desire. This team is on pace for 89 points because it has zero goaltending and had to learn any entirely new system in December. Just when they were starting to get it, they stopped playing for a few weeks and look pretty understandably disjointed.

That's what message boards are for, my friend. Look I've never been convinced that any of our goalies were long term solutions and would like to have someone that can steal games for us, but the play of our goalies has been adequate until Leighton got injured. It has nothing to do with the goaltending.

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Old
03-23-2010, 05:16 PM
  #33
FlyHigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Of course they start outshooting Atlanta after they get down 2-0. Maybe it is overblown, but Richards, Pronger, Laperierre, Timonen have all mentioned their inconsistent efforts. The Atlanta game is also just one example. They've been playing down to their opposition in every game they should win on paper since coming back from the break. 60 minute efforts have been lacking in most games as well.

I think it's a fair point that maybe they need a full training camp and a full season under Laviolette, but I am not sold this mix has what it takes. Their play since the break has been beyond disappointing. I do hope you are right, though.
See, I think the break hurt us more than we could have guessed because we are back to Stevens hockey which not coincidentally demands less effort from players than Lavi's.

I mean, just look at our breakouts/forecheck/defensive zone play now and compare it to January/February, it's apples and oranges. Why? I think it's because when you have bad habits ingrained in you for 3 years (and 3 training camps), it's a lot harder to shake those habits, particularly if just as you're mastering a new system, you don't play in it for 2 weeks. I mean, the Flyers had about 2 months under Lavi before the break, they blew ass up until around X-mas and then turned it around for 5-6 weeks before getting 2 weeks off. I think it's perfectly understandable that there's going to be a slight regression when they get back particularly with some of the breaks that have gone against them.

Then of course you have the combo of a guy being played out of position hurting his linemates and the team (Giroux), a key player last year who's playing like ass this year (Hartnell), and subpar goaltending and you get what we have now.

In the NHL, the gaps between teams are very small. Look at the Leafs who have an AHL forward group and have won 7 of 10. If the Flyers have a couple things like that going against them, it's going to have a dramatic impact.

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Old
03-23-2010, 05:28 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This is just circumstantial backwards logic to prove a point that has no real substantial value to the point you're trying to make.

Calgary traded their 1st 2010. They're in 9th place with an overrated team with no offense.

New Jersey traded their 1st 2010. They're in the postseason even after acquiring Kovalchuk. (only mid-season 1st 2010 trade)

We traded our 1st 2010. We're still in playoff contention despite a slumping offense and a ton of injuries both offensively and between the pipes.

Toronto traded their 1st 2010. They weren't a playoff team to begin with, and that's exactly why they traded their 1st.

In fact, imagine where we'd be right now if we hadn't used that 1st to acquire Pronger?
Impossible to tell where we'd be.

I'd say our team would look like this:

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JvR-Giroux-Lupul
Laperierre-Betts-Carcillo

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-??
Parent-Bartulis

Emery
Boucher

Don't know who would be that #4 defenseman, but offensively, we would be lethal.

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Old
03-23-2010, 05:47 PM
  #35
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i would rather trade JVR or Giroux for a A+ goalie, win, win, win, then rebuild.

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Old
03-23-2010, 06:02 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This is just circumstantial backwards logic to prove a point that has no real substantial value to the point you're trying to make.

Calgary traded their 1st 2010. They're in 9th place with an overrated team with no offense.

New Jersey traded their 1st 2010. They're in the postseason even after acquiring Kovalchuk. (only mid-season 1st 2010 trade)

We traded our 1st 2010. We're still in playoff contention despite a slumping offense and a ton of injuries both offensively and between the pipes.

Toronto traded their 1st 2010. They weren't a playoff team to begin with, and that's exactly why they traded their 1st.

In fact, imagine where we'd be right now if we hadn't used that 1st to acquire Pronger?
Maybe those teams are out of the playoffs because the said management overrated their teams. This was clearly the case in Calgary, they are just as much of a disappointment as we are.

It's absolute evidence as well. This is not opinion. Calgary and Toronto went all in for one player and backfired. They both thought they were in a different spot than where the actually were.

Imagine where we'd be without Pronger? You run that point all about. They did not trade for Pronger just to make the playoffs, and it looks like that's all that trade is going to accomplish. If we make the playoffs, for the second year in a row, we're going to be the team everyone else wants to play.

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Old
03-23-2010, 06:06 PM
  #37
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It would take this team years to even start to rebuild. At this point, they need to aim for the Cup every year. Kimmo, Briere, and Pronger are going to be old and highly paid and until each of those contracts is up, we can't rebuild. We also aren't going to have significant infusions of talent for several seasons due to the loss of picks. The team just has to keep fighting and we need to make what (relatively minor) moves we can.

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Old
03-23-2010, 06:11 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
See, I think the break hurt us more than we could have guessed because we are back to Stevens hockey which not coincidentally demands less effort from players than Lavi's.

I mean, just look at our breakouts/forecheck/defensive zone play now and compare it to January/February, it's apples and oranges. Why? I think it's because when you have bad habits ingrained in you for 3 years (and 3 training camps), it's a lot harder to shake those habits, particularly if just as you're mastering a new system, you don't play in it for 2 weeks. I mean, the Flyers had about 2 months under Lavi before the break, they blew ass up until around X-mas and then turned it around for 5-6 weeks before getting 2 weeks off. I think it's perfectly understandable that there's going to be a slight regression when they get back particularly with some of the breaks that have gone against them.
This is garbage.

The whole 'Flyers need a training camp under Lavi to get the system' thing is bogus.

Leading into the break, the players were playing Lavi's system quite well. Do you really mean to tell me that Giroux, JVR, Pronger, Carle, Parent, et al are struggling to break out of Stevens' system, when they haven't had it ingrained in them for three years? Or that all of these other elite-level hockey players who have had god knows how many coaches over the years suddenly reverted to playing badly just because they forgot Stevens was gone?

These are elite-level hockey players. I've made the argument before that hockey schemes and systems are not all that difficult to grasp, and all mostly based on variations of the same thing. All of these players have seen most of the different systems by the time they hit juniors.

I've seen high school players adapt to a new system over the course of a high school season which is maybe 18 games with no semblance of a professional training camp or practice every single day.


It's all effort, plain and simple. I remember before the Nashville game I heard an interview with Kimmo just saying their inconsistencies are dependent on people doing their job on and especially off the rink and coming prepared as individuals.

At this point, I think it's on the players. There are games where they visibly appear to be coasting. The whole "oh wahh, Lavi's system is too demanding after Stevens" argument may have worked for the first few months, but at this point they've had WAY more than enough practices and games to make up for a couple weeks in training camp. And that excuse started wearing on me even before they seemed to "get" it.

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Old
03-23-2010, 06:16 PM
  #39
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If you really think that high school systems and NHL systems are equivalent, I really don't know what to say.

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03-23-2010, 06:19 PM
  #40
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It's certainly on the players, however, it would have cost us less points in the standings if we didn't have the idiot Stevens for 2 months, and then wasting points learning Laviolette's system. The injury to Carter would simply be a minor inconvenience en route to coasting into a high seed and home-ice advantage in Round 1.

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03-23-2010, 06:24 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's certainly on the players, however, it would have cost us less points in the standings if we didn't have the idiot Stevens for 2 months, and then wasting points learning Laviolette's system. The injury to Carter would simply be a minor inconvenience en route to coasting into a high seed and home-ice advantage in Round 1.
This is truth.

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03-23-2010, 06:25 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If you really think that high school systems and NHL systems are equivalent, I really don't know what to say.
I don't, and wasn't saying that they were. That wasn't exactly the main crux of my argument, either, but if you want to sidestep the rest of it just for that, okay...

High school systems are more or less scaled to the players' abilities. I have seen high school players grapple with some fairly complex systems - for their skill level - and still make the transition without the number of games or practices that pros get.

NHL systems, therefore, are more or less scaled to the players' abilities. They may be the most complex hockey tactics around, but these are the best hockey players. And growing up, they have seen every type of basic system and a good number of the different systems that have been brought out of these other systems.

Any two systems based on a left wing lock are going to be the same up to a certain point. It shouldn't take an NHL player an entire season to learn how to play a different system. And the impact of a training camp is vastly overrated.

At this point, I have to believe it's just the players reverting to laziness because they think they don't have to work hard.

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03-23-2010, 06:28 PM
  #43
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You don't seem to understand that there's a strong difference between organizing a strong forecheck/breakout in the NHL and doing the same thing in junior or high school.

In the NHL, you don't just dump the puck and have everybody skate after it...

I mean, if you think that these guys can just instinctively pick up a completely different system with minimal practice time under a totally different coach, I just don't know what to tell you.

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03-23-2010, 06:29 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's certainly on the players, however, it would have cost us less points in the standings if we didn't have the idiot Stevens for 2 months, and then wasting points learning Laviolette's system. The injury to Carter would simply be a minor inconvenience en route to coasting into a high seed and home-ice advantage in Round 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
This is truth.
I certainly agree with this.

I'm not saying Stevens has not hurt this team this year. I'm just saying that the growing pains have been overrated, and at this point are definitely not applicable, in my opinion.

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03-23-2010, 06:32 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You don't seem to understand that there's a strong difference between organizing a strong forecheck/breakout in the NHL and doing the same thing in junior or high school.

In the NHL, you don't just dump the puck and have everybody skate after it...

I mean, if you think that these guys can just instinctively pick up a completely different system with minimal practice time under a totally different coach, I just don't know what to tell you.
I understand perfectly well that the NHL and junior and (obviously) high school are entirely different animals. The players are all bigger, stronger, faster, and better.

But it doesn't take an entire year for NHL players to learn a new system.

If it is so impossible for players to adapt, how do you explain players being traded at the deadline and being effective? Under your assumptions, it should be impossible for them to adjust to a new system under a new coach until they've had a training camp.

Obviously, that's an exaggerated comparison because things are more disjointed for an entire team, but still. I don't buy that these players are struggling right now because they're still not grasping Laviolette's style or system.

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03-23-2010, 06:35 PM
  #46
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Yes, there's absolutely no difference between 1 skater learning a new system while playing as a part of a team that gets it and an entire team trying to learn a new one.

Great analogy.

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03-23-2010, 06:37 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yes, there's absolutely no difference between 1 skater learning a new system while playing as a part of a team that gets it and an entire team trying to learn a new one.

Great analogy.
So there's no similarity, either?

I said there were differences and it's not entirely apples to apples, but if you really believe all of this team's problems are just because of Stevens, at this point, and are not symptomatic of either lack of chemistry or effort....then I just don't know what to tell you, man.

I guess you'll just have to wait until the start of next year, and come up with a new excuse if they keep lapsing into inconsistent, lazy play even after training camp.

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03-23-2010, 06:52 PM
  #48
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2 weeks off for the Olympic break did not set them back thats just ridiculous. Im not even going to bother saying why. Its not like these guys are brainwashed so that all of their hockey senses and brain power are thrown out the window because John Stevens likes to dump and chase.

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03-23-2010, 07:06 PM
  #49
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Who the hell is Gunnarsson? Gunnarsson is a Leafs defenseman.

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Old
03-23-2010, 10:02 PM
  #50
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
See, I think the break hurt us more than we could have guessed because we are back to Stevens hockey which not coincidentally demands less effort from players than Lavi's.

I mean, just look at our breakouts/forecheck/defensive zone play now and compare it to January/February, it's apples and oranges. Why? I think it's because when you have bad habits ingrained in you for 3 years (and 3 training camps), it's a lot harder to shake those habits, particularly if just as you're mastering a new system, you don't play in it for 2 weeks. I mean, the Flyers had about 2 months under Lavi before the break, they blew ass up until around X-mas and then turned it around for 5-6 weeks before getting 2 weeks off. I think it's perfectly understandable that there's going to be a slight regression when they get back particularly with some of the breaks that have gone against them.

Then of course you have the combo of a guy being played out of position hurting his linemates and the team (Giroux), a key player last year who's playing like ass this year (Hartnell), and subpar goaltending and you get what we have now.

In the NHL, the gaps between teams are very small. Look at the Leafs who have an AHL forward group and have won 7 of 10. If the Flyers have a couple things like that going against them, it's going to have a dramatic impact.
I think it is an interesting take on things and maybe there is some truth to it, but at the same time it seems like they haven't really been prepared to start most games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Maybe those teams are out of the playoffs because the said management overrated their teams. This was clearly the case in Calgary, they are just as much of a disappointment as we are.
Exactly. Heck the Flames actually have more points than us.

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