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Holland hasn't given up on getting hudler back

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Old
03-22-2010, 08:30 AM
  #76
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
*shrug*

Filppula, Cleary, Hudler, Holmstrom

All the same in overall impact.
The problem is, that's just an entirely incorrect assessment. Oh well, it's your own opinion.

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03-22-2010, 08:36 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Well, we might have went without Bertuzzi and Williams this year. I think I would have bit that bullet.
Getting rid of Bert and WIlliams and replacing them with 750k stiffs only gets you 1.5 of Hudler's 2.8.

Cut another 1.3 million.

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As for who we could go after during the summer, I think you're being optimistic with that $4-4.5m number and the type of player we could land. Are you looking at Tanguay (who I think you've mentioned before)? Then I hope to hell we're not offering him anything more than we'd offer Hudler. If you're looking at Frolov, I think you're looking at over $5m.
Keep in mind that Detroit got Bert and Williams, two fairly viable top 6 forwards (although far from what I would call game-changers), for one year deals at 1.5.

Personally, I don't know if I like dumping all the cap space into one guy as much as I would spreading it out over a couple different roster spots. Depends on who Detroit could get. If Detroit could land a Demitra or a Tanguay, then I'd be fine going over 3 million (up to maybe 4 for Demitra and slightly less for Tanguay). If they can't get guys of that caliber, then I'd rather the Wings try and get a couple players in the ~2 range.

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03-22-2010, 10:28 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Getting rid of Bert and WIlliams and replacing them with 750k stiffs only gets you 1.5 of Hudler's 2.8.

Cut another 1.3 million.



Keep in mind that Detroit got Bert and Williams, two fairly viable top 6 forwards (although far from what I would call game-changers), for one year deals at 1.5.

Personally, I don't know if I like dumping all the cap space into one guy as much as I would spreading it out over a couple different roster spots. Depends on who Detroit could get. If Detroit could land a Demitra or a Tanguay, then I'd be fine going over 3 million (up to maybe 4 for Demitra and slightly less for Tanguay). If they can't get guys of that caliber, then I'd rather the Wings try and get a couple players in the ~2 range.
A lineup fairly close to what we began the year with:

Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / * Jiri Hudler ($2.800m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
* Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / * Kirk Maltby ($0.883m)
* Darren Helm ($0.599m) / * Drew Miller ($0.525m) / * Brad May ($0.500m)
* Patrick Eaves ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
* Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m) / * Brett Lebda ($0.650m)
* Derek Meech ($0.483m)
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 22; PAYROLL: $56.545m; CAP ROOM: $0.255m BONUSES: $0.000m

I left Lilja off because he wasn't here for most of the year and, if you want, sub Ritola in for Miller as Miller came along a little later while Ritola was in our system at the time.

W/r/t who to sign over the summer, I just don't see a big enough (possibly any) upside in Tanguay/Demitra to pay them more than I'd pay Hudler. I think Hudler would be likely to outproduce either of them and neither brings an intangible to really set them apart. Add a likely longer, or at least comparable two year, term to the higher cap hit and I find it wholly unappealing.

Going into next season, if we don't have Hudler, I'd be expecting what you're suggesting with a couple of guys on the cheaper side. As we've seen, there's always some talent available on the cheap and Detroit probably looks pretty good to these guys in deciding who to sign with at the last minute. It wouldn't surprise me if Afinogenov is still under $2m this summer, despite his turnaround this season.

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Old
03-22-2010, 11:06 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
The problem is, that's just an entirely incorrect assessment. Oh well, it's your own opinion.
That it is. And judging by the salary amounts handed out by Kenny, he's probably closer to sharing mine than yours.

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03-22-2010, 11:08 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
A lineup fairly close to what we began the year with:
So then you're happy trading Bert, Williams and Lilja, three roster players... all for Hudler. And then Brad May has to stay on the roster all year.

You are certainly more bold than I.

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W/r/t who to sign over the summer, I just don't see a big enough (possibly any) upside in Tanguay/Demitra to pay them more than I'd pay Hudler. I think Hudler would be likely to outproduce either of them and neither brings an intangible to really set them apart.
In the top 6, against top 6 forwards?

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03-22-2010, 11:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
That it is. And judging by the salary amounts handed out by Kenny, he's probably closer to sharing mine than yours.
Has he paid any of those checks yet? Even the first years worth? Ah.

Again, Detroit accepted the deal because to not would have cost them Hudler and gotten them nothing. It also provides Hudler yet another opportunity to succeed when and if he returns to the NHL. And when and if he fails, it allows Detroit to trade him and makes him a more palatable commodity.

I fail to see the downsides in what he did.

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03-22-2010, 11:30 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
So then you're happy trading Bert, Williams and Lilja, three roster players... all for Hudler. And then Brad May has to stay on the roster all year.

You are certainly more bold than I.



In the top 6, against top 6 forwards?
Tanguay has only 34 pts this year and in the eastern conference, and he is pretty soft as well. Demitra I think could be a decent addition but if its over 4 million I don't know if the extra money is worth it. Frolov seems like the best choice because he is big, a right handed shot, and can score goals. Hopefully his horrible season he is having makes it so he can be had at a decent cap hit. He's one I'd take a risk on at a 4-4.5 million cap hit for 3 years at the most. If he wants 5 or more I'd rather Hudler.

I really think the sweetest scenario will be Detroit upsetting San Jose in the first round, Doug Wilson deciding to do a major player personnel change and not renewing Marleau, and us getting Marleau at hopefully a discounted rate (If Lidstrom signs under 6 and Hudler doesn't come back, I haven't worked out the numbers but I think we might be able to afford Marleau at 5 million).

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Old
03-22-2010, 11:58 AM
  #83
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Old
03-22-2010, 12:02 PM
  #84
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While its hard to believe this, we are all speculating Lidstrom stays on for the same money next year. Who says he wont sign for less? Maybe 6.5 like Raffy, or maybe, maybe.. even less then that to keep us very competitive? The guy has everything, including a damn year 9 digit's over his career financially. Honestly, ive speculated this type of scenario.

Holland sits with Nikky. Asks him for the exact time frame or close to. Say Nik Says 2 years left.

Holland signs him to a 14 million/3 year deal... 6.5, 6.5, 1 ... If nik Stays for the 1 million dollar year, maybe Holland can put in a clause for bonuses. Regardless we wont have to take a huge hit, he gets his money. Win-Win.


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Old
03-22-2010, 12:50 PM
  #85
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I'd love to have Hudler back, we're missing his presence on the 2nd PP unit.

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Old
03-22-2010, 01:17 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
While its hard to believe this, we are all speculating Lidstrom stays on for the same money next year.
Actually, I don't believe anyone has speculated that, much less all of 'us'.

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Holland signs him to a 14 million/3 year deal... 6.5, 6.5, 1 ... If nik Stays for the 1 million dollar year, maybe Holland can put in a clause for bonuses. Regardless we wont have to take a huge hit, he gets his money. Win-Win.

...except you can't step down the salary that quickly, so the contract would be rejected by the NHL.

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03-22-2010, 04:55 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I'd take Ciccarelli over Larry Murphy
I'll take Shawn Burr over Keith Primeau

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03-22-2010, 05:05 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Red Army View Post
I'll take Shawn Burr over Keith Primeau
shawn burr is an ahole. i had the misfortune of being on a hockey team where one of my teammates knew him and he came to some of our practices. nothing but obnoxious, cocky ahole

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03-22-2010, 05:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
shawn burr is an ahole. i had the misfortune of being on a hockey team where one of my teammates knew him and he came to some of our practices. nothing but obnoxious, cocky ahole
I still remember the hit he threw back in 93 on Jocelyn Lemieux. A thing of beauty.

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Old
03-24-2010, 11:40 AM
  #90
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I would love to have Hudler back. He would not score at a point per game pace like he is in the KHL, but he would definitly help our offense!

Plus he's small so whenever we get beat by a physical team we can blame him.
On a top two line, Hudler will almost certainly be a PPG player. Based on his production at ES time in 08-09, projecting to the ES time played by the Wings' top six forwards that year, he would have cleared or come close to the PPG mark. Now he's had a year to improve his skills. Playing with Draper and Maltby most of the year for only 10 minutes at ES, he scored 29 points at ES. He played PP about 2 minutes a game, often with Z, and they had crazy chemistry. 14 minutes a game at ES together would be SICK for both of them given the PP production-Hudler put up 28 PP points on a PP line cycling with Zetterberg, more than Hossa, Holmstrom, or Franzen did that year-and Huds' PP numbers were much better than anything the Wings' PP forwards are producing this season.

Hudler is missed, but it would have been better to have kept Huds and not signed Bertuzzi/Williams. The roster that I would have preferred to start the season with?

Zetterberg
Datsyuk
Franzen
Hudler
Filppula
Cleary
Holmstrom
Eaves
Helm
Draper
Maltby
Leino

Lidstrom
Kronwall
Rafalski
Stuart
Lilja (LTIR)
Ericsson
Meech
Lebda

Osgood
Howard

Leaves $405,457 in cap space.

Beyond that, after the weak performances of Lebda and Leino in the first 20 games of the season, I would have traded both, along with their combined $1.45m cap hit, for prospects/picks. Following that, I would have recalled Abdelkader and Janik, who have a combined $1.35 cap hit, to replace them.

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03-24-2010, 12:36 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Actually, I don't believe anyone has speculated that, much less all of 'us'.



...except you can't step down the salary that quickly, so the contract would be rejected by the NHL.
And if Nick retired after the first two years, Detroit would be stuck with the (not insignificant) cap hit for the last year given his age.

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03-24-2010, 01:09 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
On a top two line, Hudler will almost certainly be a PPG player. Based on his production at ES time in 08-09, projecting to the ES time played by the Wings' top six forwards that year, he would have cleared or come close to the PPG mark. Now he's had a year to improve his skills. Playing with Draper and Maltby most of the year for only 10 minutes at ES, he scored 29 points at ES. He played PP about 2 minutes a game, often with Z, and they had crazy chemistry. 14 minutes a game at ES together would be SICK for both of them given the PP production-Hudler put up 28 PP points on a PP line cycling with Zetterberg, more than Hossa, Holmstrom, or Franzen did that year-and Huds' PP numbers were much better than anything the Wings' PP forwards are producing this season.

Hudler is missed, but it would have been better to have kept Huds and not signed Bertuzzi/Williams. The roster that I would have preferred to start the season with?

Zetterberg
Datsyuk
Franzen
Hudler
Filppula
Cleary
Holmstrom
Eaves
Helm
Draper
Maltby
Leino

Lidstrom
Kronwall
Rafalski
Stuart
Lilja (LTIR)
Ericsson
Meech
Lebda

Osgood
Howard

Leaves $405,457 in cap space.

Beyond that, after the weak performances of Lebda and Leino in the first 20 games of the season, I would have traded both, along with their combined $1.45m cap hit, for prospects/picks. Following that, I would have recalled Abdelkader and Janik, who have a combined $1.35 cap hit, to replace them.

PPG?

He hardly put up PPG in the KHL.

He put up 57 when playing against players not in other teams top 6. He wouldn't be near 82 points.

Players that were PPG last year were guys like Thornton, Carter, Cammalleri, the Sedins, Nash, Semin, Backstrom, Richards....

This year you're looking at Kovy, Parise, Heatley, Marleau, Kopitar, Stastny, Iggy.... etc.

PPG is a huge stretch for Huds. 60ish points I can buy as a reasonable estimate for Huds, nowhere near a PPG.

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03-24-2010, 01:12 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
shawn burr is an ahole. i had the misfortune of being on a hockey team where one of my teammates knew him and he came to some of our practices. nothing but obnoxious, cocky ahole
I could say the same thing about Primeau.

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Old
03-24-2010, 01:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by PocketGnome View Post
PPG is a huge stretch for Huds. 60ish points I can buy as a reasonable estimate for Huds, nowhere near a PPG.
IIRC, Hudler is around half a point per game in his career in games where he plays >16 minutes.

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03-24-2010, 02:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
IIRC, Hudler is around half a point per game in his career in games where he plays >16 minutes.

Against what forward lines? What defensive pairings? He put up 57 points because the lines in front of him consisted of players like Datsyuk and his 97 point season, Zetterberg, Hossa and his 40 goal year. Franzen had 34. The defensive attention these guys were getting opened up the ice.

Don't get me wrong, I think Hudler can put up 60, maybe 65. But going up to 80-85 is a big stretch for a guy like Hudler.

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03-24-2010, 02:59 PM
  #96
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What about Kesler in Vancouver? There are some guys that are great pieces to have even if they aren't the straw that stirs the drink. Hudler is one of those people. He won't make other players better, but he is a reliable offensive option for Dats or Z to play with, He probably wouldn't get past 60 points this year, based on Zetterberg's (his projected linemate?) struggles. But I think in a good year for the Wings, he could get to 80 points.

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03-24-2010, 03:15 PM
  #97
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What about Kesler in Vancouver? There are some guys that are great pieces to have even if they aren't the straw that stirs the drink. Hudler is one of those people. He won't make other players better, but he is a reliable offensive option for Dats or Z to play with, He probably wouldn't get past 60 points this year, based on Zetterberg's (his projected linemate?) struggles. But I think in a good year for the Wings, he could get to 80 points.
Kesler just got 6yr 5m per. I'd say Vancouver feels he is one of the "straws that stirs the drink." Comparing Huds to Kesler isn't fair to Kes anyway. He's 6'2 195. Huds MIGHT be 5'9 180. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

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