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Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)

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03-26-2010, 11:17 PM
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Art.Vandelay
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Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)

More information on Reinsdorf's interest in the Coyotes. Apparently his partner Kaites is presenting a plan to state lawmakers for a tax district to help facilitate his purchase of the team.

Reinsdorf is opposing a bill that would create tax districts to help the construction of a new stadium for the Cubs.

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...l?jst=pn_pn_lk

For some reason, I can read the entire article on my Blackberry, but when accessing on my pc, it says I need to login. A few interesting pieces from the rest of the article:

AZ House Majority Leader John McComish is the main sponsor of the current bill. He says Kaites has been pushing his and Reinsdorfs plan aggressively.

Kaites and Reinsdorf met with COG City Manager Ed Beasley and other COG officials about a potential Coyotes purchase and lease deal.

Steve Ellman has been involved in the discussions.

In an interview last week Kaites said he knows exactly how the hockey saga is going to end, but would not elaborate.

The tax districts concept is back by Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon.

The plan will face political resistance and possible legal challenges.


MOD: Continued from http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=750122


Last edited by LadyStanley: 04-09-2010 at 04:16 PM. Reason: update title; formerly subtitled: "You scratch my back" Edition
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03-26-2010, 11:31 PM
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Reinsdorf opposes a state plan to assess an 8 percent fee on all Cactus League game tickets to help fund construction of an $84 million Cubs stadium in Mesa.
Wow, the man has balls. It just might work. If he has the house majority leader on his side and the mayor, it might pass. Who knows if it would stand up in court but it's the only option here.

I guess Jerry, Kaites and Beasley are the real reason there is no news with regards to Ice Edge

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03-26-2010, 11:38 PM
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Check out the other articles in the margins of Art's citation:

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...5/daily27.html

Mesa may have to face Goldwater.

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...1/daily39.html

Cardinals win a state issued concession right for the stadium.


Does the state of Arizona [or Phx area cities] really have all this money to give to all these teams?

 
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03-27-2010, 01:30 AM
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Does the state of Arizona [or Phx area cities] really have all this money to give to all these teams?
Yes, but what is being discussed is a new tax so therefore the city is not really giving anything up. Arizona makes a ton of money off of tourism and if I remember right most of the Cardinals stadium was financed with that money.

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03-27-2010, 01:43 AM
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Can someone explain this to me? I fail to see what Reinsdorf opposing the tax district for a new stadium for the Cubs in Illinois has any relevance to what is happening in the Coyotes situation in Arizona. Wouldn't it hurt his chances of getting the tax district, if anything?
The Cubs stadium being referred to is for their spring training facility in Mesa, AZ.

Currently most of the MLB teams with spring training programs in Phoenix are against having their gate receipts taxed just so that the Cubs can get a new stadium. IIRC.... Reinsdorf appearantly would change his opposition if he can get a similar district set up for Westgate to benefit Glendale and the Coyotes.

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03-27-2010, 01:46 AM
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Yes, but what is being discussed is a new tax so therefore the city is not really giving anything up. Arizona makes a ton of money off of tourism and if I remember right most of the Cardinals stadium was financed with that money.
Correct.... most of the money came from additional taxes tacked onto car rentals at Sky Harbor Intl. Airport.

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03-27-2010, 09:35 AM
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Whats' the likelihood of this getting passed, if at all, and what the time-line might be for it to be documented, made public, I'd assume debated & then put to a vote barring any serious legal challenges, and, how does this differ from the bill that was proposed in February, minus Kaites/Reinsdorfs' influence & leverage that was quickly dropped?. Sorry, so many questions, so little time!...

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03-27-2010, 01:01 PM
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Yes, but what is being discussed is a new tax so therefore the city is not really giving anything up. Arizona makes a ton of money off of tourism and if I remember right most of the Cardinals stadium was financed with that money.

I always thought of Arizona as fiscally conservative, so adding taxes for new ventures when some communities have existing budget deficits just doesn't add up. I will say that I'm not familiar with the budget situation for Mesa or the surrounding municipalities, while COG's has been mentioned at ~$14m, iirc.

 
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03-27-2010, 01:55 PM
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Brilliant!!!

i have always felt that the key to this deal would be some form of a tax district similar to what JR proposed before the leak but just couldn't figure out his angle since there didn't seem to be political will in the state senate to bring a similar bill to the floor recently.....its the only way i could see that the Coyotes could get that instant infusion of $20 million and get the team into the black quickly.

Enter JR and his crew and now they re-package their tax district but roll it in with the Cubs deal to get more allies on board and more political leverage. As one of the other posters said earlier JR is punching below his weight on this deal and Ice Edge was punching above their weight....really brilliant to align your play with the cubs play

i guess this is the first salvo being thrown out going public on this plan.....now we will weight to see if there is a howl of opposition from taxpayers and a legal challenge from Goldwater....or we will see if JR and all interested parties have the hammer


can anyone give us more details about where the taxes would come from around Glendale??? does that mean things like Restaurants, bars, hotels etc in the area charge some sort of tax to its customers??

JR and the guys have balls to be pitching tax increases in the US right now even targeted tax increases to prop up and subsidize the acquisition of a sports team by a private party

however i think it might just work......game on everyone!!

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03-27-2010, 01:57 PM
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According to a local "business of sports" radio show broadcast yesterday, the Coyotes are right now still unable to crack the $500k level in per-game gate revenue. Still worst in the NHL, despite their on-ice success.

That's obviously a horrid horrid revenue number - is there a convenient way to corroborate/dispute it?

 
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03-27-2010, 02:01 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
The Cubs stadium being referred to is for their spring training facility in Mesa, AZ.

Currently most of the MLB teams with spring training programs in Phoenix are against having their gate receipts taxed just so that the Cubs can get a new stadium. IIRC.... Reinsdorf appearantly would change his opposition if he can get a similar district set up for Westgate to benefit Glendale and the Coyotes.
Actually, he's proposing an alternative to the Mesa plan. Create special taxing districts around ALL sports complexes in the Valley.

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03-27-2010, 02:04 PM
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Yeah, quite the Power Play. Likely an 8% (?) tax on everything in & around Westgate. Again though, wondering about time-lines, likely challenges. Arizona being decidedly Republican, with McCain facing serious issues & a challenge to his seat, the strength & popularity of the Tea Party, illegal immigration, the housing blowout & unemployment, Goldwater breathing down their necks, whats the real likelihood of this succeeding?...

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03-27-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RR View Post
Actually, he's proposing an alternative to the Mesa plan. Create special taxing districts around ALL sports complexes in the Valley.
yea that is the take i had.....hey Cubs scrap you plan and follow me...there strength in numbers!!

one of the only issues is the Cubs tax seemed to be levied on the baseball fans directly although many were not Cubs fans I'm sure.....this new tax seems to be more geographical

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03-27-2010, 02:12 PM
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Actually, he's proposing an alternative to the Mesa plan. Create special taxing districts around ALL sports complexes in the Valley.
Tax districts to benefit sports complexes would be a subsidy by the taxpayers... How would Goldwater not appose this?? This would be a direct and new subsidy indirectly for the Yotes..
Government should not be involved in sports teams subsidizing millionaires !!
Maybe okay in the 80's and 90's but not okay today.. Arizona should support their own team privately and if they can't then you should say good-bye!

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03-27-2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yeah, quite the Power Play. Likely an 8% (?) tax on everything in & around Westgate. Again though, wondering about time-lines, likely challenges. Arizona being decidedly Republican, with McCain facing serious issues & a challenge to his seat, the strength & popularity of the Tea Party, illegal immigration, the housing blowout & unemployment, Goldwater breathing down their necks, whats the real likelihood of this succeeding?...
to piggyback onto Killion's question i assume this issue of a tax zone gets decided at the state level and therefore i would also like to ask the Arizona guys how the state legislature works when a bill is presented to the floor....do they need a simple majority or more? is there a filibuster type mechanism like the senate? what is the current composition of the state legislature? i thought repulicans hated taxes?

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03-27-2010, 02:26 PM
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Tax districts to benefit sports complexes would be a subsidy by the taxpayers... How would Goldwater not appose this?? This would be a direct and new subsidy indirectly for the Yotes..Government should not be involved in sports teams subsidizing millionaires !!
Maybe okay in the 80's and 90's but not okay today.. Arizona should support their own team privately and if they can't then you should say good-bye!
yes i completely agree and here is a quote from the Az republic on the cubs issue: Goldwater attorney Clint Bolick said Tuesday the deal between the city of Mesa and the Cubs could violate state prohibitions against government gifts to private entities crossing the Arizona Supreme Court’s recent decision on tax incentives given by Phoenix to the CityNorth development.

to me the spirit of Reinsdorf proposal seems to be in direct violation of private entities receiving gifts from taxpayers!! How the hell are they going to get around that law....i guess the devil might be in the details of the proposal but it could be tough defending it in court....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck?

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03-27-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Steen View Post
Tax districts to benefit sports complexes would be a subsidy by the taxpayers... How would Goldwater not appose this?? This would be a direct and new subsidy indirectly for the Yotes..
Government should not be involved in sports teams subsidizing millionaires !!
Maybe okay in the 80's and 90's but not okay today.. Arizona should support their own team privately and if they can't then you should say good-bye!
100% agree. Glendale already footed most of the bill for the arena. That is more than enough. Either the Coyotes can cover their own costs by creating their own revenue, or they should move or fold.

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03-27-2010, 04:51 PM
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yes i completely agree and here is a quote from the Az republic on the cubs issue: Goldwater attorney Clint Bolick said Tuesday the deal between the city of Mesa and the Cubs could violate state prohibitions against government gifts to private entities crossing the Arizona Supreme Courtís recent decision on tax incentives given by Phoenix to the CityNorth development.

to me the spirit of Reinsdorf proposal seems to be in direct violation of private entities receiving gifts from taxpayers!! How the hell are they going to get around that law....i guess the devil might be in the details of the proposal but it could be tough defending it in court....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck?
I think if there were any chance of it succeeding it court, it would have to take some really fancy language that would direct it away from subsidizing.

I would love to hear from posters who work with legalities like this: Could you hypothetically find a way to word an agreement so that would have a maximum chance of standing up in court?

I agree with the thoughts that whoever gets the team is going to have to take the losses without assistance, and will be dealing with the 26 year lease. If Reinsdorf can pull this off I'm going to be REALLY interested in the details.

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03-27-2010, 05:34 PM
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Actually, he's proposing an alternative to the Mesa plan. Create special taxing districts around ALL sports complexes in the Valley.
Now that is interesting... and bound to polarize legislators.

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03-27-2010, 05:39 PM
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Not sure about JR's plans, but...

The "Cubs Tax" proposal is actually a 10% tax on Cactus League tickets to cover revenue shortfalls of the state game facilities commission. They would use the money not only for a new Cubs facility, but also for upgrades to the other teams spring-training complexes over time.

In theory, it's less a "TAX" then a "User FEE" on those who purchase tickets to spring training games, to maintain those facilities.

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03-27-2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in MN View Post
Not sure about JR's plans, but...

The "Cubs Tax" proposal is actually a 10% tax on Cactus League tickets to cover revenue shortfalls of the state game facilities commission. They would use the money not only for a new Cubs facility, but also for upgrades to the other teams spring-training complexes over time.

In theory, it's less a "TAX" then a "User FEE" on those who purchase tickets to spring training games, to maintain those facilities.
Gotta love that Minnesota Fighting Saints logo...

Brings back memories.

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03-27-2010, 08:08 PM
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Scott Morrison on CBC Hotstove announced Council in Glendale will be holding meeting Tuesday to decide whether to go ahead changes to lease with IE, and/or Reinsdorf or keep lease as it is for any future purchaser of Coyotes.

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03-27-2010, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
Scott Morrison on CBC Hotstove announced Council in Glendale will be holding meeting Tuesday to decide whether to go ahead changes to lease with IE, and/or Reinsdorf or keep lease as it is for any future purchaser of Coyotes.
Sounds like one way or another, Tuesday will be a big day in terms of whether they stay or go...at least the first of many if they decide to make concessions for either IE or Reinsdorf. If they don't, then we all know what will end up happening next...

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03-27-2010, 09:02 PM
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Thats good news. Finally, the fans in Phoenix will hear from their elected officials as to where their headed, the speculation can stop, and we'll have some solid information & direction. I hope!.

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03-27-2010, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
Scott Morrison on CBC Hotstove announced Council in Glendale will be holding meeting Tuesday to decide whether to go ahead changes to lease with IE, and/or Reinsdorf or keep lease as it is for any future purchaser of Coyotes.
this will be interesting to see what they propose? i assume if they have concessions of any sort (or added revenue streams) it would work in conjunction with the proposed legislation at the state level.....the tax zone!! i like the CoG timing....get out ahead of it if you're going to propose something and then put the heat on the state to get the tax zone passed at a later date.....if the state can't get it done and the deal dies the blame gets directed to the state....last man standing when the music stops....that is assuming the CoG have the political will to craft some kind of plan that can get the votes and pass a legal challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATHF View Post
Sounds like one way or another, Tuesday will be a big day in terms of whether they stay or go...at least the first of many if they decide to make concessions for either IE or Reinsdorf. If they don't, then we all know what will end up happening next...
i will put my money on "the first of many".....i assume this has been worked out with one of the groups (Reinsdorf) and the CoG is taking the first step.

I have been at a 3 year old's birthday all afternoon and had time to reflect on this matter and i was struck by the simplicity of this situation......at the end of the day no matter how they package it with all the smoke and mirrors....a new owner is going to attempt directly or indirectly get an estimated $20 million dollars in tax payers dollars annually to offset the ongoing operations of the Phoenix Coyotes.....its not money to finance a new facility....its going to an individual to subsidize the operation of a team.

the cubs proposing a user fee on all tickets to all cactus league games to upgrade all facilities as needed (if that is accurate) makes some sense to me.....it is highway toll model

a tax zone around an arena that goes towards propping up a failing business model seems much different IMHO

now i assume JR and the politicians are smart enough to disguise it and try to make it bullet proof...probably the taxes will flow towards paying the debt on the arena and they will work compensating JR indirectly....but at the end of the day if the Yotes had a good owner and a viable business none of this would be necessary

it will be fascinating to watch it unfold and see how they actually propose this.....i assume Goldwater is licking their lips

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