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Old
03-27-2010, 01:33 AM
  #476
kanuck87
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Originally Posted by Edler Von Gud View Post
Mike Gillis is building the team in the Detroit model just like he said when he first got here. Only difference is the elite goalie instead of the elite defenseman. You might not like it but the deep puck possession style roster has worked in Detroit for a couple decades. Common misconception is that you have to be big and physical to win the cup when the real key is depth through your lineup. The game is evolving, and the old dinosaurs like Burke will be forced to accept a 3 scoring line/1 energy line system or be left in the dust. I highly doubt you see any team make it to the stanley cup finals or even conference finals without 3 lines that can score.
Absolutely agree, and if this weren't the case, MG wouldn't be drafting all these undersized offensive dynamos.

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03-27-2010, 01:54 AM
  #477
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Last two Stanley Cup winners haven't been all that big. Aside from Jordan Staal and Hal Gill (*snorts*), there really weren't very big guys on Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh also had mediocre defense. No real number 1.
What about Sergei Gonchar? I thought he was there no.1 d-man.

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03-27-2010, 02:21 AM
  #478
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What about Sergei Gonchar? I thought he was there no.1 d-man.
Not much that really seperates him from Ehrhoff. Good on the PP, decent 5 on 5 but he's not a true #1.

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03-27-2010, 02:25 AM
  #479
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However at this point, I don't think there is much doubt that Hodgson is a higher rated prospect than Schroeder. Last season he was at least as good a junior player as Matt Duchene but Duchene got to training camp healthy and stepped onto a team full of young talented wingers that lacked depth at centre. Cody arrived with nerve damage on a team where the top 2 centre spots were set in stone.
Duchene was always the better and higher rated prospect. Anyone who thinks that Hodgson will measure up to Duchene is setting themselves up for disappointment.

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03-27-2010, 02:35 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
That line would have a pretty damn high hockey IQ. Wow. Me likey.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Kesler-Grabner
Samuelsson-Hodgson-Schroeder

As a top 9?
Still like to see one of them turned into a power forward that can skate.


Raymond + Bieksa for...

another bonus is that Hodgson, Grabner, Schroeder and Shirokov (a step or two behind) can all be shuttled back and forth with the Moose. If one guy's play slips, send him down for a confidence boost and pull up whoever's playing well.

doubt we see more than two on the roster out of camp though, but who knows.

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03-27-2010, 02:44 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
Still like to see one of them turned into a power forward that can skate.


Raymond + Bieksa for...

another bonus is that Hodgson, Grabner, Schroeder and Shirokov (a step or two behind) can all be shuttled back and forth with the Moose. If one guy's play slips, send him down for a confidence boost and pull up whoever's playing well.

doubt we see more than two on the roster out of camp though, but who knows.
I'd trade Raymond and Bieksa for James Neal. Crow can put in a good word for Bieksa like he did for Cloutier.

I really don't see any future for Shirokov with the Canucks. I think he is either traded this summer or he heads back to Russia. Just a gut feeling.

Next season will likely see Grabner/Schroeder battling for a wing spot and Hodgson/Wellwood or another center battling it out for 3rd line center.

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03-27-2010, 02:50 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Edler Von Gud View Post
I'd trade Raymond and Bieksa for James Neal. Crow can put in a good word for Bieksa like he did for Cloutier.
Joe Nieuwendyk is not that dumb, unfortunately.

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03-27-2010, 02:52 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Having three rookies in your top-9 forwards is generally something you only see on rebuilding teams not expecting to compete, and with good reason. Rookies are generally inconsistent and need soft ice time to have any kind of success. The Canucks are one team that might be able to get away with it given the quality of their top-9 forwards but I still wouldn't bet on it.
Getzlaf, Perry, Penner? They were 2nd year players when the Ducks won the Stanley Cup.

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03-27-2010, 03:19 AM
  #484
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I'd like to have Wellwood and Hodgson alternate in and out of the third line and the press box. Both a bound to go cold at some points, which is a good time to swap em! If they both happen to get hot, throw one on the wing.

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03-27-2010, 03:22 AM
  #485
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We can call them the 4th line. Problem solved.
It's a fair point but there's no chance that Vigneault plays them on the fourth line.

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Originally Posted by Pauser View Post
Getzlaf, Perry, Penner? They were 2nd year players when the Ducks won the Stanley Cup.
Second year players at that age are generally able to step up and play a more prominent role. They don't generally struggle as much as rookies do.

And even then, those three were definitely sheltered by the Ducks. The Pahlsson line was hard matched against the other team's quality lines and McDonald/Selanne drew the rest of the tough matchups.

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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
Not much that really seperates him from Ehrhoff. Good on the PP, decent 5 on 5 but he's not a true #1.
Gonchar is definitely a better player than Ehrhoff. Ehrhoff has had some defensive struggles now that his minutes have gotten tougher with Mitchell out. Gonchar is a guy who can play tough minutes and do a good job of it.

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03-27-2010, 03:23 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
That's a sick top 9. All scoring lines, all defensively responsible.

We could put out the worst ever group of defensemen and still could end up with a top 10 GA.
What in god's name makes you so convinced that Hodgson or Schnieder will be defensively responsible in their first year in the NHL?

I'd be willing to bet that third line won't be better defensively than the one we have now.

For the future, sure, but that lineup looks way too raw for next year. Unless one of them goes on the 4th line, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

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03-27-2010, 03:48 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
What in god's name makes you so convinced that Hodgson or Schnieder will be defensively responsible in their first year in the NHL?

I'd be willing to bet that third line won't be better defensively than the one we have now.

For the future, sure, but that lineup looks way too raw for next year. Unless one of them goes on the 4th line, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
Um, let's hope he's defensively responsible, or else Luongo will never get a rest

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03-27-2010, 07:28 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
It's a fair point but there's no chance that Vigneault plays them on the fourth line.
I agree they wouldn't be the real 4th line, that was just some fun with words. AV really seems to have his 4th line ideas kind of made of stone. Ideally we would fine some upgrades for the 4th line, which would allow the 3rd line to have some kids and not be relied on as heavily.

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03-27-2010, 11:18 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
What in god's name makes you so convinced that Hodgson or Schnieder will be defensively responsible in their first year in the NHL?

I'd be willing to bet that third line won't be better defensively than the one we have now.

For the future, sure, but that lineup looks way too raw for next year. Unless one of them goes on the 4th line, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
Hodgson is known to be a solid two-way forward. He's not all of a sudden going to forget to play defense when he gets to the NHL.

I know less about Schroeder's defensive capabilities, but as long as he's not a complete klutz, it should be fine with Samuelsson and Hodgson.

If both force their way onto the team, fourth line isn't likely an option for either one, maybe for Hodgson. It wouldn't be worthwhile to give them 5 or 6 minutes a game when they could be in the AHL playing top-line minutes.

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03-27-2010, 12:17 PM
  #490
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I think I recall Schroeder playing on the PK during the WJC . . . can anyone confirm?

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03-27-2010, 12:19 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by 701 View Post
I think I recall Schroeder playing on the PK during the WJC . . . can anyone confirm?
he was a regular on the PK.

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03-27-2010, 12:20 PM
  #492
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Not much that really seperates him from Ehrhoff. Good on the PP, decent 5 on 5 but he's not a true #1.
Comments like this baffle me. There are 30 teams in the NHL, ergo there should be 30 #1 defenceman. Gonchar was a top 30 defenceman during that time. He was a #1, just not an elite one.

Same can be said for Ehrhoff this season.

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03-27-2010, 12:41 PM
  #493
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Jordan Schroeder is playing well. and 4pts in 3 games is very good on a so - so moose team. But how will his 5"9 175 frame handle a grueliing 82 game schedule with all the travel that the canucks do. I will need to see it to believe it that the will me the player that everyone says he might be.

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03-27-2010, 12:50 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Comments like this baffle me. There are 30 teams in the NHL, ergo there should be 30 #1 defenceman. Gonchar was a top 30 defenceman during that time. He was a #1, just not an elite one.

Same can be said for Ehrhoff this season.
When people talk about a "true #1" whether be a center or a defenseman, they're talking about the top echelon, not just the top 30. Peverly, Stajan, and Prospal are all top 30 in points for centers, but I don't know too many people who'd call them legitimate #1 centers.

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03-27-2010, 12:52 PM
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But 14 of those #1's don't even make the playoffs. When Anaheim had Nieds and Pronger were there 31 #1 d-man, or was one of those guys a #2? Ideally, on a contending team I believe Erhoff is your #2-3 guy. Most years he's probably your #3 guy. I'm not yet sold that Erhoff can repeat this type of season again.

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03-27-2010, 05:36 PM
  #496
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Hodgson is known to be a solid two-way forward. He's not all of a sudden going to forget to play defense when he gets to the NHL.

I know less about Schroeder's defensive capabilities, but as long as he's not a complete klutz, it should be fine with Samuelsson and Hodgson.

If both force their way onto the team, fourth line isn't likely an option for either one, maybe for Hodgson. It wouldn't be worthwhile to give them 5 or 6 minutes a game when they could be in the AHL playing top-line minutes.
Except that 'playing defense' in the NHL is way harder than playing defense in junior, especially for a center. I expect Hodgson to do better offensively than defensively, to be honest. Even if he does acquit himself nicely, it's not like he's going to be immediately good enough to be able to 'bail out Schroeder as long as he's not a klutz' like you say.

There's very little doubt in my mind that that line will struggle in their own end in their first year. Maybe if they were on a line with Kesler instead of Samuelsson I would agree.

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03-27-2010, 06:32 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Except that 'playing defense' in the NHL is way harder than playing defense in junior, especially for a center. I expect Hodgson to do better offensively than defensively, to be honest. Even if he does acquit himself nicely, it's not like he's going to be immediately good enough to be able to 'bail out Schroeder as long as he's not a klutz' like you say.

There's very little doubt in my mind that that line will struggle in their own end in their first year. Maybe if they were on a line with Kesler instead of Samuelsson I would agree.
IMO, defense will be the one thing Hodgson should be able to do well immediately, even if he doesnt put up the offensive numbers. The roles and responsibilities from the juniors to the NHL don't change. The players are bigger and faster, but for the most part, teams plays a zone defense, so it's not like Hodgson will often find himself matched up on one-on-one situations.

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03-27-2010, 07:08 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Comments like this baffle me. There are 30 teams in the NHL, ergo there should be 30 #1 defenceman. Gonchar was a top 30 defenceman during that time. He was a #1, just not an elite one.

Same can be said for Ehrhoff this season.
Exactly. This was the argument that everyone used against the Sedin's but they do a little extra this year and now no one is saying a word about them not being 1st liners.

Erhoff is finally getting to play a #1 defensive role and guess what...He's playing like a number one d man.

I'm glad we're on the same page Monster

That is also the argument used for why Kesler is worth 5m...He's t-23rd in scoring and 12th in center scoring....meaning, this year, he's playing better than most teams forwards and centers in terms of pure points.

Than throw in the rest of what he does.

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03-27-2010, 07:54 PM
  #499
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IMO, defense will be the one thing Hodgson should be able to do well immediately, even if he doesnt put up the offensive numbers. The roles and responsibilities from the juniors to the NHL don't change. The players are bigger and faster, but for the most part, teams plays a zone defense, so it's not like Hodgson will often find himself matched up on one-on-one situations.
Even Kesler was only average defensively in his first year, and he was touted to be a top-end defensive forward from day one and had prior responsibilities in the AHL (which is much more similar than anything Hodgson will get). And IMO, Kesler had a major advantage that would have made it possible for him to step in and be great immediately in his own end-- NHL-ready size, strength, and speed.

I don't see how Hodgson is going to be able to come in raw and be defensively ready on hockey-sense alone, when he's already a little behind the 8-ball in terms of speed and strength at this point. If anything, Schroeder is the one with a chance of stepping right in without missing a beat because of his NHL-ready speed+smarts.

I'm sure he won't be awful, because it's friggen Hodgson we're talking about and maybe he'll be able to adapt ridiculously quickly, but throw another rookie with him right away and you're just asking for trouble.
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That is also the argument used for why Kesler is worth 5m...He's t-23rd in scoring and 12th in center scoring....meaning, this year, he's playing better than most teams forwards and centers in terms of pure points.

Than throw in the rest of what he does.
Exactly. Hell, if he were only a 45-50 point Selke-worthy forward similar to a Madden or a Peca, he could arguably ask for and get 4 million from someone if he were a real ***-hole about it. Now think about that plus 75 points! There's just no way to argue around that, as far as I'm concerned.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 03-27-2010 at 08:02 PM.
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03-27-2010, 08:46 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Even Kesler was only average defensively in his first year, and he was touted to be a top-end defensive forward from day one and had prior responsibilities in the AHL (which is much more similar than anything Hodgson will get). And IMO, Kesler had a major advantage that would have made it possible for him to step in and be great immediately in his own end-- NHL-ready size, strength, and speed.

I don't see how Hodgson is going to be able to come in raw and be defensively ready on hockey-sense alone, when he's already a little behind the 8-ball in terms of speed and strength at this point. If anything, Schroeder is the one with a chance of stepping right in without missing a beat because of his NHL-ready speed+smarts.

I'm sure he won't be awful, because it's friggen Hodgson we're talking about and maybe he'll be able to adapt ridiculously quickly, but throw another rookie with him right away and you're just asking for trouble.
Exactly. Hell, if he were only a 45-50 point Selke-worthy forward similar to a Madden or a Peca, he could arguably ask for and get 4 million from someone if he were a real ***-hole about it. Now think about that plus 75 points! There's just no way to argue around that, as far as I'm concerned.
If Hodgson plays wing I don't think his speed would be too much of an issue for his first season. Just have to use him effectively I think he'll be a fine NHLer.

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