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Luukko: Holmgren's job safe, even if no playoffs

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Old
03-27-2010, 01:04 PM
  #51
Chicken Chaser
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yeah, but they're not realistically going to win the Cup right? Or could they? Even if they're the favorite for the Cup, the odds say they won't win it. They probably won't, but their 1st/2nd round exit this year and every year since 2000 is so effing different from the Flyers right?
seriously? you make some of the dumbest points on here sometimes chief


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03-27-2010, 01:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Some of you guys are un-believable. I get pissed off that im a flyers fan sometimes. Stop looking at the "draft picks that are going to turn into amazing players" and look at the fact we have chris Pronger keeping our play-off dreams alive. See that we have had three freak injuries to goaltenders, and another injury to a star forward
Ok, let's look at other things like contracts given to Hartnell, Briere and the like. Let's look at the farce involving Randy Jones, let's look at the fact we haven't progressed as a side, but now have a very bare prospects cupboard, let's look at the fact we'll probably have to lose JVR/Giroux/Carter because of his mis-handling of the cap, let's look at the fact we have no goalie and no money to sign one with.

Holmgren is doing a poor job.

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03-27-2010, 02:09 PM
  #53
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Ok, let's look at other things like contracts given to Hartnell, Briere and the like. Let's look at the farce involving Randy Jones, let's look at the fact we haven't progressed as a side, but now have a very bare prospects cupboard, let's look at the fact we'll probably have to lose JVR/Giroux/Carter because of his mis-handling of the cap, let's look at the fact we have no goalie and no money to sign one with.

Holmgren is doing a poor job.
Well, I don't think they'll lose JVR/Giroux/Carter. I'm sure that they'll have salary coming off the books when it comes time for JVR/Giroux and Carter. Right now, Carter and Giroux will be RFAs next year and JVR the year after that. Carter will probably get a Richards like contract and unless Giroux and JVR tear it up next year, they'll probably get contracts in the neighbourhood of Parise in New Jersey (I'll never understand how Lou does it, but he continues to get guys to sign for less).

However, I do agree that Holmgren has really screwed up his handling of the team, the finances and the assets that have been presented to him. Some come down hard on me, but when he made the move for Pronger, he had complete tunnel vision on and didn't anticipate any problems that might arise. He threw valuable assets at Anaheim and there were still a lot of holes to fill that he didn't fill. The Flyers were more than a Chris Pronger away from contending for the Stanley Cup and we're seeing the mess of what Holmgren has produced.

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03-27-2010, 04:25 PM
  #54
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Time for Holmgren to go I'm afraid. Yes it might turn out better that he didn't pick up a much needed goalie at the deadline, if he picks up one during free agency, as no assets would be lost. It would be the first time he's ever considered the future mind. One good thing that will come out of this year is that the Flyers will have a 1st round pick in 2011. If Holmgren is still in charge next season don't expect Philly to still possess it by the draft. The throw in 2nd for Carcillo still annoys me, especially when you see Upshall's numbers in Phoenix this year, not great, but how the Flyers could sure use that scoring right about now.

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03-27-2010, 04:27 PM
  #55
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I would buy tickets to the press conference after the season. There is no way Snider would justify this.

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03-27-2010, 04:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Well, I don't think they'll lose JVR/Giroux/Carter. I'm sure that they'll have salary coming off the books when it comes time for JVR/Giroux and Carter. Right now, Carter and Giroux will be RFAs next year and JVR the year after that. Carter will probably get a Richards like contract and unless Giroux and JVR tear it up next year, they'll probably get contracts in the neighbourhood of Parise in New Jersey (I'll never understand how Lou does it, but he continues to get guys to sign for less).

However, I do agree that Holmgren has really screwed up his handling of the team, the finances and the assets that have been presented to him. Some come down hard on me, but when he made the move for Pronger, he had complete tunnel vision on and didn't anticipate any problems that might arise. He threw valuable assets at Anaheim and there were still a lot of holes to fill that he didn't fill. The Flyers were more than a Chris Pronger away from contending for the Stanley Cup and we're seeing the mess of what Holmgren has produced.
Next year we have Gagne, Carter, and Giroux needing new contracts. Plus we will need a new goalie this offseas, and Coburn and Parent are RFA. There will not be much money for Carter and Giroux withoug saying goodbye to Gagne

Holmgren is a very good GM at assessing Talent, but he has made some absolutely boneheaded moves

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03-27-2010, 04:36 PM
  #57
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I have the solution for Holmgren. Simple usage of LTIR.

Danny Briere - Dwarfism
Scott Hartnell - Downsyndrome

I'm no cap genious, but I think that saves us nearly ~10million a year and doesn't hurt our offense one bit.

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Old
03-27-2010, 05:26 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Standards for success? My standard for success is a GM that puts us in a position to win year in and year out, because in the world of professional sports that's the most you can ask for.

Everyone here chirps so much about how they hold winning in the highest regard. That's Holmgren's job. His focus should be winning the Cup. In the end, that's what will keep us competitive. That's what will give us a chance every year.

The reality of the Stanley Cup is that it's nearly impossible to obtain. To get a good seed you have to be virtually injury free. Then you have to try not to be upset by a hot team riding up because of an injured player returning or some deadline moves. Then you have to beat other good teams just like you who have had good luck all year.

I hate to say this boils down to luck, but that's a real major factor in the whole thing.

I don't want your freaking "window." Holmgren doesn't give us a window of 4-5 years.

Holmgren is a General Manager that corrects his mistakes. That kind of GM gives us a long-term window, especially with the young core we have and the organization's reputation as one of the best drafting franchises in NHL history.

I want a good GM who employs good scouts, is a good scout himself, is a presence in the locker room, is involved in the overall atmosphere of the organization, and corrects his mistakes, because I have news for everyone in here. Every GM is going to make mistakes.

What, now you want Burke? So obsessed with playing physically to intimidate teams that he forgets everything else? You want Lou? An old man who has done great things for his organization but is still so loyal, much like Holmgren, that he will take a huge leap of faith with a guy like Rolston?

No world is perfect, and Holmgren doesn't give us a window. If you want your 4-5 year window then move to Pittsburgh. I'll stay where a GM will force this team to stay competitive.

I promise you, if you pick a GM with a 4-5 year window he will fail nine times out of ten regardless of team he has on the ice.

The grass is always greener with you people, and I wish some of you would seriously come to terms with reality.

This is no longer about my philosophies on goaltending or my evaluations of our players/prospects. This is about our organization moving forward. Every organization has severe flaws, but I'll be more than happy to take Holmgren's flaws if it means a chance to win year in and year out.

Do some of you not remember 06-07? How many of those do you want in between every 5 year shot at a Championship? When you think about then you can respond to me.

EDIT: By the way. Everyone here seems to want change right? What happens when that change doesn't work out like you planned? You're willing to toss a good GM on the curb just to fulfill your ever-changing and broad sense of justice? Absolutely ridiculous.
OK, here's my response:

A GM that puts the team in to position to win every year? Uh, this team is so inconsistent they make Charles Manson seem well balanced. They're now on their fourth string goalie after the risky free agent starter, the journeyman career back-up and the waivers claim guy all failed or fell to injuries. Last I checked, you need to make the playoffs to be in a position to win, and there's a real good chance, the Flyers won't be.

Luck is a major factor. However, you can create your own luck, by not giving long contracts with no movement clauses to guys with spotty injury history. You can make hockey sense and smarts more important than brawn when evaluating guys to bring in. You can hedge your bets by getting a goaltender from Nordstrom's instead of the dumpster.

There is a window-Pronger, Briere, even Hartnell give this team a window. That window is smaller if the cap drops.

Holmgren is NOT a GM who corrects his mistakes. He still hasn't addressed the 15 year issue in goal by making the position a priority. He doesn't learn from his past mistakes-see waivers mistakes, NTC's, throwing good money after bad on veterans.

The first thing this organization needs to do-because it hasn't since Keith Allen retired as GM-is to come up with a plan and stick to it for more than 8 months at a time. For a long time it was chasing the Devils, or Ottawa or Buffalo or Pittsburgh and spending a ton to buy a Stanley Cup, with out spending an appropriate amount on top defensemen or goalies.

Finally, we saw the team make a statement they were going to stop trying to catch their own tail, and keep the good young players and not trade the future for a short term shot at a Stanley Cup.

That lasted about one year. This organization rushes it's talented young players, then when they fail, it washes it hands and goes and trades for Pronger.

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03-27-2010, 05:43 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
What, now you want Burke? So obsessed with playing physically to intimidate teams that he forgets everything else? You want Lou? An old man who has done great things for his organization but is still so loyal, much like Holmgren, that he will take a huge leap of faith with a guy like Rolston?
Don't those guys have rings?

What has Holmgren done to correct his mistakes?

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03-27-2010, 05:44 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I would buy tickets to the press conference after the season. There is no way Snider would justify this.
Oh it will happen. Injuries will be used as an excuse, but the reality is that Comcast Specator isn't going to be paying Holmgren to sit on his ass all year long on top of paying Stevens, Jordan, and Stefanski to do the same.

Snider made a business decision to fire Stevens over Jordan in an attempt to rescue the Flyers season (aka playoff revenue), but the Sixers are in such dire straights that we're going to be stuck with Holmgren while they attempt to clear up that mess.

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03-27-2010, 05:46 PM
  #61
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Oh it will happen. Injuries will be used as an excuse, but the reality is that Comcast Specator isn't going to be paying Holmgren to sit on his ass all year long on top of paying Stevens, Jordan, and Stefanski to do the same.

Snider made a business decision to fire Stevens over Jordan in an attempt to rescue the Flyers season (aka playoff revenue), but the Sixers are in such dire straights that we're going to be stuck with Holmgren while they attempt to clear up that mess.
They gave Chris Webber $37.5M just to away. They'll sleep just fine.

Stevens was only signed through this season, was he not?

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03-27-2010, 05:50 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
They gave Chris Webber $37.5M just to away. They'll sleep just fine.

Stevens was only signed through this season, was he not?
Nope, he got an extension, paying him for at least next year, maybe 2.

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03-27-2010, 05:55 PM
  #63
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The Flyers suck.

Boucher is a signing I hated since it was made. Backups should be capable NHL goalies. That is NOT Boucher. He is awful. Since 2000, he was ok with the Sharks last season, that's about it. Boucher is a good backup to Nabakov or Vokoun. Not average Emery.

This team needs to STOP giving huge long term contracts to players over 30. Prongers deal will kill us. Briere is old and on his decline, but still getting PAID for YEARS.

This team needs a good goaltender. Instead, we rely on Leighton, Boucher and Backlund after Ray Emery gets hurt. None of those guys are anything special. Even Emery.

Lavi's system has failed us, or we don't have the correct personal to employ it properly. Our offense is a joke. A JOKE. For a team that pays it's forwards as much as we do, how can our offense blows this bad? We were barely scoring goals WITH Carter. Today, we basically got shutout except for some lucky bounce on an Asham PASS.

This team is going to fail next season without major change.

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03-27-2010, 06:06 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I wipe my behind with what Luukko says. It means nothing, and his presence means nothing.

That said, not really shocked if Holmgren stays.
You are very misinformed if you think Luukko has no influence in the organisation. He's been very present in the media the last few seasons, I'm sure he has just as much influence on Snider than Holmgren does.

Just player development has gone through a huge change since hes been here.

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03-27-2010, 06:10 PM
  #65
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You are very misinformed if you think Luukko has no influence in the organisation. He's been very present in the media the last few seasons, I'm sure he has just as much influence on Snider than Holmgren does.

Just player development has gone through a huge change since hes been here.
Yeah, it moved from across the parking lot to Glens Falls, NY.

Who have they "developed" besides Bartulis and Powe?

JvR and Giroux had half seasons as Phantoms. Backlund was 28 and an established veteran in Europe. Richards and Carter played 3 regular season games in the AHL combined.

Guys who are close to being NHLers get rushed and guys that fail when they get rushed are discarded like a used Trojan.

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03-27-2010, 06:15 PM
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Yeah, it moved from across the parking lot to Glens Falls, NY.

Who have they "developed" besides Bartulis and Powe?

JvR and Giroux had half seasons as Phantoms. Backlund was 28 and an established veteran in Europe. Richards and Carter played 3 regular season games in the AHL combined.

Guys who are close to being NHLers get rushed and guys that fail when they get rushed are discarded like a used Trojan.
Look around the league sir.

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03-27-2010, 06:15 PM
  #67
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Hextall should be our GM
NO MORE FORMER PLAYERS AS GM's!!!!!!!!

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03-27-2010, 06:32 PM
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You are very misinformed if you think Luukko has no influence in the organisation. He's been very present in the media the last few seasons, I'm sure he has just as much influence on Snider than Holmgren does.

Just player development has gone through a huge change since hes been here.
He's answering, but no one's asks him questions.

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03-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #69
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Look around the league sir.
I can look at Pittsburgh and New Jersey and Detroit. All those teams have key players that they developed in their systems for a nuimber of years.

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03-27-2010, 06:37 PM
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He's answering, but no one's asks him questions.
I think it's telling that he was asked the most important question to us Flyers fans.

Let's face it, Luukko is Snider's right hand man. Who do you think runs things while Snider lives in Cali?

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03-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #71
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He's answering, but no one's asks him questions.
It just baffled me that Luukko feels that Flyers fans are that ****ing stupid or blindly loyal.

What you should say is:

"It's been a rough year and we certainly haven't met our own expectations. We feel that the entire body of Paul's work has been pretty good, and we won't use one set criteria to make a determination moving forward. "

I mean, Jesus Christ, I climb telephone poles for a living and I can pull that statement out of my ass. How could Luukko just make such a broad statement?

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03-27-2010, 06:43 PM
  #72
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I think it's telling that he was asked the most important question to us Flyers fans.

Let's face it, Luukko is Snider's right hand man. Who do you think runs things while Snider lives in Cali?
Right. He's the stool pigeon. And three consecutive years of regression is a "great job." Keeping in mind that your team captain and franchise player called him out last year for his cap management.


When you read stories about the Flyers, who still is answering more questions? Snider or Luukko?

In pressers, Snider would get some questions. Luukko has to step on everyone's toes just to have his voice be heard.

It's white noise.

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03-27-2010, 06:47 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Right. He's the stool pigeon. And three consecutive years of regression is a "great job." Keeping in mind that your team captain and franchise player called him out last year for his cap management.


When you read stories about the Flyers, who still is answering more questions? Snider or Luukko?

In pressers, Snider would get some questions. Luukko has to step on everyone's toes just to have his voice be heard.

It's white noise.
Even if you don't put any stock in what he says, Snider has already said Holmgren will not be fired and defended the job he has done. In his most recent interview he claimed someone must have a voodoo doll to cause the Flyers bad luck with injuries. I think Luukko's statement, as idiotic as it was, is exactly what the organization is thinking.

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03-27-2010, 06:51 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Even if you don't put any stock in what he says, Snider has already said Holmgren will not be fired and defended the job he has done. In his most recent interview he claimed someone must have a voodoo doll to cause the Flyers bad luck with injuries. I think Luukko's statement, as idiotic as it was, is exactly what the organization is thinking.
Trust me, if the season ends and the Flyers are #9, they'll have some different things to say.

It's not like the entire team went down at one time. Early in the season Betts and Powe got hurt, then it was Gagne, now it's Carter. And then the goalies.

A true Stanley Cup contender should not have these types of problems with the supposed decimation of the team with injuries. Your big ticket players are supposed to be good enough to pick up the pace.

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03-27-2010, 06:52 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Even if you don't put any stock in what he says, Snider has already said Holmgren will not be fired and defended the job he has done. In his most recent interview he claimed someone must have a voodoo doll to cause the Flyers bad luck with injuries. I think Luukko's statement, as idiotic as it was, is exactly what the organization is thinking.
Then we should be thinking if it's time to stop supporting this organization with our emotions and dollars.

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