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Luukko: Holmgren's job safe, even if no playoffs

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Old
03-27-2010, 05:59 PM
  #76
Scoopyten
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Trust me, if the season ends and the Flyers are #9, they'll have some different things to say.

It's not like the entire team went down at one time. Early in the season Betts and Powe got hurt, then it was Gagne, now it's Carter. And then the goalies.

A true Stanley Cup contender should not have these types of problems with the supposed decimation of the team with injuries. Your big ticket players are supposed to be good enough to pick up the pace.
Here's a thought before I go take my happy pills(AKA beer):

This team has been maddeningly inconsistent for three years, outside of one deep playoff run fueled by an average goalie who got red hot for a couple weeks and a couple of good second third line tweeners that turned into Rocket Richard.

WTF did they do to make anyone think that all thety needed was Pronger to be serious contenders?

Oh well...to the bar

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03-27-2010, 06:02 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Trust me, if the season ends and the Flyers are #9, they'll have some different things to say.

It's not like the entire team went down at one time. Early in the season Betts and Powe got hurt, then it was Gagne, now it's Carter. And then the goalies.

A true Stanley Cup contender should not have these types of problems with the supposed decimation of the team with injuries. Your big ticket players are supposed to be good enough to pick up the pace.
A 9th place finish could very well change their mind, but both Snider's and Luukko's comments indicate that they think the Flyers current fall is a matter of bad luck over injuries. I completely agree with you on the situation, but that doesn't mean they view it the same way. Those of us here have killed Holmgren for failing to acquire a goalie, but Snider defended him and has said in two separate interviews that they've had bad luck with goalies.

At this point I'd be surprised if Holmgren was given the boot even though that would be the wise decision. Snider doesn't even seem to care about the cap issues the way we do. He sounds no different than the handful of kool aid drinkers that post here.

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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Then we should be thinking if it's time to stop supporting this organization with our emotions and dollars.
I completely agree. That's the best way to put pressure on them if we want to see change. I already know multiple season ticket holders that are not renewing because of this debacle of a season.

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03-27-2010, 06:04 PM
  #78
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BTW, Snider was less endearing to the team a recent as March 12 (after the 5-1 loss to Boston, the Flyers still had 7 points in 6 games out of the Olympics).

http://www.csnphilly.com/03/12/10/Sn...53&feedID=5050

Quote:
“We better damn straight make ’em,” Flyers chairman Ed Snider told CSNPhilly.com on Friday, when asked about the team’s playoff grip loosening a bit here.

“After last night, I’m a little bit upset. I hope we’re headed for something. We could end up in eighth and headed for Washington. The way we played last night, the couple games before that, it’s not exciting.”
Since then 5 points in 9 games.

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03-27-2010, 06:08 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Here's a thought before I go take my happy pills(AKA beer):

This team has been maddeningly inconsistent for three years, outside of one deep playoff run fueled by an average goalie who got red hot for a couple weeks and a couple of good second third line tweeners that turned into Rocket Richard.

WTF did they do to make anyone think that all thety needed was Pronger to be serious contenders?

Oh well...to the bar
I think it was because the past two years they had a great offense and the goaltending they were getting was adequate. Defense was the weak link on paper because they were letting up too many shots.

The problem is the Pronger deal caused them to lose scoring depth. The lines are disjointed and have no chemistry. The offense this year is painfully streaky. Their defense is improved because of Pronger, but Parent and Coburn aren't where they expected them to be. The goaltending also has been a complete disaster this year.

They also expected adding vets like Pronger, Lappy, and Betts would fix the inconsistency issues, but it didn't.

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03-27-2010, 06:10 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I think it was because the past two years they had a great offense and the goaltending they were getting was adequate. Defense was the weak link on paper because they were letting up too many shots.

The problem is the Pronger deal caused them to lose scoring depth. The lines are disjointed and have no chemistry. The offense this year is painfully streaky. Their defense is improved because of Pronger, but Parent and Coburn aren't where they expected them to be. The goaltending also has been a complete disaster this year.

They also expected adding vets like Pronger, Lappy, and Betts would fix the inconsistency issues, but it didn't.
Damnit, I don't want logic

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03-27-2010, 06:17 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
BTW, Snider was less endearing to the team a recent as March 12 (after the 5-1 loss to Boston, the Flyers still had 7 points in 6 games out of the Olympics).

http://www.csnphilly.com/03/12/10/Sn...53&feedID=5050



Since then 5 points in 9 games.
This was his most recent interview after the back to back losses to Atlanta:
Quote:
Snider did make a few excuses for the team, suggesting the Olympic break hurt and a strange jinx, too.

“I think there’s somebody putting pins in some goalie voodoo doll somewhere in the world, because I’ve never heard of a team losing two goalies for the season during the season,” Snider lamented. “We had high hopes for Ray Emery and at the beginning of the season he was outstanding. Then he went through some injury problems. We were very fortunate to pick up Michael Leighton. He exceeded our expectations. But we can’t get around it.

“We lost Bernie (Parent). He won two Cups. If he didn’t get hurt, he would have won four or five in a row. Pelle Lindbergh was another Bernie, and you know what happened to him. It just seems that even when we get it right, it doesn’t work.”
That's a lot of excuse making there. I think he is definitely unhappy with the streak and probably will make some changes, but they might come in the form of shipping players out rather than a GM change.

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03-27-2010, 06:22 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Damnit, I don't want logic
Sorry.

I think the problem here is Holmgren doesn't bother to view the big picture and figure out how each piece he adds or removes will have an impact. Clearly losing the forwards we did has hurt the offense this year.

We also seem to have a bad mix of players.

He also overpaid for Pronger. It wasn't very wise to mortgage your future on an aging defenseman especially when you're a cap strapped team that needs these rookie contracts to remain competitive under the cap. I wasn't fond of the deal when it was made although I understood why he thought we were a Pronger away. Now looking where we sit currently that's a deal I wish they could have back. Then again there are several of them.

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03-27-2010, 06:27 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
This was his most recent interview after the back to back losses to Atlanta:


That's a lot of excuse making there. I think he is definitely unhappy with the streak and probably will make some changes, but they might come in the form of shipping players out rather than a GM change.
I too don't think Holmgren will be fired either, but Snider needs to come out and hold him accountable. If Snider takes pride in always having a great team every year, he needs to say that a bad job was done this year. This is not acceptable given the goals of the team this year.

And I don't want a bunch of excuses either. The team was constructed to make up for the fact that their goaltender could be Chris Osgood, and still be able to win.

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03-27-2010, 06:32 PM
  #84
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I wonder if the Flyers management/Holmgren actually looked at the past:

1970-1980: 4 Finals Appearances (Great Goaltending)
1981-1990: 2 Finals Appearances (Great Goaltending)
1991-2000: 1 Finals Appearance (Mediocre Goaltending, had Generational Player/Lindros)
2001-2010: 0 Finals Appearance (Crap Goaltending, No Generational player to carry load)

Solid goaltending got us 6 Finals appearance in our 1st 20 years, and the next 20 years with average goaltending we got 1 Finals appearance (but we had a generation talent like Lindros on the club)...you would think they would have figured it out by now that firing 10 coaches is not the problem.

It saddens me to say at this point Clarke looks like a better option as an interm GM until they can find someone outside the organisation, only ex-Flyers player I would take as a possible candidate is Hextall.

Why the hell did we let Dean Lombardi go!


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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
OK, here's my response:

A GM that puts the team in to position to win every year? Uh, this team is so inconsistent they make Charles Manson seem well balanced. They're now on their fourth string goalie after the risky free agent starter, the journeyman career back-up and the waivers claim guy all failed or fell to injuries. Last I checked, you need to make the playoffs to be in a position to win, and there's a real good chance, the Flyers won't be.

Luck is a major factor. However, you can create your own luck, by not giving long contracts with no movement clauses to guys with spotty injury history. You can make hockey sense and smarts more important than brawn when evaluating guys to bring in. You can hedge your bets by getting a goaltender from Nordstrom's instead of the dumpster.

There is a window-Pronger, Briere, even Hartnell give this team a window. That window is smaller if the cap drops.

Holmgren is NOT a GM who corrects his mistakes. He still hasn't addressed the 15 year issue in goal by making the position a priority. He doesn't learn from his past mistakes-see waivers mistakes, NTC's, throwing good money after bad on veterans.

The first thing this organization needs to do-because it hasn't since Keith Allen retired as GM-is to come up with a plan and stick to it for more than 8 months at a time. For a long time it was chasing the Devils, or Ottawa or Buffalo or Pittsburgh and spending a ton to buy a Stanley Cup, with out spending an appropriate amount on top defensemen or goalies.

Finally, we saw the team make a statement they were going to stop trying to catch their own tail, and keep the good young players and not trade the future for a short term shot at a Stanley Cup.

That lasted about one year. This organization rushes it's talented young players, then when they fail, it washes it hands and goes and trades for Pronger.

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03-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I too don't think Holmgren will be fired either, but Snider needs to come out and hold him accountable. If Snider takes pride in always having a great team every year, he needs to say that a bad job was done this year. This is not acceptable given the goals of the team this year.

And I don't want a bunch of excuses either. The team was constructed to make up for the fact that their goaltender could be Chris Osgood, and still be able to win.
I completely agree. I think they are in for a rude awakening if they think they can just make a bunch of excuses and the fan base will be satisfied. This year is a bigger disgrace than 06-07 and this is a very angry fan base. We are in the middle of a Metsian collapse and have to watch Anaheim get rewarded over our collapse at the draft podium. We have no cap space, picks, or prospects to improve this team next year. They have too many unmovable contracts. Just blaming this on injury isn't going to convince anyone for next season.

Actually come to think of it they might be forced to fire Holmgren because at this point it's the easiest move they can make to appease the fans.

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03-27-2010, 06:44 PM
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I don't know, fans called into WIP year after year claiming they'd never go to another Flyers game until Clarke was fired, and that was starting 1999ish.

Coincidentally, I remember vividly claims that others were satisfied with the 1996 season, even if they lost to the Tampa Bay Lightning in the playoffs. A month later when they lost to the Panthers, less than enthused.

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03-27-2010, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Some of you guys are un-believable. I get pissed off that im a flyers fan sometimes. Stop looking at the "draft picks that are going to turn into amazing players" and look at the fact we have chris Pronger keeping our play-off dreams alive. See that we have had three freak injuries to goaltenders, and another injury to a star forward
Yea seriously. How is it Homer's fault that we suck? This team was predicted by most to come out of the East. That means on paper we are the best team in the East. As a GM thats all you can do is fix the on paper stuff.

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03-27-2010, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Some of you guys are un-believable. I get pissed off that im a flyers fan sometimes. Stop looking at the "draft picks that are going to turn into amazing players" and look at the fact we have chris Pronger keeping our play-off dreams alive. See that we have had three freak injuries to goaltenders, and another injury to a star forward
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Yea seriously. How is it Homer's fault that we suck? This team was predicted by most to come out of the East. That means on paper we are the best team in the East. As a GM thats all you can do is fix the on paper stuff.
It is not the Flyers standard to just make the playoffs.


They didn't trade for Chris Pronger to keep our "playoff dreams alive."

Holmgren changed half the roster every season he's been the GM. It's time to face significant pressure and answer for his miscalculations.

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03-27-2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It is not the Flyers standard to just make the playoffs.


They didn't trade for Chris Pronger to keep our "playoff dreams alive."

Holmgren changed half the roster every season he's been the GM. How long until he's the one to blame?
Absolutely he didnt, he traded for Pronger to put us over the top. He tried this offseason to get a legit goalie in Emery. Emery was lights out till he got hurt. If Homer dosent try and fix the goalie situation for real a la Harding, then he may be to blame. But this is not his fault.

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03-27-2010, 08:59 PM
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Absolutely he didnt, he traded for Pronger to put us over the top. He tried this offseason to get a legit goalie in Emery. Emery was lights out till he got hurt. If Homer dosent try and fix the goalie situation for real a la Harding, then he may be to blame. But this is not his fault.
When he traded for Pronger, he took all the excuses off the table. That includes the goaltending. Boucher was supposed to be the Plan B if Emery didn't work out. He clearly expected Boucher to be able to carry the load, and it's one of the reasons he didn't make a trade at the deadline for a goalie (among others)

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03-27-2010, 09:26 PM
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How can a GM who let the deadline pass without picking up a badly-needed goalie, and who has screwed up the salary cap so there is zero wiggle room be doing a great job? I'd hate to see one who really effed up, in that case.
That GM would be Dale Tallon ,,,,

I am not suprised that Holmgren's not being fired ,,,, As an outsider I think he should be

He should have at very least gotten Biron from Isles at deadline

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03-27-2010, 09:30 PM
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Some of you guys are un-believable. I get pissed off that im a flyers fan sometimes. Stop looking at the "draft picks that are going to turn into amazing players" and look at the fact we have chris Pronger keeping our play-off dreams alive. See that we have had three freak injuries to goaltenders, and another injury to a star forward
This, in a way. Anyone who wants Holmgren fired for the team's standing/performance this season is wanting him fired for the wrong reasons. He assembled a perfectly fine group, except for maybe backup goaltending. He couldn't have predicted a Jekyll-and-Hyde team, a freak amount of injuries at goal, and having nearly all of our top six forwards having down years (Hartnell, Briere, and Richards to an extent).

If you want him fired for, say, the Randy Jones situation or John Stevens or for the cap situation or for not making a move at the deadline then those are all perfectly legitimate reasons. It's wrong in my eyes to blame him for how this season has gone though.

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03-27-2010, 09:30 PM
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if a replacement is to be brought in (hextall) hes should come in this summer. give him camp and a full season to evaluate the whole system top to bottom and have a fresh start with our first rd pick in the next draft (2011). im not saying they should do it only that if they do, this offseason is the time.

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03-27-2010, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
This was his most recent interview after the back to back losses to Atlanta:


That's a lot of excuse making there. I think he is definitely unhappy with the streak and probably will make some changes, but they might come in the form of shipping players out rather than a GM change.
Meh, he's kind of right though. Even if it is an excuse it's a perfectly legitimate one. We've had some pretty shoddy luck at the goalie position.

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03-27-2010, 09:42 PM
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Meh, he's kind of right though. Even if it is an excuse it's a perfectly legitimate one. We've had some pretty shoddy luck at the goalie position.
Yes, but I don't want to hear it as someone who desperately wanted them to acquire a goalie at the deadline. This situation could have been avoided.

Beyond the terrible luck, there's a lot to dislike about this season. They'd still be comfortably in a playoff position despite their goaltending luck if they weren't prone to disappearing for stretches of the season.

I just don't want to hear it. Everyone has injuries.

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03-27-2010, 09:58 PM
  #96
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Yea seriously. How is it Homer's fault that we suck? This team was predicted by most to come out of the East. That means on paper we are the best team in the East. As a GM thats all you can do is fix the on paper stuff.
How is it Homer's fault? He is responsible for acquiring every single player on the roster except for Simon Gagne.

The only GM that is responsible for just the "on paper" stuff is the GM of a fantasy team. The entire mess this team is in stems from Holmgren's inability to implement a plan and stick to that plan.

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03-27-2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
if a replacement is to be brought in (hextall) hes should come in this summer. give him camp and a full season to evaluate the whole system top to bottom and have a fresh start with our first rd pick in the next draft (2011). im not saying they should do it only that if they do, this offseason is the time.
Obviously the off season is the time. The LAST thing I want to see is another Good Ol Boy hiring. Get somebody from outside the organization-no Hextall, no Dave Brown, no Clarke-who has a track record in the NHL or minor pro as a guy who knows how to build a team and go from there.

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03-27-2010, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
That GM would be Dale Tallon ,,,,

I am not suprised that Holmgren's not being fired ,,,, As an outsider I think he should be

He should have at very least gotten Biron from Isles at deadline
Tallon at least kept all this draft picks, prospects and such. The Blackhawks are not in stagnation. Even if they were to take a step back next season, they're still on the up.

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03-27-2010, 10:04 PM
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Meh, he's kind of right though. Even if it is an excuse it's a perfectly legitimate one. We've had some pretty shoddy luck at the goalie position.
If the Flyers followed the Keith Allen plan, and made goaltending a priority, instead of treating it like 3rd line LW, they wouldn't have shoddy "luck".

They entrusted the goaltending job to Ray Emery. That was a gamble, just because of the off-ice stuff. Holmgren then banked that if anything happened to Emery, be it injury or off ice issues, Boucher could handle the load.

Epic Fail

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03-27-2010, 10:06 PM
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This, in a way. Anyone who wants Holmgren fired for the team's standing/performance this season is wanting him fired for the wrong reasons. He assembled a perfectly fine group, except for maybe backup goaltending. He couldn't have predicted a Jekyll-and-Hyde team, a freak amount of injuries at goal, and having nearly all of our top six forwards having down years (Hartnell, Briere, and Richards to an extent).

If you want him fired for, say, the Randy Jones situation or John Stevens or for the cap situation or for not making a move at the deadline then those are all perfectly legitimate reasons. It's wrong in my eyes to blame him for how this season has gone though.
I want him fired because for three seasons he has been the manager of a brutally inconsistent team that has more talent than it has shown.

He's handcuffed himself with several horrible contracts, wasted assets such as draft choices and cap room, failed to address some glaring holes that have been here since he took the job, and worst of all, has failed to set up a standard of accountability.

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