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Old
03-27-2010, 05:12 PM
  #26
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It would have been four, but the Lightning were stupid enough to take Mikael Renberg and Karl Dykhuis instead.

Briere was a Don Luce person. They brought Don Luce from Buffalo, when Buffalo was the model team of the new NHL.


The real question to ask about that is since when did the Philadelphia Flyers want to be Buffalo?
After Buffalo knocked us out of the first round The Flyers seemed to change their draft strategy that year to reflect the Buffalo model, but then the Ducks won the next year and they went back to drafting for size and toughness.

I think Briere was just brought in because he was the highest scoring forward and that 06-07 team had no offense. It was just stupid to sign a center to a huge contract for 8 years when you have two centers developing.

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03-27-2010, 05:15 PM
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You Phillies fans enjoyed making fun of the choking/injured Mets for a few years now - now prepare to feel the pain.

I'm a fan of both so I'm pretty much on sports suicide watch.

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03-27-2010, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mypetmeatball View Post
You Phillies fans enjoyed making fun of the choking/injured Mets for a few years now - now prepare to feel the pain.

I'm a fan of both so I'm pretty much on sports suicide watch.
35 years of pain. No preperation needed.

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03-27-2010, 05:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by mypetmeatball View Post
You Phillies fans enjoyed making fun of the choking/injured Mets for a few years now - now prepare to feel the pain.

I'm a fan of both so I'm pretty much on sports suicide watch.
Well on the bright side as a Phillies fan, they will wash away the memories of this painful season and I'll be entertained watching the Marlins and Mets battle it out for third place.

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03-27-2010, 05:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
After Buffalo knocked us out of the first round The Flyers seemed to change their draft strategy that year to reflect the Buffalo model, but then the Ducks won the next year and they went back to drafting for size and toughness.

I think Briere was just brought in because he was the highest scoring forward and that 06-07 team had no offense. It was just stupid to sign a center to a huge contract for 8 years when you have two centers developing.
One of which was projected to be a 3rd line guy good for 60 points in his career year. People forget that.

The Briere signing was bad, no doubt, but it wasn't what is killing us now. All of the little **** ups have added up with a quickness. Imagine this team without the resurgence of Gagne... a player that may not be around much longer.

Hell, imagine this team with ****ing Happy Cake Oven coaching it... that's scary.

The goalie issue is a joke right now. I am sure that Duchesne is going to get at least one start since Boucher can't play every remaining game and Backlund's groin issues mean he's probably done, too. So, we'll have an ECHL goalie (and one not named Quick) for at least one game.

Hartnell's personal life has made this season a waste for him. So, he's a shadow of last year's form.

This team is going to be a 6 to 10 seed for the next 5 years unless something drastic happens.

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03-27-2010, 05:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ugh. At this point it's a combination of everything. It isn't just the scoring, it isn't just the defense, it isn't just the goalies, and it isn't just the injuries. It's everything. This season has been a picture perfect Murphy's Law season. Not making excuses, but throughout the entire season the team just hasn't gotten the bounces and have not played well when they needed to. In an 82 game season you need to play well throughout and get some bounces. Flyers have done neither. Ugh.
What can you do?

And what can I do?

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03-27-2010, 05:43 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
One of which was projected to be a 3rd line guy good for 60 points in his career year. People forget that.

The Briere signing was bad, no doubt, but it wasn't what is killing us now. All of the little **** ups have added up with a quickness. Imagine this team without the resurgence of Gagne... a player that may not be around much longer.

Hell, imagine this team with ****ing Happy Cake Oven coaching it... that's scary.

The goalie issue is a joke right now. I am sure that Duchesne is going to get at least one start since Boucher can't play every remaining game and Backlund's groin issues mean he's probably done, too. So, we'll have an ECHL goalie (and one not named Quick) for at least one game.

Hartnell's personal life has made this season a waste for him. So, he's a shadow of last year's form.

This team is going to be a 6 to 10 seed for the next 5 years unless something drastic happens.
Yeah, that's fair about Richards, but at the same time they would have been better off with a stop gap instead of blowing their cap load as soon as they have some space. Briere was never really a good investment. He was a classic case of a player coming off a contract year and they invested almost a decade into him. At his age they knew some of his declining years were going to happen while under contract with us.

I think Briere's contract is the biggest one killing us under the cap. He's our highest paid player and is only a supporting player. That's not acceptable for his cap hit.

As for the rest, I agree. I think they are going to have to finally decide to get a goalie in here no matter what it takes. If someone like Price is available they are going to have to swallow hard and do what it takes to get him. They can't keep putting a band aid on the wound.

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03-27-2010, 05:45 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yeah, that's fair about Richards, but at the same time they would have been better off with a stop gap instead of blowing their cap load as soon as they have some space. Briere was never really a good investment. He was a classic case of a player coming off a contract year and they invested almost a decade into him. At his age they knew some of his declining years were going to happen while under contract with us.

I think Briere's contract is the biggest one killing us under the cap. He's our highest paid player and is only a supporting player. That's not acceptable for his cap hit.

As for the rest, I agree. I think they are going to have to finally decide to get a goalie in here no matter what it takes. If someone like Price is available they are going to have to swallow hard and do what it takes to get him. They can't keep putting a band aid on the wound.
Goaltenders are a dime a dozen, we'll just trade Coburn for an elite young G, don't you worry.

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03-27-2010, 05:47 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Goaltenders are a dime a dozen, we'll just trade Coburn for an elite young G, don't you worry.
I'm about at the point to do Giroux for Price if they'd take that.

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03-27-2010, 05:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
I'm about at the point to do Giroux for Price if they'd take that.
I've been saying this for weeks.

But we're just the retards who wanted a 3rd line C and reliable goaltending in July, so what do we know right?

If we went to MTL at the deadline and said, "Giroux for Price/Halak", do they really say no? Might be able to even wrangle a pick or two out of them or get Metro back.

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03-27-2010, 05:54 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I've been saying this for weeks.

But we're just the retards who wanted a 3rd line C and reliable goaltending in July, so what do we know right?

If we went to MTL at the deadline and said, "Giroux for Price/Halak", do they really say no? Might be able to even wrangle a pick or two out of them or get Metro back.
I know he is from Ontario but if he spoke French, there'd be extra pressure from Fans to do that trade.

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03-27-2010, 05:54 PM
  #37
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Sigh... back with the Giroux for Price thing.

You people just dont let it die do you? If I said JVR for Price, Id have my head on a platter.

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03-27-2010, 05:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Sigh... back with the Giroux for Price thing.

You people just dont let it die do you?
I was never on that bandwagon but a goalie is far more important than Giroux will ever be and I love the silly *******.

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03-27-2010, 05:57 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Sigh... back with the Giroux for Price thing.

You people just dont let it die do you? If I said JVR for Price, Id have my head on a platter.
You know, for the amount of BJs Giroux gets around here, you'd assume he's on pace for a 75 point season instead of a 45 point season and a -8 rating.

JVR clearly has a much higher ceiling than Giroux, that's why most of us want to keep him.

I like Giroux, but people need to start facing reality here.

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03-27-2010, 06:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You know, for the amount of BJs Giroux gets around here, you'd assume he's on pace for a 75 point season instead of a 45 point season and a -8 rating.

JVR clearly has a much higher ceiling than Giroux, that's why most of us want to keep him.

I like Giroux, but people need to start facing reality here.
Due to his size and lack of effectiveness at center, Giroux won't be a 100 point player. But he'll grab 75ish in his prime. But a 75 point playmaker is nowhere close to the value of a legit, top 10 goalie who is young. Now, Halak and Price aren't there yet. But they have high ceilings and can be a longterm solution. And you need to give value to get value. I just don't see how Giroux for Price or Halak is not reasonable.

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03-27-2010, 06:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You know, for the amount of BJs Giroux gets around here, you'd assume he's on pace for a 75 point season instead of a 45 point season and a -8 rating.

JVR clearly has a much higher ceiling than Giroux, that's why most of us want to keep him.

I like Giroux, but people need to start facing reality here.
On the same token, people probably shouldn't be expecting a 75 point year out of a 1st/2nd year player essentially playing third line center with little power play time. If the veteran forwards were not collectively having down years his production wouldn't be called into question

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03-27-2010, 06:08 PM
  #42
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Here's a good thread to place my assessment of this season and the two others before it:

A week ago, after the loss to Ottawa, I called into WIP and spoke with Brian Startare. I was furious enough to wait on the phone for fifteen minutes and still have enough energy left to take out my anger. My main point of the conversation was how terrible of a GM I thought Paul Holmgren was. I bashed his distribution of No movement clauses, his cap management, and the signing of Boucher. One thing I distinctly remember was complaining about the NMCs given to Briere and Hartnell and saying (now this is in the heat of anger after a huge loss), "didn't Homer think that if these guys didn't perform up to expectations that they could be moved for something more valuable or picks to spark a rebuilding?" Startare replied with something to the effect of NMCs were common during that off-season and were pretty much the only way those players would be able to sign. So after realizing that and coming to agree with it, I still decided to place the blame on Paul Holmgren for structuring a team that has no commitment, chemistry, or confidence.

I then realized after saying that, how could I blame Homer for that? How was he supposed to know that Danny Briere's best seasons would end in Buffalo, or that Hartnell would impress everyone with a sixty point season only to have it forgotten by a terrible slumping season? I finally, after being blind to the whole truth for the last three seasons, realized that this team was just not good enough. Sure the talent is there, sure the good mix of veterans and young players are there; but the most important parts have vanished somewhere in between. The drive, the confidence and chemistry is not there.

On paper, Paul Holmgren (over the last 3 years) put together a deep and well balanced team with strong defense and adequate goaltending (only 07-08 and 08-09) that could be chosen for a cup contender easily. Paper. That's the case, ON PAPER. Mike Richards, Simon Gagne, Jeff Carter, Daniel Briere, Scott Hartnell; these are names that can be synonymous with production. But is it there? It can be. Is it consistent? Hell no. The fact of the matter is that this team just isn't as good as what they're made out to be. If paper could win cups, then we'd have sure as hell chances to have one in the last few years.

The only things we can blame Holmgren for doing is bad cap management (Jones, other various contracts) and signing a washed up back up. I'm not picking on Boosh, but its obvious that he's lost it...all.

I'm ready for another rebuild. I want to give Paul another chance. I'd love to see a serious change in the makeup of this team, even if it has to do with trading Carter, Coburn, Briere(if possible), etc. Build this team around Richards, Pronger, Giroux and JVR.

Thanks for reading this post, please feel free to pick it apart.

Nonetheless, go
Who didn't know that Briere's best seasons would end in Buffalo? He was coming off of a 95 point season on a team that was clicking all season offensively. Plus being a small forward and being 29. I thought it was clear that he would be trending downward from there on out. Not to say he would be bad right away, but he had peaked already.

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03-27-2010, 06:10 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Due to his size and lack of effectiveness at center, Giroux won't be a 100 point player. But he'll grab 75ish in his prime. But a 75 point playmaker is nowhere close to the value of a legit, top 10 goalie who is young. Now, Halak and Price aren't there yet. But they have high ceilings and can be a longterm solution. And you need to give value to get value. I just don't see how Giroux for Price or Halak is not reasonable.
I am not 100% against the idea, however from a cost standpoint I think it would make a lot more sense to try to clear real salary first and address the goaltending in that way. Price and Halak are going to be making a lot more money (RFA this year, I think?). Having JVR and Giroux next year when we can expect more from them at their cost would be a big benefit

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03-27-2010, 06:12 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You know, for the amount of BJs Giroux gets around here, you'd assume he's on pace for a 75 point season instead of a 45 point season and a -8 rating.

JVR clearly has a much higher ceiling than Giroux, that's why most of us want to keep him.

I like Giroux, but people need to start facing reality here.
Whats wrong with him on wing? He plays with more heart then Briere and Hartnell and a few other players. Where is the JR ceiling at?Draft position? Age? Size? People said the same about Richie and now we see where he is. I think it would be a HUGE mistake to get rid of him. Young goalies are more of a mystery then young forwards are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Due to his size and lack of effectiveness at center, Giroux won't be a 100 point player. But he'll grab 75ish in his prime. But a 75 point playmaker is nowhere close to the value of a legit, top 10 goalie who is young. Now, Halak and Price aren't there yet. But they have high ceilings and can be a longterm solution. And you need to give value to get value. I just don't see how Giroux for Price or Halak is not reasonable.
Like I said above, I think young goalies are more of a question mark then young forwards are. Most of the Price hype is based off of the few games he has played, his draft position, and Hab fans (which at the moment are split between him and Halak).

I still think it wouldnt cost Giroux to get Price or Halak.And plus, well what it said in the media, they didnt trade Giroux or JVR for Kovalchuk. Clear salary on these 30 yr old players that arent doing that much better then the younger guys (see Briere and Hartnell). Then either sign a free agent that was actually proven, or draft one. Thats what most teams do. They dont trade one of their best young players.

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03-27-2010, 06:15 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Due to his size and lack of effectiveness at center, Giroux won't be a 100 point player. But he'll grab 75ish in his prime. But a 75 point playmaker is nowhere close to the value of a legit, top 10 goalie who is young. Now, Halak and Price aren't there yet. But they have high ceilings and can be a longterm solution. And you need to give value to get value. I just don't see how Giroux for Price or Halak is not reasonable.
I do like Giroux, but at this point, there are some serious questions about goalscoring ability which really hurt his 1st line potential. I mean, I have questions on whether he'll ever be a 25 goal scorer and if you look at the guys over 70 points last season, only a couple of them were below 25 goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
On the same token, people probably shouldn't be expecting a 75 point year out of a 1st/2nd year player essentially playing third line center with little power play time. If the veteran forwards were not collectively having down years his production wouldn't be called into question
I'm not expecting 75 points, I'm just saying that he's drastically overvalued by the Flyers fan base.

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03-27-2010, 06:18 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Whats wrong with him on wing? He plays with more heart then Briere and Hartnell and a few other players. Where is the JR ceiling at?Draft position? Age? Size? People said the same about Richie and now we see where he is. I think it would be a HUGE mistake to get rid of him. Young goalies are more of a mystery then young forwards are.
I certainly prefer Giroux to Briere and Harts, but at this point, we need to face reality and accept that these guys are essentially untradeable.

And I mean, Giroux is going to be a great player, but I think he'll always be a complimentary guy, not a meal ticket guy.

Price is a guy who's started 127 games at a .912 save percentage. Halak has started 90 games at a .918. Not much mystery there to me, not often you see 22 or 23 year-old goalies with that kind of track record already.

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03-27-2010, 06:29 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I still think it wouldnt cost Giroux to get Price or Halak.And plus, well what it said in the media, they didnt trade Giroux or JVR for Kovalchuk. Clear salary on these 30 yr old players that arent doing that much better then the younger guys (see Briere and Hartnell). Then either sign a free agent that was actually proven, or draft one. Thats what most teams do. They dont trade one of their best young players.
Obviously, if you can move some dead weight to get a goalie, you do that. But I think that you need to look at just how few goalies there are that have done what Price has done at a similar age. He's already a legitimate NHL player (whether you think he's an all-star or anything like that is obviously a different matter) and there aren't many goalies that can say that at his age.

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03-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #48
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Alright, I am all for moving Briere, but how can you? Who would take him with that salary? How can the Flyers realistically get rid of Briere? Send him to the minors? Buy him out?

What do you think is the most probably option?

Also, if they could dump that salary, how would Kovalchuk fit in in Philly, supposing for a hallucinogenic idiotic moment that the Flyers could get him?

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03-27-2010, 06:42 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Goaltenders are a dime a dozen, we'll just trade Coburn for an elite young G, don't you worry.
But teams make their goalies. Why trade Coburn for an elite goalie when we can win with any dime a dozen goalie?

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Sigh... back with the Giroux for Price thing.

You people just dont let it die do you? If I said JVR for Price, Id have my head on a platter.
Personally I'd trade either of them for him. I am high on both of our players, but Price is a rarer commodity than those two. Plus he would be our best chance at getting an elite netminder. We'd just be getting him before he reaches his prime.

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03-27-2010, 06:52 PM
  #50
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Only real trading chips we have are Richards (before his NMC clause kicks in and his 10 year contract), Giroux and Parent. All others have no value or can't be moved because of Homer's NTC/NMC's.

Some possibilities:

Trade Richards & Parent for a top flight winger like Nash (if possible).

Trade Giroux and "X" for Cory Schneider from Vancouver.

Trade any forward on the club for Vokun.

Keep the our defense intact (Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Krajicek and Bartulis).

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