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Old
03-29-2010, 11:48 AM
  #26
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I see Avery has been ruled out for tomorrow along with Cally

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03-29-2010, 12:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Has there ever been more chat or adulation towards a player that averages around 20 points a year?

The thing he is most popular for is taunting opponents on the ice. Wow, that's great.

For those that love fighting, he doesn't even do that.

Image wins over substance. Again.
wait.

aves fights. hes more than willing. ive seen him in some pretty serious scraps this season and last and hes won his fair share too.

hes a polarizing figure. you either love him or hate him.

hes hardly the problem with this bunch of misfits.

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Old
03-29-2010, 12:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
wait.

aves fights. hes more than willing. ive seen him in some pretty serious scraps this season and last and hes won his fair share too.

hes a polarizing figure. you either love him or hate him.

hes hardly the problem with this bunch of misfits
.
True, but one day I hope that this team will be legit and I don't really want this guy on that team. For now he's fine, but down the road we have to cut the Avery cord.

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03-29-2010, 12:46 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
True, but one day I hope that this team will be legit and I don't really want this guy on that team. For now he's fine, but down the road we have to cut the Avery cord.

Like it or not, a key component of many "legit" or successful teams is that type of player..a pest or agitator.

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Old
03-29-2010, 12:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by wolfzr2 View Post
Like it or not, a key component of many "legit" or successful teams is that type of player..a pest or agitator.
Yeah but not Sean. He's unlike many successful pests of the past, and eventually I think he hurts more than he helps. I'm a fan, just not that big a fan of what he brings to the table on a team that is ready to win a Cup.

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03-29-2010, 01:08 PM
  #31
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You dont win cups with people like sean avery. you win cups with players like claud lemieux. Lemieux was even more hated than avery. a lot more.

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Old
03-29-2010, 01:22 PM
  #32
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Avery is a solid third line agitator also would be great on the fourth line but that happens only if your team is really stacked. His teamates like Callahan and Dubinsky have said Avery energizes the bench. Wow what an awful guy to have on the team . You can win with Sean Avery, if I remember correctly his play had a lot to do with the rangers even making the playoffs in past years. Avery is far from the problem its more like lack of scoring from your top 6 and and having a joke of a blueline.

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Old
03-29-2010, 01:32 PM
  #33
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I don't disagree that Avery has helped this team win and that he's a liked member of the team and that he's been an entertaining guy while we remain mediocre. He's like one of my faves as a youngster, Tie Domi. But we won without him, we surrounded the core of that team with talented all around hockey players who were committed to winning at all costs and we won.

Maybe Sean's part of whatever great success could come our way, but he's on a very short leash and he's getting a few years older, hopefully wiser.

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Old
03-29-2010, 01:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
20 points per season? LOL. Right.

Doesn't fight? Yeah, you're right, he's only fought 7 times this season. What a rarity.

It's cool if people want to hate Avery, but let's not just make **** up. You only make yourself look ignorant.
I will generously throw out his first two seasons so as to help you and in return, delete his one year where he was a worthwhile hockey player. After this long a career, it is clearly an aberration.

Using the rest of the data, I stand corrected. He is very barely a 30 point player. You're right, it's been an illustrious career. He should be the only Ranger on the team and they should max his contract.

We'll pay no attention to the mutiple suspensions, the antics that put him in the penalty box all of the time (even when he doesn't deserve it), his stupidity in last year's playoffs and the fact that he is publicly hated by his teammates after he leaves. What a great asset.

His fans crave sizzle more than beef. And before anyone raises the issue about the team winning when he's in the lineup, (which used to be somewhat true), the same deal existed for Malik yet he was crucified.

Another funny thing is how everyone whines about Crosby's whining. Avery whines more than anyone in the game. Face it, if he were on another team, you'd hate his guts. Guys like that, I hate even if they are wearing the hometeam sweater.

But I'm ignorant.


Last edited by chosen: 03-29-2010 at 02:01 PM.
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Old
03-29-2010, 01:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
wait.

aves fights. hes more than willing. ive seen him in some pretty serious scraps this season and last and hes won his fair share too.

hes a polarizing figure. you either love him or hate him.

hes hardly the problem with this bunch of misfits.
It's true. He will fight the little guys. The point is that he is not an intimidating physical presence. Not even a little bit.

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03-29-2010, 02:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
It's true. He will fight the little guys. The point is that he is not an intimidating physical presence. Not even a little bit.
I am not picking a side of pro or anti-Avery but he does fight guys bigger than him most of the time. Malone, Clarkson, Hartnell, all much bigger than Avery and that is just off the top of my head for who has fought this season.

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:25 PM
  #37
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I like Sean. When he's on he's an asset.

But, he lets everyone know when he gets knocked down and thinks he should get a call. Sid does the same thing.

It's gotten to the point where the MSG cameras are ready with a close up to see his arms flailing around or a "why no call" look as he sits on the ice.

Again, I like Sean but I'm surprised he isn't called for diving more often....more for the display then a dive.

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:27 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I will generously throw out his first two seasons so as to help you and in return, delete his one year where he was a worthwhile hockey player. After this long a career, it is clearly an aberration.

Using the rest of the data, I stand corrected. He is very barely a 30 point player. You're right, it's been an illustrious career. He should be the only Ranger on the team and they should max his contract.

We'll pay no attention to the mutiple suspensions, the antics that put him in the penalty box all of the time (even when he doesn't deserve it), his stupidity in last year's playoffs and the fact that he is publicly hated by his teammates after he leaves. What a great asset.

His fans crave sizzle more than beef. And before anyone raises the issue about the team winning when he's in the lineup, (which used to be somewhat true), the same deal existed for Malik yet he was crucified.

Another funny thing is how everyone whines about Crosby's whining. Avery whines more than anyone in the game. Face it, if he were on another team, you'd hate his guts. Guys like that, I hate even if they are wearing the hometeam sweater.

But I'm ignorant.
I like Avery. I wouldn't argue with Bluenote13 that some day we might get past him like we did with Domi and be better for it but a couple comments on this.

First, he has only been suspended once by the NHL and it was for an off the ice issue.

Second, this year he has 31 pts. in 69 games. In 08-09 he had 22 in only 41 which would pro rate out to a 44 pt. season. In 07-08 he had 33 pts. in 57 games--which again would prorate him somewhere closer to 50 pts. In 06-07 he had 48 pts. in 84 games and in 05-06 he had 39 pts in 75 games. Those totals five years in a row make him at least a 40 point player at least when he stays healthy and since there have been a couple instances of that--that is where I would put him.

For the $2 mil we are paying him he's ahead of our captain in points this season who we're paying over $7 mil per for. If anything Sean gets even less pwp time than Chris does.

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:29 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I will generously throw out his first two seasons so as to help you and in return, delete his one year where he was a worthwhile hockey player. After this long a career, it is clearly an aberration.

Using the rest of the data, I stand corrected. He is very barely a 30 point player. You're right, it's been an illustrious career. He should be the only Ranger on the team and they should max his contract.

We'll pay no attention to the mutiple suspensions, the antics that put him in the penalty box all of the time (even when he doesn't deserve it), his stupidity in last year's playoffs and the fact that he is publicly hated by his teammates after he leaves. What a great asset.

His fans crave sizzle more than beef. And before anyone raises the issue about the team winning when he's in the lineup, (which used to be somewhat true), the same deal existed for Malik yet he was crucified.

Another funny thing is how everyone whines about Crosby's whining. Avery whines more than anyone in the game. Face it, if he were on another team, you'd hate his guts. Guys like that, I hate even if they are wearing the hometeam sweater.

But I'm ignorant.
Look, I didn't say that people can't have valid reasons to dislike Sean Avery. Never have I said anything close to that. I said you make yourself look ignorant when you say things like he averages 20 points and never fights, which are both clear fallacies. Nothing else. And then you come back with things like "multiple suspensions," which is again untrue.

If you want to hate Avery, fine, you're entitled to. But at least get your facts straight... And don't tell me about why Avery fans like Avery, being that I am one and you're not. I think I know why I like the player, ya know?

EDIT: I stand corrected on the suspension. I forgot that LAK told him to stay away from the team toward the end of his tenure. My mistake.

Still, the comments about fighting, his offensive contributions and the "sizzle over beef", I stand by. Which was my original point...hate him if you want, but base the hatred in reality.

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Last edited by nyr2k2: 03-29-2010 at 02:55 PM.
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Old
03-29-2010, 02:31 PM
  #40
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Did I miss out on an Avery roast? Shucks.

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:40 PM
  #41
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http://rangers.nhl.com/club/recap.htm?id=2009021113

Quote:
“He’s probably playing his best hockey of the year, and it hurts the club,” Tortorella said of losing Avery. “He’s been a really big part of us trying to find a way, and that’s a tough break, not only for him, but more importantly for the hockey club.”

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03-29-2010, 03:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
And before anyone raises the issue about the team winning when he's in the lineup, (which used to be somewhat true), the same deal existed for Malik yet he was crucified.
That's not really fair though, me and you both regularly used the argument that Marek helped the team win games in his defence. If you were willing to use that argument for Malik then you should accept it with Avery.
I think Avery is a useful player for the team. Although I can't disagree that he has numerous faults I think he makes the team better in general.

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Old
03-29-2010, 03:47 PM
  #43
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The Rangers site referring to Locke as "the newest Ranger" makes it sound like Avery is done for a while.

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03-29-2010, 04:15 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I like Avery. I wouldn't argue with Bluenote13 that some day we might get past him like we did with Domi and be better for it but a couple comments on this.

First, he has only been suspended once by the NHL and it was for an off the ice issue.

Second, this year he has 31 pts. in 69 games. In 08-09 he had 22 in only 41 which would pro rate out to a 44 pt. season. In 07-08 he had 33 pts. in 57 games--which again would prorate him somewhere closer to 50 pts. In 06-07 he had 48 pts. in 84 games and in 05-06 he had 39 pts in 75 games. Those totals five years in a row make him at least a 40 point player at least when he stays healthy and since there have been a couple instances of that--that is where I would put him.

For the $2 mil we are paying him he's ahead of our captain in points this season who we're paying over $7 mil per for. If anything Sean gets even less pwp time than Chris does.
Not every Ranger story has to involve whipping boys Drury and Redden. It's not my fault that Avery doesn't play full seasons very often. That is a negative, not a positive. Staying healthy is an asset.

My central point remains the same: The amount of ink he receives is incredibly disproportionate to the positives he brings to the team.

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03-29-2010, 04:22 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Not every Ranger story has to involve whipping boys Drury and Redden. It's not my fault that Avery doesn't play full seasons very often. That is a negative, not a positive. Staying healthy is an asset.

My central point remains the same: The amount of ink he receives is incredibly disproportionate to the positives he brings to the team.
Had you said that and that only in your original post, I would have agreed.

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03-29-2010, 04:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Look, I didn't say that people can't have valid reasons to dislike Sean Avery. Never have I said anything close to that. I said you make yourself look ignorant when you say things like he averages 20 points and never fights, which are both clear fallacies. Nothing else. And then you come back with things like "multiple suspensions," which is again untrue.

If you want to hate Avery, fine, you're entitled to. But at least get your facts straight... And don't tell me about why Avery fans like Avery, being that I am one and you're not. I think I know why I like the player, ya know?

EDIT: I stand corrected on the suspension. I forgot that LAK told him to stay away from the team toward the end of his tenure. My mistake.

Still, the comments about fighting, his offensive contributions and the "sizzle over beef", I stand by. Which was my original point...hate him if you want, but base the hatred in reality.
He doesn't stay healthy. He is hated whenever he leaves a team (sometimes before, remember Modano). He isn't a scorer, by any definition. He intimidates no one with his antics. He whines to the refs incessantly. The refs can't stand him, and yes that's his fault, and costs the team he is on. He cost the Rangers dearly in the playoffs against Washington last season.

Those are all blatant negatives. What are his positives, other than some of the fans get a kick out of his antics?

I went overboard in my original post because I regard him as a gigantic negative. Apologies for that. Now instead of insulting a poster, why not post his positives.

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03-29-2010, 04:26 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
That's not really fair though, me and you both regularly used the argument that Marek helped the team win games in his defence. If you were willing to use that argument for Malik then you should accept it with Avery.
I think Avery is a useful player for the team. Although I can't disagree that he has numerous faults I think he makes the team better in general.
You're misunderstanding me, I think.

If the team winning with one guy is proof of worth, it's proof of worth for another player. I just want consistency in arguments.

Posters who cite one and discount the other are being a little disingenuous.

Avery helped when the Rangers first acquired him. Since then, no.

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Old
03-29-2010, 04:28 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
He doesn't stay healthy. He is hated whenever he leaves a team (sometimes before, remember Modano). He isn't a scorer, by any definition. He intimidates no one with his antics. He whines to the refs incessantly. The refs can't stand him, and yes that's his fault, and costs the team he is on. He cost the Rangers dearly in the playoffs against Washington last season.

Those are all blatant negatives. What are his positives, other than some of the fans get a kick out of his antics?

I went overboard in my original post because I regard him as a gigantic negative. Apologies for that. Now instead of insulting a poster, why not post his positives.
Because I've posted what I view as his positives about a billion times in the 547546845 Avery threads we have each season. It's not an argument worth rehashing, IMO.

Again...I don't dispute your "central point." I agree with it, in fact. I'm not trying to argue with you about his value, or change your opinion of him as a player. The ONLY reason I said anything at all was because of the factual inaccuracies in your first post. If that was hyperbole that I didn't pick up on, and I offended you with the "look ignorant" bit, I apologize.

I don't go looking for Avery arguments, since I know how polarizing he is. It's like talking politics. So, again, sorry. I'm done now.


Last edited by nyr2k2: 03-29-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Old
03-29-2010, 04:36 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Not every Ranger story has to involve whipping boys Drury and Redden. It's not my fault that Avery doesn't play full seasons very often. That is a negative, not a positive. Staying healthy is an asset.

My central point remains the same: The amount of ink he receives is incredibly disproportionate to the positives he brings to the team.

If we're talking bang for the buck Drury and Redden certainly belong in the conversation.

And it's not as if you're honestly assessing Avery when you call him a 20 point player. Over the last five seasons even with all the games missed he has 173 points which averages to 35 actual points per season which is good production for a third line winger even without the intangibles he brings.

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03-29-2010, 04:44 PM
  #50
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Avery has 31 points this seasn while averaging about 13 minutes per game playing with guys of inferior offensive abilities. Is that the worst production one can get from a guy whose being paid $2MM per season.

I'm not a fan by any stretch of the imagination as I have my issues with him, the main issue being his ability to play consistent, but I guess that's why he's getting $2MM per season and averaging under 14 minutes per game while bouncing around from line to line and changing roles here and there.

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