HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

Letang Offer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-29-2010, 09:45 AM
  #126
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastcupever75 View Post
there was one today where he was leading the rush and still was the closest guy back to the leaf on the break away.

thats on the foward who were last to come into the zone (sid,max)
Over the last 4 or 5 games, there have been numerous breakaways. I almost positive all of them had Letang on the ice, and Goligoski has been on there for a good portion too.

Fleury has sucked lately, but he has also been completely left out to dry on many occasions.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 10:18 AM
  #127
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Bouwmeester is actually a pretty good comparison for Letang. Not in terms of his worth on the open market at this stage of his career, but in terms of game. Bouwmeester is a little better skater (he's better than anyone in the league, quite frankly) and more polished defensively. Letang has the greater offensive upside and is also the more confident player with the puck. Bouwmeester's defensive-zone coverage is better.

The bottom line for Letang, imo, is that we need to alleviate some of the pressure the defensemen currently have with regards to putting up points. If we could upgrade the wings and not count so heavily on blue-line scoring, it would be a great boost to Letang imo.

I don't think we'd be in too bad a shape on defense next season with Letang, Goligoski and Leopold as the guys expected to put up a few points, with Orpik, Lovejoy or Despres and a physical 6th D man...as long as we're getting better winger production.

All bets are off if someone with Fedotenko's production is still toiling in our top six and we don't have anyone legit on the wings.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 12:35 PM
  #128
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,856
vCash: 500
I like the comparison, but I think Bouwmeester has much more god-given talent and hockey "IQ" than Letang. Even as a youngster in his first few years in the league, Bouwmeester was Drew Doughty-like and had great instincts/decision making skills.

Bouwmeester is a rare case of someone who can step into the NHL right away and still play solid defense.

Letang doesn't have that type of god-given hockey IQ - he's still prone to making a lot of bad decisions with the puck. His defensive zone coverage is still pretty poor too. I think his skating is probably his biggest strength.

cassius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 01:05 PM
  #129
lastcupever75
NY Roadkill
 
lastcupever75's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,353
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
We already did this with Staal to a certain extent which makes it even more important that we don't do it again and worsen our cap situation even more.
staal, fluery and gogo probably got a little more then they were worth at the time of signing...mostly for their potential. heck, even brooks was prolly worth closer to 3 then 3.75 at the time

i expect letang to fall place similarly

lastcupever75 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 01:18 PM
  #130
Super Reverse Homer
Registered User
 
Super Reverse Homer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Super Reverse Homer Send a message via MSN to Super Reverse Homer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Bouwmeester is actually a pretty good comparison for Letang. Not in terms of his worth on the open market at this stage of his career, but in terms of game. Bouwmeester is a little better skater (he's better than anyone in the league, quite frankly) and more polished defensively. Letang has the greater offensive upside and is also the more confident player with the puck. Bouwmeester's defensive-zone coverage is better.
This was you before this post -

This is you now -

Super Reverse Homer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 02:07 PM
  #131
CF Punk
Le Magnifique
 
CF Punk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Peterborough, ONT
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,641
vCash: 500
Honestly, if Letang thinks he's worth more than 3.5-3.75, then lets move him. He's been crap in our end this year and his offensive numbers are down.

CF Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 02:32 PM
  #132
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 12,791
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Honestly, if Letang thinks he's worth more than 3.5-3.75, then lets move him. He's been crap in our end this year and his offensive numbers are down.
I don't know how he gets more than $2.75 per year. That doesn't mean he won't be worth more later, but right now he is what he is plus maybe a little bit of extra cash for potential. Just because he's 21 and MIGHT end up being a poor man's Niedermayer doesn't mean he's anywhere close to that now.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 02:51 PM
  #133
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant In The Room View Post
This was you before this post -

This is you now -
Oh come no. Your mancrush for J-Bo exceeds the one I have for Staal...or Filatov...or Mats Zuccarello Aasen. I am sure there will be another soon.

And for the record, I love J-Bo. He's my favorite defenseman in the NHL.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 03:39 PM
  #134
Goalie_Bob
1992 Vezina (2nd)
 
Goalie_Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,460
vCash: 500
Kris Letang
GP: 67 G: 3 A: 24

Brooks Orpik
GP: 68 G: 1 A: 23

I think these stats show that a decent defenseman playing a good amount of minutes can get a contact high from the offensive talent on the Penguins. To me, Letang has good wheels and knows how to handle the puck but he displays a very mediocre offensive instinct. Combine that with the fact he can't one-time a puck, has pretty much no slap shot. Plus he has Erik Christensens' wrist shot. Aka, when he gets it on net it is nice but he misses the net 99% of the time.

He is way more of a project than Brooks Orpik was when he signed his current deal. To me, he is worth about 2.5mil a year. He is still young, he still has plenty of years to improve on his game but to me he shouldn’t be paid for his potential. Mostly because I think he is showing his potential right now.

Goalie_Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 05:59 PM
  #135
FDBluth
Registered User
 
FDBluth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 9,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie_Bob View Post
Kris Letang
GP: 67 G: 3 A: 24

Brooks Orpik
GP: 68 G: 1 A: 23

I think these stats show that a decent defenseman playing a good amount of minutes can get a contact high from the offensive talent on the Penguins. To me, Letang has good wheels and knows how to handle the puck but he displays a very mediocre offensive instinct. Combine that with the fact he can't one-time a puck, has pretty much no slap shot. Plus he has Erik Christensens' wrist shot. Aka, when he gets it on net it is nice but he misses the net 99% of the time.

He is way more of a project than Brooks Orpik was when he signed his current deal. To me, he is worth about 2.5mil a year. He is still young, he still has plenty of years to improve on his game but to me he shouldn’t be paid for his potential. Mostly because I think he is showing his potential right now.
Agree with pretty much everything here.

FDBluth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 08:39 PM
  #136
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Oh come no. Your mancrush for J-Bo exceeds the one I have for Staal...or Filatov...or Mats Zuccarello Aasen. I am sure there will be another soon.

And for the record, I love J-Bo. He's my favorite defenseman in the NHL.
Jay-Bo is one of the most overhyped and overrated d-man to come into the league in the past 5-6 years.

He's a great player who looks damned good out there on the ice, but he's still not a top 10 d-man IMO. He's got all the talent, skill, and god given abilities in the world, but he's really lacking in the character/grit/determination department.

cassius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 08:58 PM
  #137
hockeydadx2*
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,147
vCash: 500
The guy who posts here who hates Whitney, I can't remember his name. What's his avatar say?

Trust the Ray.

He'll figure things out.

hockeydadx2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 09:04 PM
  #138
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,052
vCash: 500
Yeah, trust the Ray.


HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 09:58 PM
  #139
Super Reverse Homer
Registered User
 
Super Reverse Homer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Super Reverse Homer Send a message via MSN to Super Reverse Homer
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Jay-Bo is one of the most overhyped and overrated d-man to come into the league in the past 5-6 years.

He's a great player who looks damned good out there on the ice, but he's still not a top 10 d-man IMO. He's got all the talent, skill, and god given abilities in the world, but he's really lacking in the character/grit/determination department.
Where oh where to begin.

Overhype no. Overrated you have got to be joking. Supremely disappointing in Calgary? Yes - but who hasn't been?

Bouw was a top 10 defenseman during his Florida stint. He didn't singlehandedly take Florida anywhere beyond basement-dwelling, but he was pretty much all Florida had during his 6 seasons there outside of Luongo and Horton. I don't know if you watched a lot of Florida games or not, but I did, and with enthusiasm, and I hate the Panthers. JBo was the only reason for me to watch that wretched team play.

In those 6 seasons I believe I saw a player who achieved a rarity - came in with hype and, like Ovy and Sid did after him, fully justified it. Bouwmeester had a solid rookie season and it took like 15 games before he was playing 22 mins a night shouldering a monumentally underwhelming defense. His partner was Mike Van Ryn who would have been the Panthers top defenseman in Bouw's rookie season. This is the equivalent of us having Janne Laukkanen as our #1. Bouwmeester anchored a defense consisting of such luminaries as Brad Ference, Lukas Krajicek, Branislav Mezei, and Steve Montador. All these guys played significant minutes in front of Luongo.

Aside from an extended sophomore slump marred by injuries, Bouwmeester's Florida tenure was a remarkable trajectory of progress. In his 6 seasons as a Panther Florida improved in the point standing every year. JayBo averaged over 24 minutes a night in his entire Panthers career, and played in every game outside of the 20 he missed in his sophomore year due to injuries. His game is entirely built around fluid skating and high defensive IQ. He isn't a punishing hitter like Orpik, and he is never going to be a bombs-away kind of guy from the point. But he is one of the smartest defensemen out there, and this was on exhibit from his rookie season and has only improved with experience. Bouwmeester rarely makes mistakes when the puck is on his stick and he is both quick enough and big enough to get it out of danger. His size, quickness, and ability to read and react to plays make him tough to play against for 24 plus minutes a night, and consistently so night after night.

If that doesn't scream #1 defenseman to me, I don't know what does. His consistency and durability made him a top 10 blueliner in the league during his Florida years.

Now I will admit that he's been totally un-Bouwmeester like in Calgary. He seems to have lost his offense entirely, he is constantly losing his assignments, and looks shaky when skating with the puck which was once an almost effortless thing for him. But that entire team has no offense to start with - Sutter's defense-first approach is now a defense-only approach. Bouwmeester seems to be forced into a solely goal-prevention role, and on that regards alone he is still doing fine. But Sutter's approach took a lot away from his puck moving 2-way game and his offense - which was never all that great to begin with I concede - became non-existent.

Given the right team, Bouwmeester is a top 10 defenseman and a true #1 guy. He is a beast in the defensive zone and is one of the best skaters in the league period. You put him on our team now, in his prime, and he will be the most complete defenseman the Pens have EVER had.

Super Reverse Homer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 10:34 PM
  #140
Tender Rip
No cap on coaching!
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,265
vCash: 500
My biggest reservation about Bouwmeester is that I have never seen him turn it up when the stakes are high (having never been to the playoffs is of course a big factor), and when he plays the Pens he frankly ends up Sid's ***** most of the time. Bouwmeester is a guy Sid just blows by. The problem for us when we face(d) Florida was/is Vokoun.

Anyway, last season with Florida when they held on to him at the deadline, he and the team withered away as the playoffs were very much in reach, and this season on Calgary once again he fails to raise his game down the stretch, going instead in the opposite direction, big time.

Obviously, he'd look very good on our blueline and he is a very good player, but I don't think he is close to deserving his present salary.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 10:42 PM
  #141
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,052
vCash: 500
Calgary is a weird place for defensemen, it seems.

HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2010, 10:48 PM
  #142
Super Reverse Homer
Registered User
 
Super Reverse Homer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Super Reverse Homer Send a message via MSN to Super Reverse Homer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
My biggest reservation about Bouwmeester is that I have never seen him turn it up when the stakes are high (having never been to the playoffs is of course a big factor), and when he plays the Pens he frankly ends up Sid's ***** most of the time. Bouwmeester is a guy Sid just blows by. The problem for us when we face(d) Florida was/is Vokoun.

Anyway, last season with Florida when they held on to him at the deadline, he and the team withered away as the playoffs were very much in reach, and this season on Calgary once again he fails to raise his game down the stretch, going instead in the opposite direction, big time.

Obviously, he'd look very good on our blueline and he is a very good player, but I don't think he is close to deserving his present salary.
There's only so much one man can do on a team like the Panthers. When Olli Jokinen is your team's all-time scoring leader and the only elite franchise player you've ever held onto is a goalie (aside from the 150 some games from an oft-injured Bure), there's only so much weight Bouwmeester can shoulder on his own.

If Letang develops half of JayBo's defensive game and consistency, he'd be deserving the 3.5 to 4 million we all think he will be asking for.

Super Reverse Homer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 12:07 AM
  #143
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant In The Room View Post
Where oh where to begin.

Overhype no. Overrated you have got to be joking. Supremely disappointing in Calgary? Yes - but who hasn't been?

Bouw was a top 10 defenseman during his Florida stint. He didn't singlehandedly take Florida anywhere beyond basement-dwelling, but he was pretty much all Florida had during his 6 seasons there outside of Luongo and Horton. I don't know if you watched a lot of Florida games or not, but I did, and with enthusiasm, and I hate the Panthers. JBo was the only reason for me to watch that wretched team play.

In those 6 seasons I believe I saw a player who achieved a rarity - came in with hype and, like Ovy and Sid did after him, fully justified it. Bouwmeester had a solid rookie season and it took like 15 games before he was playing 22 mins a night shouldering a monumentally underwhelming defense. His partner was Mike Van Ryn who would have been the Panthers top defenseman in Bouw's rookie season. This is the equivalent of us having Janne Laukkanen as our #1. Bouwmeester anchored a defense consisting of such luminaries as Brad Ference, Lukas Krajicek, Branislav Mezei, and Steve Montador. All these guys played significant minutes in front of Luongo.

Aside from an extended sophomore slump marred by injuries, Bouwmeester's Florida tenure was a remarkable trajectory of progress. In his 6 seasons as a Panther Florida improved in the point standing every year. JayBo averaged over 24 minutes a night in his entire Panthers career, and played in every game outside of the 20 he missed in his sophomore year due to injuries. His game is entirely built around fluid skating and high defensive IQ. He isn't a punishing hitter like Orpik, and he is never going to be a bombs-away kind of guy from the point. But he is one of the smartest defensemen out there, and this was on exhibit from his rookie season and has only improved with experience. Bouwmeester rarely makes mistakes when the puck is on his stick and he is both quick enough and big enough to get it out of danger. His size, quickness, and ability to read and react to plays make him tough to play against for 24 plus minutes a night, and consistently so night after night.

If that doesn't scream #1 defenseman to me, I don't know what does. His consistency and durability made him a top 10 blueliner in the league during his Florida years.

Now I will admit that he's been totally un-Bouwmeester like in Calgary. He seems to have lost his offense entirely, he is constantly losing his assignments, and looks shaky when skating with the puck which was once an almost effortless thing for him. But that entire team has no offense to start with - Sutter's defense-first approach is now a defense-only approach. Bouwmeester seems to be forced into a solely goal-prevention role, and on that regards alone he is still doing fine. But Sutter's approach took a lot away from his puck moving 2-way game and his offense - which was never all that great to begin with I concede - became non-existent.

Given the right team, Bouwmeester is a top 10 defenseman and a true #1 guy. He is a beast in the defensive zone and is one of the best skaters in the league period. You put him on our team now, in his prime, and he will be the most complete defenseman the Pens have EVER had.
I knew this post had to be about J-Bo or hot Asian women. Glad to see after further investigation that I was right.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 12:12 AM
  #144
Tender Rip
No cap on coaching!
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant In The Room View Post
There's only so much one man can do on a team like the Panthers.
I suppose my point is that I don't think he stood out as much, or is missed as much, as you want to make it appear. Nor are the other Florida defenders slouches. Guys like Allen and Ballard are good players, and McCabe is certainly an effective offensive player at least.
When you mention Jokinen... well, he was actually really good in Florida - at least if we aren't blaming Bouw for not dragging Florida to the playoffs we cannot do so with Olli either. Perhaps big fish in small pond syndrome is something they share.

On that - Joni Pitkanen vs. Jay Bouwmeester?

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 01:07 AM
  #145
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 12,791
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I suppose my point is that I don't think he stood out as much, or is missed as much, as you want to make it appear. Nor are the other Florida defenders slouches. Guys like Allen and Ballard are good players, and McCabe is certainly an effective offensive player at least.
When you mention Jokinen... well, he was actually really good in Florida - at least if we aren't blaming Bouw for not dragging Florida to the playoffs we cannot do so with Olli either. Perhaps big fish in small pond syndrome is something they share.

On that - Joni Pitkanen vs. Jay Bouwmeester?
We're picking one over the other? Bouwmeester for me. He's having an average year but believe it or not he's probably slow to get used to not having to do so much. When you're not the go to guy for every situation the adrenaline doesn't flow the same. Not making excuses just saying it's one year. Jokinen, if he did have big fish/little pond syndrome he would've been good in Phoenix. I used to like him a lot, though he was a half notch below Sundin, but now I don't know what to make of him. Just seems like he's worked really hard with no reward and he's just going through the motions now. Again not an excuse just speculating on what I see.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 01:36 AM
  #146
Super Reverse Homer
Registered User
 
Super Reverse Homer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Super Reverse Homer Send a message via MSN to Super Reverse Homer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I suppose my point is that I don't think he stood out as much, or is missed as much, as you want to make it appear. Nor are the other Florida defenders slouches. Guys like Allen and Ballard are good players, and McCabe is certainly an effective offensive player at least.
When you mention Jokinen... well, he was actually really good in Florida - at least if we aren't blaming Bouw for not dragging Florida to the playoffs we cannot do so with Olli either. Perhaps big fish in small pond syndrome is something they share.

On that - Joni Pitkanen vs. Jay Bouwmeester?
Florida had a solid group of top 6 forwards in Jokinen's last 2 seasons there. The emergence of Weiss and Booth complimented Jokinen and Horton, and while they didn't have any elite offensive talent that stood out (unless you count Jokinen as one), scoring goals wasn't their most pressing concern.

It was the defense that was problematic, and Bouwmeester was pretty much the lone bright spot on that blueline. Keep in mind that Ballard and McCabe didn't arrive until last season. For 6 seasons JayBo anchored that blueline alongside blazing skaters such as Karlis Skrastins, Ruslan Salei, Montador, Mezei, Jensen Cullimore, and Joel mother****ing Kwiatkowski (who was a regular on defense) - all speed demons for sure. Take away JayBo, Van Ryn, and the softer-than-Rozsival Lucas Kraijcek, and the Panthers hasn't had a legit defenseman that could skate with the puck in 6 seasons before McCabe came on.

I may give too much credit to JayBo, I know. But I do wonder how many first overall picks the Panthers would have had if they never had Bouwmeester. While I know that Luongo was a huge part of that team, I also lost count of how many times I saw JayBo bailing Luongo and that defense out with his consistently heads-up play.

Super Reverse Homer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 01:40 AM
  #147
Super Reverse Homer
Registered User
 
Super Reverse Homer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Super Reverse Homer Send a message via MSN to Super Reverse Homer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
and when he plays the Pens he frankly ends up Sid's ***** most of the time. Bouwmeester is a guy Sid just blows by.
Ray Bourque was Mario's ***** on a many nights, and I am not just talking about that awesome goal Lemieux scored after turning Bourque inside out. Doesn't make Bourque any less of a defenseman.

Super Reverse Homer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2010, 06:12 AM
  #148
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,255
vCash: 500
IMO JBO is one of those defenseman thats good at everything but great at nothing in terms of offense, defense and transition. I know his skating makes him look like he's in another league but in the end he just plays a solid game instead of being the game breaker. Maybe I'm just bitter because I like the Flames a little.

As far as Letang, if he can just play a solid game I would be very happy for the Pens to offer up $3 mill a year but he just doesn't do it. He makes a ton of mistakes and is always out of position. For what... between maybe 30 and 40 points a year? He doesn't even control the PP.

On the other side, I love how he competes, his abilities and how he can close gaps.

To me Letang is still a question mark and I don't want the Pens to overpay. If he pans out I wouldn't mind seeing him get Gonchar money but at least give us a great season first. IMO anything straying away from 2.25, 2.5, 2.75 over the next three years is overpay. He can more than double his bucks and prove himself over that time.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:54 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.