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Why Didn't The NHL Make A Better Offer?

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02-11-2005, 07:25 PM
  #1
Crazy Lunatic
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Why Didn't The NHL Make A Better Offer?

First off, I'm in full support of the NHL and its owners in their quest to show this overbearing, egomaniacal, selfish, money-grubbing players association that they should know their role and shut their mouths. There's no question that the NHLPA is living in outer space with their Dec.9 proposal given the financial state of the NHL. But that being said, even the most pro-owner fan has to think the NHL's last offer was terrible. Why not put some real pressure on the NHLPA with a decent cap offer. Why not a 50 million non-linkage cap that includes two way arbitration, lowered free agency age, higher entry level salary rates, and get rid of their 3 year max contracts stipulation?

As it stands, there is no way players could accept this offer. I really think the league could get its cap if they offered a decent deal. I really don't understand why they included so many poison pills in their offer. The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want the union to agree and are aiming at impass. There's no way they actually thought the union would accept a hard cap, linkage, elimination of arbitration, a 3 year max contract length, etc. all at the same time, did they?

 
Old
02-11-2005, 07:34 PM
  #2
iagreewithidiots
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Doesnt this belong in the rant thread?

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02-11-2005, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Doesnt this belong in the rant thread?
Just cause two of your "posts" belonged in the rant thread doesn't mean all posts do.

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02-11-2005, 07:48 PM
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barnburner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Lunatic
First off, I'm in full support of the NHL and its owners in their quest to show this overbearing, egomaniacal, selfish, money-grubbing players association that they should know their role and shut their mouths. There's no question that the NHLPA is living in outer space with their Dec.9 proposal given the financial state of the NHL. But that being said, even the most pro-owner fan has to think the NHL's last offer was terrible. Why not put some real pressure on the NHLPA with a decent cap offer. Why not a 50 million non-linkage cap that includes two way arbitration, lowered free agency age, higher entry level salary rates, and get rid of their 3 year max contracts stipulation?

As it stands, there is no way players could accept this offer. I really think the league could get its cap if they offered a decent deal. I really don't understand why they included so many poison pills in their offer. The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want the union to agree and are aiming at impass. There's no way they actually thought the union would accept a hard cap, linkage, elimination of arbitration, a 3 year max contract length, etc. all at the same time, did they?

When you make a proposal in these type negotiations, you don't walk in with your "best" numbers on the offer, because they will then be the starting point in the negotiations, thus the low trigger numbers. The problem is that Goodenow never had any intent of going with the 24% rollback - that is why he flatly rejected the proposal, and did not attempt to negotiate the triggers.
The offer was certainly reasonable as a negotiable proposal. Trying to raise the numbers in the offer was the responsibility of the association - not the nhl.
The NHLPA simply did not try.

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02-11-2005, 11:28 PM
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NHL made three offers, their last offer was the best. Why make the deal sweeter? It was about time the PA put in their worth into this deal.

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02-11-2005, 11:44 PM
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It wasn't a proposal to get them back on the ice, it was a proposal to bridge the philosophical gap and start negotiating again.

It didn't work, but I don't blame Bettman and co. for making that offer at that time.

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02-12-2005, 12:09 AM
  #7
Luc Labelle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Lunatic
I really don't understand why they included so many poison pills in their offer.
I have been very impressed with each subsequent NHL proposal. They are giving a little and taking away more with the poison pills. The bottom line has been that the best offer would be available last September 15 and as time goes on things will get worse. Fortunately the NHL has held strong to that credo.

Beyond that it gives points on which to negotiate. All the "poison pills" are not absolutely necessary. They just demonstrate that the NHL will not cave (you got that now Mr. Goodenow).

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02-12-2005, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jag68Vlady27
It wasn't a proposal to get them back on the ice, it was a proposal to bridge the philosophical gap and start negotiating again.

It didn't work, but I don't blame Bettman and co. for making that offer at that time.
Well said.

It was the dangled carrot (framework) that counts, not the rabbit pellets (trigers). Maybe the NHL was paving the way for the eleventh hour...JUST for Bob Goodenow, who has held out this long for just that...his playground. TICK TICK TICK!

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02-12-2005, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnburner
When you make a proposal in these type negotiations, you don't walk in with your "best" numbers on the offer, because they will then be the starting point in the negotiations, thus the low trigger numbers.

You don't start with you best offer, but you need to make one that at least makes the other side think. If the offer is so ridiculous that it gets turned down in 5 minutes and just angers the other side, making the offer is even worse that no offer at all.

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02-12-2005, 10:36 AM
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The NHL has done nothing but mock the players' ideas.

First they allow a tax inside their cap structure, insultingly adding that the tax could be implemented at the players' discretion. I mean, what is that supposed to be, exactly? Clearly a slap in the face.

Then they set their cap as "conditions" for the tax system to work. What do their triggers have to do with the players' Dec. proposal? Zippo. It was a total joke.

There's nothing there for the players to bargain with. Nothing.

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02-12-2005, 10:48 AM
  #11
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Don't forget their second proposal - just their first proposal with the inclusion of the PA's 24% rollback. Total joke.

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02-12-2005, 11:06 AM
  #12
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The league has been establishing who is in control. The insulting offers were designed to send a message and have done so. The tail had wagged the dog for far too long, so the only way to bring the PA back to reality was a few forceful slaps across the face.

They have done a fantastic job in this negotiation.

If, as seems the likeliest scenario, the NHL is able to get the PA to agree to a hard cap without linkage, it can't be viewed as anything but a huge victory for Bettman.

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02-12-2005, 11:41 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexicon Devil
Don't forget their second proposal - just their first proposal with the inclusion of the PA's 24% rollback. Total joke.
That being said, one total joke deserves another. And the players 24% non-solution was a complete farce.

 
Old
02-12-2005, 11:55 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
The league has been establishing who is in control. The insulting offers were designed to send a message and have done so. The tail had wagged the dog for far too long, so the only way to bring the PA back to reality was a few forceful slaps across the face.

They have done a fantastic job in this negotiation.

If, as seems the likeliest scenario, the NHL is able to get the PA to agree to a hard cap without linkage, it can't be viewed as anything but a huge victory for Bettman.
I loved Bill Watters analogy yesterday when he asked Jeff Marek = Jeffy, what conclusion would you draw after months of making the same basic offer: to this question = Bill to Jeffy, I have a dollar to give you = how do you want it = 4 quarters or 10 dimes? Jeffy = I would conclude that you only have a dollar to give me. Right on Jeffy! Now you get the point. Maybe he would have been more right to have said you are only willing to give me a dollar as you want to be "certain" of how much money you are willing to budget to give me.

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Old
02-12-2005, 01:37 PM
  #15
thinkwild
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Well Billy, you decide. Because if I let you choose between 10 dimes or 4 quarters, i know you'll end up giving me 50 nickels.

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Old
02-12-2005, 02:03 PM
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chriss_co
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
The NHL has done nothing but mock the players' ideas.

First they allow a tax inside their cap structure, insultingly adding that the tax could be implemented at the players' discretion. I mean, what is that supposed to be, exactly? Clearly a slap in the face.

Then they set their cap as "conditions" for the tax system to work. What do their triggers have to do with the players' Dec. proposal? Zippo. It was a total joke.

There's nothing there for the players to bargain with. Nothing.
Sometimes a slap in the face will bring you back to reality... clearly the players have been disillusioned that the league can survive with their ridiculous salaries (that a few owners have inflated.. not the entire league... if that were the case then they deserve to live with high player salaries)

Nonetheless, the players and the PA have taken all the wrong steps in this lockout... the longer they wait, the less they will get in the end.. the best offer they could have received would have come 2 years ago when Bettman went to the PA to start negotiations.. during that time, Bettman would have been satisfied with a steady luxory tax with linkage.. but the PA refused (thinking that they could score a weak luxory tax because they thought the owners were weak)..

plus, with the PA's inability to even consider and counterpropose the league's offers (who cares how ridiculous you make them, just make them!!) means the league has a very good case of impasse with the NLRB... which means, the union is toast... and the players will get even less!

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Old
02-12-2005, 02:26 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Lunatic
That being said, one total joke deserves another. And the players 24% non-solution was a complete farce.
It wasn't meant as the end result .. Its purpose was a good faith gesture to get negotiations going and the parties back to the bargaining table ..

They did not expect it to be the final solution .. They made numerous concessions from the old CBA and wanted to see some movement on the NHL side and non has come ..

Look what the NHLPA got to work with in the counter proposal .. Nothing ..No room for even discussion ..

To me it gives the impression that the NHLPA proposal was to get talks started and the NHL proposal to get them stopped .. In your own words above Poison Pills etc. If a Cap is the goal then they should have put some real enticing Pills in to bridge the gap IMO ..


Last edited by Mess: 02-12-2005 at 02:43 PM.
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Old
02-12-2005, 02:30 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriss_co
Sometimes a slap in the face will bring you back to reality... clearly the players have been disillusioned that the league can survive with their ridiculous salaries (that a few owners have inflated.. not the entire league... if that were the case then they deserve to live with high player salaries)

It's not just a few owners, almost every team that isn't a recent expansion team has given out at least one bone head deal.

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