Well once Z can play on defense as well as a forward, then maybe we can talk about him in the same breath with Feds. People are forgetting Bowman also used him as a defenseman.
That's not a good way to measure either player's defensive abilities. Derek Meech plays defense; that doesn't make him better than Zetterberg defensively. Fedorov had the tools to play defense -- the skating ability and the cannon. Zetterberg doesn't have those things.
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From a GM, "Detroit is the best team we've played this year. It's not even close. Their puck control is incredible...You have to hope your goalie has a great night to give you a chance."
Feds wins because he was 10x more physically gifted than Z. His speed, size, and natural ability just made him that much harder to shut down. If Z had Feds physical attributes I'd take him, but he does not. Now with that said if you look just at the playoffs I think its a closer than some might like. People say that Feds offensive numbers mean more because he played in the dead puck era, which is true. The same however could be said of Z's playoff numbers because the competition (especially in the West) is a lot higher. The teams that make the playoffs as the lower seeds I think are signifcantly better than the teams in the late 90s. I'd also say the Pens are much better than the Canes and Capitals as far as SC opponents go. I mean in general the West consisted of the Avs, Stars, and Wings. Everyone else was a huge step below. I don't think that is true anymore. Also I'd say that Forsberg was definitly Fed's Getzlaf. Also in general the playoffs really aren't that much less clutch and grabby than pre-lockout years. The Ducks teams of 07 and 09 were as bad as any pre-lockout team, and the Flames, Stars, Penguins, and Oilers weren't far behind.
No, Z is not better than Feds defensively. He's a hard worker but Feds was a Red Army-developed center. Who wrote the book on two-way play and puck possession?
Feds is perhaps the best two-way player to ever play hockey, not just on the Wings.
And Feds is definitely more of the lady's man.
Edit: Bure was asked about the Bure-Feds-Mogilny line, and who was the best scorer. Bure laughed that Feds was the defensive guy. It's funny because I think Feds had the stronger overall stats-- especially playoffs. I'll let someone else dig up the numbers. (Obviously noting Bure's shortened career, and that Feds played on a defensively-oriented Bowman-appointed Wings/center.)
I agree that Fedorov was better defensively that Z. However, I don't think the gap was very big, and if not for Fedorov's speed he wouldn't have been the better of the two. Z is a far, far harder worker than Fedorov ever was. But when someone is disciplined and can skate as effortlessly as Sergei did, effort isn't enough to bridge the gap.
As far as offense, Fedorov was certainly not devoid of talent but he also wasn't a pure scorer, nor did he have elite puck skills. He reached 40 goals just once, and had more than 35 just three times. Fedorov never scored 30+ in more than four consecutive seasons. Z's numbers, outside of the one Hart trophy year Fedorov had, compare quite favorably to Fedorov's.
What I say about both is that neither are generational greats, like Crosby, AO and Datsyuk are. Fedorov created offense with speed and turnovers, and Hank does it with effort (IMO a lot like Forsberg in his prime). Using those means they get some good results. But outside of brief stretches, they don't have the skill to rank among the game's greats for any length of time. They're not the type to compete for the scoring title on an annual basis.
I also think it, then, hyperbole to say that Fedorov was the best two-way player of all time. His offensive side was lacking to earn that accolade, IMO. Is being the best defensive forward of his generation while possessing above average offensive ability enough to make him the best? I think that holds only of someone is weighting defense more, which I personally don't do. Defense can be taught, offense can't. So I believe that offense should count more.
-OT
I'm not a lady, but I think Emma disagrees with your comment about Fedorov being more a lady's man. I honestly think Fedorov's record in that area is quite suspect. He pursued a scandalously underage girl at one point, and has Tara Reid on his history. Ouch.
Nope, as a guy I have to say that Z has been far more successful in this area.
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Originally Posted by Winger98
Fedorov also had to bulldog his way through the deadpuck area on the offensive end. We all griped about the crap Hal Gill got away with but that pales in comparison to what used to be done by everybody in the name of defense.
1. The game has opened up a little, but not much. The goalies are better now than they've ever been. Players are in far better physical condition than they've ever been. So, on balance I don't think there's much disparity. Fedorov had teammates (Shanny, Yzerman) who were scoring 40+ goals when he was not, while other players around the NHL were scorching the score sheet to the tun of 50 or 60 goals.
2. Fedorov had better talent around him for most of his career. Count the HoF players he had as linemates in his prime, and compare it to Z's situation. Huge difference.
Last edited by doublejack: 04-01-2010 at 12:43 PM.
1. The game has opened up a little, but not much. The goalies are better now than they've ever been. Players are in far better physical condition than they've ever been. So, on balance I don't think there's much disparity. Fedorov had teammates (Shanny, Yzerman) who were scoring 40+ goals when he was not, while other players around the NHL were scorching the score sheet to the tun of 50 or 60 goals.
2. Fedorov had better talent around him for most of his career. Count the HoF players he had as linemates in his prime, and compare it to Z's situation. Huge difference.
I don't think the goalies are that much better. There was a lot of good goalies in the 90's. But we have gotten a little bit wider core of goalies. The physical conditions is better. Agreed.
But, the most improved part most be the defensive play. Before people would argue who is the best d-man. Can he slot into your top two? Or in some cases four. Now argues go to top 6. Is he a top 6 d-man? The overall defensive players have gotten much better. And teams are much more aware of systems to play or play against.
Fedorov also had to bulldog his way through the deadpuck area on the offensive end. We all griped about the crap Hal Gill got away with but that pales in comparison to what used to be done by everybody in the name of defense.
It was WAY easier to be a successful defensive forward in the deadpuck era, you could hook, trip and hold whoever had the puck - it's a whole other deal today.
They both do the same thing in different ways. Z accomplishes it with iron will. He is a leader and will wear the C after Lidstrom. Feds in his prime was a freak athlete of a hockey player. Blazing fast, good instincts in all zones, hard and accurate shot.
Didn't Bowman put Fedorov on defense as sort of a "punishment" for what he saw as lackluster effort? I also recall that Fedorov was kind of perplexed by the whole thing. I think that's why he ultimately took less money to leave. Am I misremembering things?
Fedorov had physical skills on a level that Hank will never be able to match. Hank, on the other hand, has something that Sergei never had. Hank is one the most relentless players I've ever seen.
They have different styles. Sergei is like the classmate you had that got great grades because he was so freaking smart; he didn't always have to try that hard. Hank is the guy that had to pull all-nighters just to pass.
They have different styles. Sergei is like the classmate you had that got great grades because he was so freaking smart; he didn't always have to try that hard. Hank is the guy that had to pull all-nighters just to pass.
I like the way you put this, I think it's very accurate.
By the way, how's the South Lyon Hotel holding up these days?
Didn't Bowman put Fedorov on defense as sort of a "punishment" for what he saw as lackluster effort? I also recall that Fedorov was kind of perplexed by the whole thing. I think that's why he ultimately took less money to leave. Am I misremembering things?
Fedorov had physical skills on a level that Hank will never be able to match. Hank, on the other hand, has something that Sergei never had. Hank is one the most relentless players I've ever seen.
They have different styles. Sergei is like the classmate you had that got great grades because he was so freaking smart; he didn't always have to try that hard. Hank is the guy that had to pull all-nighters just to pass.
Fedorov is the better offensive talent. No doubt about it.
Zetterberg though has shown to be the more consistent playoff performer. His Conn Smythe trophy pretty much sums up how he's been in the playoffs. I believe he's been our most consistent forward in the playoffs the last 4 seasons. Sergei had a tendency to disappear here and there, and for some reason did never find the kind of offensive success Z has.
In terms of defensive play, Feds' speed and smarts allowed him to be in good positions. Z is the better man on man marker and good with his stick. Fedorov played in the dead puck era, Z plays in the no obstruction era.
Tough one. Both great players. Feds' upside was greater as he could make your eyes explode with what he could do with the puck, but Z is more consistent in terms of always being good when it matters.
Fedorov is the better offensive talent. No doubt about it.
Zetterberg though has shown to be the more consistent playoff performer. His Conn Smythe trophy pretty much sums up how he's been in the playoffs. I believe he's been our most consistent forward in the playoffs the last 4 seasons. Sergei had a tendency to disappear here and there, and for some reason did never find the kind of offensive success Z has.
In terms of defensive play, Feds' speed and smarts allowed him to be in good positions. Z is the better man on man marker and good with his stick. Fedorov played in the dead puck era, Z plays in the no obstruction era.
Tough one. Both great players. Feds' upside was greater as he could make your eyes explode with what he could do with the puck, but Z is more consistent in terms of always being good when it matters.
A lot of these guys are new hockey fans who only started watching hockey five years ago.
Get off my lawn!
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They weren't really paying much attention to the game when Feds was in his prime and all they hear is how he was talented but lazy.
Yeah, if they were paying attention to the game back when Feds was in his prime they could have heard... uh, how he was talented and lazy live instead of having to read about it?
Dude was talented. Dude was lazy. It is what it is. Revisionist history either from you or hockey fans still in 4T pants doesn't really impact that.
Now, the idea that Zetterberg is as good as Fedorov is quite a stretch, but they are comparable players in that their games share a number of similarities. Feds was 'just' more physically gifted than Zetterberg is.
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It's why so many Americans, to this day, believe Saddam Hussein was involved in 9-11.
Yeah, if they were paying attention to the game back when Feds was in his prime they could have heard... uh, how he was talented and lazy live instead of having to read about it?
Dude was talented. Dude was lazy. It is what it is. Revisionist history either from you or hockey fans still in 4T pants doesn't really impact that.
Now, the idea that Zetterberg is as good as Fedorov is quite a stretch, but they are comparable players in that their games share a number of similarities. Feds was 'just' more physically gifted than Zetterberg is.
Yeah, if they were paying attention to the game back when Feds was in his prime they could have heard... uh, how he was talented and lazy live instead of having to read about it?
Dude was talented. Dude was lazy. It is what it is. Revisionist history either from you or hockey fans still in 4T pants doesn't really impact that.
Now, the idea that Zetterberg is as good as Fedorov is quite a stretch, but they are comparable players in that their games share a number of similarities. Feds was 'just' more physically gifted than Zetterberg is.
Rachel Maddow for Senate!
When Datsyuk and Zetterberg start every season slow, is it because they are lazy?
Is it because they don't show up?
Is it because they are flakes?
Nah... everyone just assumes Zetterberg is playing hurt. Must be that back problem. Or that wrist injury is flaring up.
Maybe it's that he just really really didn't feel like giving 100 percent on that night.
The fact is that over the course of a season, everyone has games where they don't show up. It's human nature.
Really, if you reduce things to just talking playoffs, IMO you actually narrow the gap between the two guys rather than widen it.
Zetterberg's production in 2008 and 2009 were both as good or better than Fedorov was ever able to in Detroit in his career in terms of total points, and the only time in his career Feds did better ppg in the playoffs was 1995.
Zetterberg has 39 playoff goals in 85 games. Fedorov has 52 playoff goals in 182 playoff games. Fedorov got over 2/3rds of his postseason production from assists, while Z has gotten less than 50% of his points via assist.
The regular season is where Fedorov made a lot of his hay, because he could lollygag through most of a season and still be incredibly productive. That's not the case with Z, who lacks Fedorov's high-end physical talents.
Once you get to the postseason, I honestly think Z's a much closer to equivalent player. I'd probably still give a slight edge to Fedorov, but only that because he's had the much longer career upon which to make that assessment. If Z continues to produce at the level he has the past few playoffs he'll surpass Fedorov in four or five years.
Most fans say Fedorov was lazy when he gives subpar performances, most fans say Zetterberg must be injured when he gives subpar performances. Who knows if these opinions from the fans are correct.
If you look at it from the perspective of whose A+ game is better than the others A+ game, Fedorov wins hands down. Basically anything Zetterberg can do with his A+ game Fedorov can do, but he has on his side a significant physical/size advantage, and the fact that when he is on, its very easy to make an argument that he was one of the top 3 fastest skaters in the NHL during his time.
The owner, Paul Baker. died a couple years ago. he was a great guy.
Yeah, he and my parents were good friends. My family had several events at Bakers of Milford over the years. Haven't been back to the SL Hotel in a few years though.
To be on topic, from a guy's perspective, Zetterberg is the "cooler iceman." That beard trumps anything Fedorov brings to the table.
