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NHL's trigger hit after 2 years, not immediately!

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Old
02-13-2005, 12:03 PM
  #26
Gary
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Just for the record about Pronger, love him or hate him, he has a Hart trophy, A Norris and countless Injuries. He is not an underachiever.

He does not deserve 8 million a season... but he is no underachiever. He is probably the best Defensman aside from Nik Lidstrom for our Era.

I say no season. I think the PA thinks there is just far too much money and time. They are grossly overestimating both.
Oh, I don't know-I'd put Chara on that shortlist too...

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02-13-2005, 12:28 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by likea
I want everyone to realize that EVERY proposal to come out in the media has been 100% wrong....just remember that going into today...that also includes all of eklunds proposals posted on his site

the 2 things he has gotten correct was the meeting in Toronto on wed. and he said it could be secret and it was

even Burke and Mckenzie have been way off on proposals except for the one in which the NHL released to Burke early
Even the one that Bill Daly told the media the NHL made??

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02-13-2005, 12:36 PM
  #28
ScottyBowman
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Probably not true. If there's, let's say, a $42 million cap, I find it very unlikely any team is going to put nearly 20 percent of its entire payroll into one player, especially a defenseman. That's akin to an NFL team giving one of its players a deal with a $16 million cap hit. Won't happen.
Um... That happens all the time. Their are plenty of guys in the NBA making $15 mil a year and their cap is around $46 mil. Sorry to burst your bubble about the NFL, but the Colts took an $18 mil cap hit on Manning this year.

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02-13-2005, 12:55 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Just for the record about Pronger, love him or hate him, he has a Hart trophy, A Norris and countless Injuries. He is not an underachiever.

He does not deserve 8 million a season... but he is no underachiever. He is probably the best Defensman aside from Nik Lidstrom for our Era.

I say no season. I think the PA thinks there is just far too much money and time. They are grossly overestimating both.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am not saying that Pronger isn't an elite defenseman. Would I put him right behind Lidstrom? No. But regardless, for someone making $8-$10m/year he is without question underachieving and I don't care about the injuries, the fact he is injury prone should've gone into the equation when the owners decided to pay him that much money.

Being a Habs fan, Theodore has a Hart and a Vezina, but I wouldn't put him behind Roy, Brodeur, Belfour blah blah blah as the what ever ranked goalie of our generation.

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02-13-2005, 01:17 PM
  #30
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Mediocre doesn't decribe either of those two players. While I hate their comments I have to say that they are both Star cailber players who are still overpaid.

Pronger is probably 3rd given his injury status the last couple of years to Lidstrom and Blake, but he has been dominant when noty injured. Is he worth 10million? No, but if there is a cap he will lose that so self interest affects his judgement on this.

Guerin is a gritty powerforward who can score 40 goals for you, but is he worth $9 million? Again no, in my opinion, but he is entitles to his opinion about these thing.

I think the NHPA's Decisions are defintly made with the Star players in mind and not the best interest of the union membership as a whole. I have made various post in teh last few days regarding my opinion of that tactic.

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02-13-2005, 01:35 PM
  #31
CarlRacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman
Um... That happens all the time. Their are plenty of guys in the NBA making $15 mil a year and their cap is around $46 mil. Sorry to burst your bubble about the NFL, but the Colts took an $18 mil cap hit on Manning this year.
Umm ... no. Perhaps you should check your facts before you post.
Peyton Manning earned a base salary of $535,000 this year. His new seven-year contract included a $34.5 million bonus. So that's another $4.92 million against the cap this year. Ergo, his 2004 cap hit was about $5.45 million. Nice try, though.

As for the NBA, keep in mind that's a soft cap that allows teams to go over the cap to sign their own players. Even so, the NBA has exactly four guys earning over $15 million this year, three of whom are paid that much under long-term deals signed before the most recent CBA and the fourth whose high salary is a result of his pre-CBA high salary. Four out of 360 (i.e. 1.1 percent) players hardly qualifies as "plenty." The NBA also has a maximum salary which, depending on how long a player's been in the league, ranges from $10.9 to $15.3 million.

http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml

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02-13-2005, 01:39 PM
  #32
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He does not deserve 8 million a season... but he is no underachiever. He is probably the best Defensman aside from Nik Lidstrom for our Era.
Scott Stevens.

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Old
02-13-2005, 01:49 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Umm ... no. Perhaps you should check your facts before you post.
Peyton Manning earned a base salary of $535,000 this year. His new seven-year contract included a $34.5 million bonus. So that's another $4.92 million against the cap this year. Ergo, his 2004 cap hit was about $5.45 million. Nice try, though.

As for the NBA, keep in mind that's a soft cap that allows teams to go over the cap to sign their own players. Even so, the NBA has exactly four guys earning over $15 million this year, three of whom are paid that much under long-term deals signed before the most recent CBA and the fourth whose high salary is a result of his pre-CBA high salary. Four out of 360 (i.e. 1.1 percent) players hardly qualifies as "plenty." The NBA also has a maximum salary which, depending on how long a player's been in the league, ranges from $10.9 to $15.3 million.

http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml
So you don't think that in the new NHL, Pronger won't get his money either in salary or a creative signing bonus? The stars don't have to worry about getting their money, even if it has to come at the expense of a mid range player. I'd rather have a Pronger or a Lidstrom on the ice and give them heaps of ice time than have two ok defencemen any day of the week

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02-13-2005, 01:50 PM
  #34
ScottyBowman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Umm ... no. Perhaps you should check your facts before you post.
Peyton Manning earned a base salary of $535,000 this year. His new seven-year contract included a $34.5 million bonus. So that's another $4.92 million against the cap this year. Ergo, his 2004 cap hit was about $5.45 million. Nice try, though.

As for the NBA, keep in mind that's a soft cap that allows teams to go over the cap to sign their own players. Even so, the NBA has exactly four guys earning over $15 million this year, three of whom are paid that much under long-term deals signed before the most recent CBA and the fourth whose high salary is a result of his pre-CBA high salary. Four out of 360 (i.e. 1.1 percent) players hardly qualifies as "plenty." The NBA also has a maximum salary which, depending on how long a player's been in the league, ranges from $10.9 to $15.3 million.

http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml

Damn. I love proving people wrong

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...len&id=1748909

The Colts designated Manning as their exclusive "franchise" player on Feb. 23, meaning that no other team could negotiate with him but also resulting in a record $18.4 million salary cap charge for the 2004 season.

Manning had a cap charge in excess of $15 million for 2003.

Oh but wait. I want to prove you WRONG again.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

How many guys are making $15 mi? I'd say quite a few unless you want to get picky and count people making $14,650,000. I also hope you do realize that nba contracts are structured so a player gets an increase of 10% each year.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Thanks for playing Carl.

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Old
02-13-2005, 01:56 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman
Damn. I love proving people wrong

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...len&id=1748909

The Colts designated Manning as their exclusive "franchise" player on Feb. 23, meaning that no other team could negotiate with him but also resulting in a record $18.4 million salary cap charge for the 2004 season.

Manning had a cap charge in excess of $15 million for 2003.

Oh but wait. I want to prove you WRONG again.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

How many guys are making $15 mi? I'd say quite a few unless you want to get picky and count people making $14,650,000. I also hope you do realize that nba contracts are structured so a player gets an increase of 10% each year.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Thanks for playing Carl.

Didn't the Colts lift the franchise tag from Manning before they resigned him? If you sign a franchised player to a long-term deal then you're not allowed to franchise anyone else until that deal is concluded, no? (IE, Colts can't franchise anyone else until Manning's deal is expired). Since I believe there's been talk about franchising James this year coupled with the practical lunacy of throwing away your franchise tag for nearly a decade, I suspect Carl is actually right.

This is what Atlanta did two years ago when acquiring and signing the franchised-tagged Peerless Price from Buffalo.

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Old
02-13-2005, 02:02 PM
  #36
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To back up my statement about the Franchise tag.



NFL CBA, Section XX, Article 9


Quote:
Section 9. Duration of Designation: (a) Each Club that signs a player it designated as a Franchise Player to a Player Contract shall be deemed each League Year thereafter to have utilized its Franchise Player designation for each League Year for which such player entered into a Player Contract with such Club at the time when such player was subject to such designation (unless the Club exercised a Right of First Refusal with respect to a Franchise Player tendered a Player Contract pursuant to Sections 2(b)(ii) or


Page 74

2(c)(i) above, in which case the Club shall be deemed to have utilized its Franchise Player designation only in the League Year of the designation). For example, without limitation on any other applicable example, a Franchise Player who signs a Player Contract for two League Years at a time when the player was subject to the designation shall be deemed to be the Club's Franchise Player for both such League Years. However, in the event that the designated player retires or suffers a career-ending injury (or an injury that prevents or will prevent the player from playing in 32 consecutive regular season games) which prevents him from playing a contract year entered into while under such designation (or is unavailable for the season due to non-injury circumstances beyond the control of the Club), such Club shall be permitted to designate another player in lieu of such injured, retired or unavailable player for each remaining League Year covered by the Club's prior designation for such player, provided that the Club designates a new Franchise Player during the designation period prior to the first League Year to be covered by the redesignation.

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Old
02-13-2005, 02:07 PM
  #37
CarlRacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman
Damn. I love proving people wrong

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...len&id=1748909

The Colts designated Manning as their exclusive "franchise" player on Feb. 23, meaning that no other team could negotiate with him but also resulting in a record $18.4 million salary cap charge for the 2004 season.

Manning had a cap charge in excess of $15 million for 2003.

Oh but wait. I want to prove you WRONG again.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

How many guys are making $15 mi? I'd say quite a few unless you want to get picky and count people making $14,650,000. I also hope you do realize that nba contracts are structured so a player gets an increase of 10% each year.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Thanks for playing Carl.

Having problems reading today, Scott?
From the ESPN story you linked:

"Manning's new contract, however, should permit the Colts to conduct business as usual and to make qualifying offers to their restricted free agents before the deadline. It is believed that, when Manning signs the contract, his salary cap charge for '04 will now be more than halved."

In other words, had the Colts been forced to pay Manning as their franchise player, the cap hit would have been $18.4 million. However, the Colts and Manning instead agreed to a long-term deal, allowing them to remove the franchise tag and cutting the cap figure more than half. Get it, or is this math stuff a little tricky?

Now, here's a Washington Post piece written more than two months later after the contract details came out (unlike the ESPN story you linked):

"The contract calls for Manning to pocket all $34.5 million of the signing bonus by March 5, 2005. It begins with modest salaries of $535,000 for the upcoming season and $665,000 in 2005, but has roster bonuses of $9 million in 2006 and $10 million in 2007 to go with salaries of $1 million for each of those years."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May17.html

Now, let's do the math. A $535,000 base salary plus one-seventh of a $34.5 million bonus = $5.45 million.

Is this where I insert a smiley to show how cool I am?

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Old
02-13-2005, 02:22 PM
  #38
ScottyBowman
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Having problems reading today, Scott?
From the ESPN story you linked:

"Manning's new contract, however, should permit the Colts to conduct business as usual and to make qualifying offers to their restricted free agents before the deadline. It is believed that, when Manning signs the contract, his salary cap charge for '04 will now be more than halved."

In other words, had the Colts been forced to pay Manning as their franchise player, the cap hit would have been $18.4 million. However, the Colts and Manning instead agreed to a long-term deal, allowing them to remove the franchise tag and cutting the cap figure more than half. Get it, or is this math stuff a little tricky?

Now, here's a Washington Post piece written more than two months later after the contract details came out (unlike the ESPN story you linked):

"The contract calls for Manning to pocket all $34.5 million of the signing bonus by March 5, 2005. It begins with modest salaries of $535,000 for the upcoming season and $665,000 in 2005, but has roster bonuses of $9 million in 2006 and $10 million in 2007 to go with salaries of $1 million for each of those years."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May17.html

Now, let's do the math. A $535,000 base salary plus one-seventh of a $34.5 million bonus = $5.45 million.

Is this where I insert a smiley to show how cool I am?

It says RIGHT in your article

It begins with modest salaries of $535,000 for the upcoming season and $665,000 in 2005, but has roster bonuses of $9 million in 2006 and $10 million in 2007 to go with salaries of $1 million for each of those years. Its salary cap value jumps to $17.766 million in 2006.

My article even said that the Colts took at $13.5 mil hit in 2003. Again, you said that nobody in the NFl would take a huge hit and its obvious that the Colts did in 2003 and will do so in 2006.

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02-13-2005, 02:30 PM
  #39
CarlRacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman
It says RIGHT in your article

It begins with modest salaries of $535,000 for the upcoming season and $665,000 in 2005, but has roster bonuses of $9 million in 2006 and $10 million in 2007 to go with salaries of $1 million for each of those years. Its salary cap value jumps to $17.766 million in 2006.

My article even said that the Colts took at $13.5 mil hit in 2003. Again, you said that nobody in the NFl would take a huge hit and its obvious that the Colts did in 2003 and will do so in 2006.
Do you read your own posts Scott? This started with you claiming the Colts took a $18 million cap hit on Manning this year. That obviously is false. Changing the subject to a $13.5 million hit a year ago or a $17 million hit in two years doesn't change that.

But let's talk about that $17 million hit in 2006, since you bring it up. First, it's based largely on a $9 million roster bonus, which will almost assuredly be converted to a signing bonus under an upcoming restructured deal. This is how teams oeprate. That will cut the cap hit in half, at least.
Second, the NFL cap in 2006 - based on history and new TV deals starting that year - will be well over $100 million. Even if the hit is at $17 million (which it won't, for reasons stated above), that's still well short the 20 percent of the cap allocation you're talking about Pronger getting.

p.s. In case you were wondering, that $13.5 million cap hit in 2003 is still under the 20 percent you think Pronger will get. And that's for a league MVP quarterback, which is significantly more important for a football team than a defenseman is for a hockey team.


Last edited by CarlRacki: 02-13-2005 at 02:36 PM.
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02-13-2005, 02:47 PM
  #40
ScottyBowman
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Do you read your own posts Scott? This started with you claiming the Colts took a $18 million cap hit on Manning this year. That obviously is false. Changing the subject to a $13.5 million hit a year ago or a $17 million hit in two years doesn't change that.

But let's talk about that $17 million hit in 2006, since you bring it up. First, it's based largely on a $9 million roster bonus, which will almost assuredly be converted to a signing bonus under an upcoming restructured deal. This is how teams oeprate. That will cut the cap hit in half, at least.
Second, the NFL cap in 2006 - based on history and new TV deals starting that year - will be well over $100 million. Even if the hit is at $17 million (which it won't, for reasons stated above), that's still well short the 20 percent of the cap allocation you're talking about Pronger getting.

p.s. In case you were wondering, that $13.5 million cap hit in 2003 is still under the 20 percent you think Pronger will get. And that's for a league MVP quarterback, which is significantly more important for a football team than a defenseman is for a hockey team.

Whatever. You can argue percentages all you want. My point is that great players will still get paid big bucks. Pronger will get his $8 mil because he can play 30 mins a game and can play both sides without being a liability.

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